freeidaho Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I'm not saying this point change is about getting or being old. From what HQ has said in private and in public, it is not. None-the-less the "dinosaur" term is very interesting, but it seems those using the term as a derogative haven't thought much about it. There are two ways the young don't become "dinosaurs" themselves. The smuggness and ignorance of youth doesn't ever seem to get that unless they screw up big time, they too will get old. They also don't get that it will happen much faster than they think. Or, they give up shooting and move on to bingo or some such. If neither of those things happen, the young will soon enough be "dinosaurs" listening to the smuggness and ignorance of youth, and shaking their head too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I look at the new rule as a challenge to develop the skills to be both fast and accurate. Some may not have or be able to refine their shooting skills to be both fast and accurate, there are other shooting games that may be better suited to their particular skillset. I enjoy participating in several different shooting styles and have found that the secret to enjoying each one is to not try to make one into the other, just enjoy them for what they are or just move along. My main rule is to have fun and if it isn't fun I do something else and vote with my feet by leaving. I am looking forward to the new rule and the challenge. By the way, the tortoise did win in the story. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 This Sir, is a quotable quote. Nicely written. Thank you ! ! ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillR1 Posted November 27, 2015 Share Posted November 27, 2015 I look at the new rule as a challenge to develop the skills to be both fast and accurate. Some may not have or be able to refine their shooting skills to be both fast and accurate, there are other shooting games that may be better suited to their particular skillset. I enjoy participating in several different shooting styles and have found that the secret to enjoying each one is to not try to make one into the other, just enjoy them for what they are or just move along. My main rule is to have fun and if it isn't fun I do something else and vote with my feet by leaving. I am looking forward to the new rule and the challenge. By the way, the tortoise did win in the story. ;-) VERY well said!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyback Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 lol I like the way you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted November 28, 2015 Share Posted November 28, 2015 tweaking the scoring, actually your penalty for inaccuracy, isn't one of the things that makes idpa special and different from uspsa. if anything it brings it closer to what happens to you in uspsa, the thing people who haven't shot much of call the hoser sport. I think the "hoser sport" notion is more about target difficulty than scoring details. With 18 round maximum Idpa stages and tight limits on total movement you need shot placement challenges to keep things interesting, it is also more difficult to find ways to make significant time on people if you choose to be bold about trading accuracy for speed, it is also more challenging to be accurate while contorted to shoot around cover. I have had the privilege of enjoying local and major matches in both sports, it has been my experience that Idpa is more of an accuracy sport and uspsa is more of a speed sport, it has also been my experience that the particular person(s) doing the stage design dictate the type of match you will shoot so you can find tough accuracy matches either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowPower Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 I've only been shooting IDPA for a year and a half. I thought I was a decent shooter, just shooting at the "square" range about once a month for the past 15 years. Then I shot my first IDPA match and immediately realized that my shooting was not very good or realistic. I've since made significant progress shooting faster (recoil control, seeing more but only what I need to see, etc). I'd hate to think that I would have been stuck in my fantasy world of slow fire had I started shooting IDPA with the new point equal seconds rule. I think the spray and pray shooter will just spray a pray more rounds instead of "slowing down". Might even try to go faster and perhaps not really suffer in points down on most of the stages. Seem counter to the stated intention of the rule. Again, I'm so glad I starting IDPA when I did, so I didn't fall into that trap either. Most of all, I'm thankful for all the good shooters and forums like this in sharing their knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyback Posted November 29, 2015 Share Posted November 29, 2015 Concur; this one is an outstanding resource. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted November 30, 2015 Share Posted November 30, 2015 Those shooters who know what their front sight looks like will not suffer greatly under the D-1 one second Rule. They will just slow down a 'small beat' and shoot -0s. The ones who think the faster they go the better they are will be disappointed. The "Day of the Gazelle" may be over. I have no real idea why this D-1 = one second Rule was enacted. But, it will give older, more experienced, but slower foot work shooters a better chance. If that was the idea behind the Rule, it works. As a Distinguished Senior (MA SSP/BUG) I kinda like it. But, it does make IDPA more like ICORE, except with more bullets in the gun. Whatever the intention originally was that will be the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I'm not saying this point change is about getting or being old. From what HQ has said in private and in public, it is not. None-the-less the "dinosaur" term is very interesting, but it seems those using the term as a derogative haven't thought much about it. There are two ways the young don't become "dinosaurs" themselves. The smuggness and ignorance of youth doesn't ever seem to get that unless they screw up big time, they too will get old. They also don't get that it will happen much faster than they think. Or, they give up shooting and move on to bingo or some such. If neither of those things happen, the young will soon enough be "dinosaurs" listening to the smuggness and ignorance of youth, and shaking their head too. what about smug and ignorant old people? Do you ever meet any of those? I sure do, and some of them are really nice folks btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanny10 Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 I like how some individuals imply that the reason they shoot slower and more accurately is due to the fact that they are mature, wiser, and more experienced. And that it's not because they are so slow afoot that taking more time to bear down on the target and get 0s has very little to do with their total time. Is it "wiser" to slow down and shoot clean? Absolutely. IF THE NET GAIN MEANS A BETTER FINISH. Fast is as fast does. When I can no longer win my local match by pushing the speed as much as I dare and not even making the top 10 in accuracy (which will happen soon enough) then I will adjust accordingly. But, I'm not gonna claim it's because I got "wiser". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greyback Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 IDPA rule changes shouldn't bother anybody by now, because historically and obviously there will be another rulebook re-do within a few months, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted December 1, 2015 Share Posted December 1, 2015 In years of shooting IDPA and years of whining about rules I never ever ever heard one person say once before this time/proposal, "Man I wish they'd change the scoring to one point down being one second." Never. Not from DM's, not from someone there for their first match ever. Not from a person refining ccw skills. Not from a gamer. No one. From probably 500 people I've met shooting IDPA all over the US. Never. Infer what you will from it...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Rowdy, good point. Me neither... in person. However during the 2013 and 2015 rulebook comment periods it was a popular rule change request. As for my take on the rule, it won't bother me either way and I haven't campaigned either way. I already shoot as accurately as 65 year old eyes that are being attacked every day by diabetes can shoot. Maybe I am old and ignorant as implied, but I still like the shooting sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Rowdy, good point. Me neither... in person. However during the 2013 and 2015 rulebook comment periods it was a popular rule change request. As for my take on the rule, it won't bother me either way and I haven't campaigned either way. I already shoot as accurately as 65 year old eyes that are being attacked every day by diabetes can shoot. Maybe I am old and ignorant as implied, but I still like the shooting sports. Regarding the bolded, how come no one ever heard of it then? Was it a secret popular rule change request? btw, I certainly never implied you were ignorant. I've shot with you once or twice and found you the opposite; wise and helpful and interesting. I appreciate that. However, I have never really cared for the way that many older people (and I'm pretty old also) so often condescend to younger people. Sometimes it's justified, like when it involves rap music, but not always. Edited December 2, 2015 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeidaho Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 WRT bolded. I'm pretty sure the 2013 comments were public, but I don't know about the 2015 comments. That said, the announcement said this change came directly from the BoD. Of course they have the comments too. Thank you. I too have enjoyed shooting with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Anybody else run the numbers each way for a match or two? It looked to me like it would not change much in match results, and I expect that those who are hurt by the new rule will adjust as needed. Best I can tell is that there is not anything here worth fretting about. Disclaimer, I just looked at a local match or two when I did this, maybe there is something in the bigger picture that would look significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Anybody else run the numbers each way for a match or two? It looked to me like it would not change much in match results, and I expect that those who are hurt by the new rule will adjust as needed. Best I can tell is that there is not anything here worth fretting about. Disclaimer, I just looked at a local match or two when I did this, maybe there is something in the bigger picture that would look significant. running the numbers on previous matches assumes everyone would shoot exactly the same way regardless of the scoring. Anyone with a brain is going to adjust their shooting style, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Anybody else run the numbers each way for a match or two? It looked to me like it would not change much in match results, and I expect that those who are hurt by the new rule will adjust as needed. Best I can tell is that there is not anything here worth fretting about. Disclaimer, I just looked at a local match or two when I did this, maybe there is something in the bigger picture that would look significant. running the numbers on previous matches assumes everyone would shoot exactly the same way regardless of the scoring. Anyone with a brain is going to adjust their shooting style, however. Running the numbers showed that the change would have made very little difference, even with no one making the obvious adjustment, no assumptions. Time will tell if this is just a tempest in a tea pot kind of thing, my guess is that the change will not effect finishing order, it may change the fun factor one way or another depending upon how the individual prefers to run a stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Running the numbers showed that the change would have made very little difference, even with no one making the obvious adjustment, no assumptions. Time will tell if this is just a tempest in a tea pot kind of thing, my guess is that the change will not effect finishing order, it may change the fun factor one way or another depending upon how the individual prefers to run a stage. I'm thinking that as people have said, the finish order won't change that much---but people in the lower third are going to get hammered and look much worse in comparison. Fast folks can slow down to improve accuracy. Fast and accurate folks don't need to slow down. People who are already slow and inaccurate (comparatively speaking) however, are effectively screwed. As such, that lower-third-finish-group (who may already be shooting slowly to be as accurate as they can, which isn't that accurate) are just going to have twice as much penalty time as they did before. Like many, I don't see what problem this was intended to fix, other than potentially getting some middling slow-but-accurate shooters more of a chance to beat a couple of kids who can move faster. Didn't seem to be much call for it---I'm curious what comments were supposedly asking for this. (Outside of one or two people. IDPA claims more shooters than ever! ---so if something has been really asked for, there should be plenty of examples of people asking for it.) Personally, I'm thinking this will make the game less fun, for no positive effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 1 zillion percent agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) I am worried about those shooters at the bottom. I've recently got my wife into shooting USPSA, and we will go shoot a little IDPA when we can. She isn't very fast, and she still has accuracy trouble. The last match we shot I dropped 18 points, and finished with a 20 second lead overall. She dropped 100 points. The 9 more seconds I will gain would of had no effect on my match. She would have gained 50 seconds and still been at the bottom. Will all that extra penalty time cause her to get discouraged? I don't really want to find out. Edited December 2, 2015 by Racinready300ex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas H Posted December 2, 2015 Share Posted December 2, 2015 Will all that extra penalty time cause her to get discouraged? I don't really want to find out. Exactly. Since there seems to be no particular upside or reason for this change (that has been stated---did I miss something substantive?) and I'm not particularly in favor of "change for no reason but change!" the fact that this will seem to effectively punish that lower-third-group seems counterproductive for a sport that is supposedly for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robport Posted December 5, 2015 Share Posted December 5, 2015 Will all that extra penalty time cause her to get discouraged? I don't really want to find out. Exactly. Since there seems to be no particular upside or reason for this change (that has been stated---did I miss something substantive?) and I'm not particularly in favor of "change for no reason but change!" the fact that this will seem to effectively punish that lower-third-group seems counterproductive for a sport that is supposedly for everyone. While I'll still support IDPA, if I can (besides, there are no alternatives around here anyway...lol), I agree wholeheartedly that the risk of losing members/clubs is too great to be making such a move without marketing the need for the change a little better than simply using some esoteric "founders intent" argument. I keep reading the argument that "it won't change things", to sell it. That's more of a reason not to do it than to do it. Change costs money and requires training. There is a large and now substantiated risk of playing with the rules for the sake of playing. I just heard yesterday that another range for another major IDPA match is disassociating itself with IDPA, I just hope the trend doesn't continue. I'm pretty sure though, that it is going to be lot harder to get people from our training matches to start going to our regular ones, once they see the scores spread out even more. The current scoring system and where they fit in it, is discouraging the new shooters now. They feel they just aren't ready for the regular matches. I just wish I could give them a good valid reason why it is happening...one that makes at least some sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanny10 Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Does anyone have any solid data on the number of clubs that have dropped their association with IDPA? In say the last 12 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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