RO Suspected of Cheating in USPSA Matches

[XD Niner]

Amen! Great to see that these incidents were the acts of a single individual and that the punishment befits the crime. Now hopefully we resume our regular programming.

Edited June 27, 2014 by XD Niner

[Vanniek71]

I agree it's good the decision was swift, but like Sarge said - why was it posted on facebook and only sent to a select few?

There is the USPSA Newsletter (Maybe it will be posted next Thurs?) Front Sight magazine, and the USPSA website which has "Current events" posted on it. 2 of those 3 choices take about 10 minutes to reach almost everyone and are almost free....

I will say this, they need to make it visible for everyone, AND update the website in general - we would have a better USPSA following with a better website that showed new information etc. (I know a whole other issue)

[PKT1106]

So, seeing Chuck's response from a FB capture on Doodie, did Phil instruct Chuck to do the investigation or did Chuck want to do the investigation? This is important in seeing where the HQ and Phil was on this issue.

Edited June 27, 2014 by PKT1106

[pkm]

I agree it's good the decision was swift, but like Sarge said - why was it posted on facebook and only sent to a select few?

There is the USPSA Newsletter (Maybe it will be posted next Thurs?) Front Sight magazine, and the USPSA website which has "Current events" posted on it. 2 of those 3 choices take about 10 minutes to reach almost everyone and are almost free....

I will say this, they need to make it visible for everyone, AND update the website in general - we would have a better USPSA following with a better website that showed new information etc. (I know a whole other issue)

I don't know, I guess I don't really feel the need to have a public execution. He did wrong and then was banned. Seems like the area that was involved was notified. Don't give the guy more time, maybe discuss how this can be prevented in the future. But he has been banned for life, just let it be or focus on what can prevent it in the future.

[Vanniek71]

I agree it's good the decision was swift, but like Sarge said - why was it posted on facebook and only sent to a select few?

There is the USPSA Newsletter (Maybe it will be posted next Thurs?) Front Sight magazine, and the USPSA website which has "Current events" posted on it. 2 of those 3 choices take about 10 minutes to reach almost everyone and are almost free....

I will say this, they need to make it visible for everyone, AND update the website in general - we would have a better USPSA following with a better website that showed new information etc. (I know a whole other issue)

I don't know, I guess I don't really feel the need to have a public execution. He did wrong and then was banned. Seems like the area that was involved was notified. Don't give the guy more time, maybe discuss how this can be prevented in the future. But he has been banned for life, just let it be or focus on what can prevent it in the future.

it's not a public execution the guys name isn't mentioned, what it is is a public announcement along the lines of " We will find out if you cheat, you will be dealt with accordingly" keeps the honest honest and possibly stops would be cheaters before it gets that far down the road.

[Stlhead]

Cheaters are going to cheat. The organization needs to deal with them in the most open and quick way possible. There problem with this "scandal" is that most people are far more worked up about the lack of effective and timely communication than they are the actual cheating. The guy has ben banned for life already, the sooner this whole thing is laid out for everyone to see the sooner it gets put to rest. Facebook posts don't cut it. An email needs to go out to all members, the home page should carry it for a week and it should be prominent in the next issue of front sight. Then it goes away as far as USPSA is concerned. The Hendrix jokes will go on for years. His name will from now on be associated with asshaterey for ever, that is his true punishment.

[Vanniek71]

^^^^ this

[vluc]

Cheaters are going to cheat. The organization needs to deal with them in the most open and quick way possible. There problem with this "scandal" is that most people are far more worked up about the lack of effective and timely communication than they are the actual cheating. The guy has ben banned for life already, the sooner this whole thing is laid out for everyone to see the sooner it gets put to rest. Facebook posts don't cut it. An email needs to go out to all members, the home page should carry it for a week and it should be prominent in the next issue of front sight. Then it goes away as far as USPSA is concerned. The Hendrix jokes will go on for years. His name will from now on be associated with asshaterey for ever, that is his true punishment.

He was placed on the "disavowed list" I figure that means banned (words have meaning), but requests for the list - to see who else is on there so effective match management at a local level can be done - have not been answered. My AD says he is working to get it distributed, we'll see.

Might be in the lost sock zone or someplace like that. Allegedly exists, never seen.

Cheating also occurred in A8, AD posted the letter on the A8 FB page, but like others, why not the main USPSA page. Heck, the letter is being referenced on a number of other gun sites, yet not on our home page.

And a side not, PVH is not a CRO as stated in the letter, at least not according to the USPSA web page list of RO's/CRO's. He is an RO only.

Edited June 28, 2014 by vluc

[vluc]

oops

Guess I get +2 for the double post...

Edited June 28, 2014 by vluc

[RammerJammer]

So, seeing Chuck's response from a FB capture on Doodie, did Phil instruct Chuck to do the investigation or did Chuck want to do the investigation? This is important in seeing where the HQ and Phil was on this issue.

Chuck volunteered because he had experience and knew that who ever conducted the investigation would catching it for a long time from those who wanted it swept under a rug and quiet and those that wanted a mass grave. That's leadership.

[PKT1106]

So, seeing Chuck's response from a FB capture on Doodie, did Phil instruct Chuck to do the investigation or did Chuck want to do the investigation? This is important in seeing where the HQ and Phil was on this issue.

Chuck volunteered because he had experience and knew that who ever conducted the investigation would catching it for a long time from those who wanted it swept under a rug and quiet and those that wanted a mass grave. That's leadership.

So, Phil wanted it to go away, but Chuck stepped up and did something?

[justaute]

Watching a few kids from my alma mater competing at the US Track & Field Championship on TV...I threw javelin in college and played/coached volleyball.

The more I think about and play my other sports, the more disappointed I am about the game of USPSA. To be fair, in the 3 years since I shot my first USPSA match, I have met some great people. However, watching from the sidelines of how USPSA manages this organization has really changed the way I view USPSA. Having advised, invested, and operated large companies, I do see the potential of this organization. Alas, the combination of this cheating scandal, underwhelming experience at 2013 Production Nations, and deficient USPSA administration, leaves me aghast.

USPSA really is a fun, addicting game. It's a volunteer-sport, but it doesn't mean it can't be professionally operated. At our local matches, I try to help as much as possible, from helping set-up/-down to designing stages. If USPSA turns-out to be basically just a collection of local shooting evens to satisfy people who own firearms, then that's ok. If we want USPSA to be more expansive than that, well, I truly believe meaningful changes need to be made.

Having read many of the postings on A6's FB page, and a few others, makes me wonder whether there are capable professionals within our community who'd be willing to help. There were certainly a lot of unprofessional, un-civil postings in connection with the cheating scandal.

"Sometimes, incompetence is useful. It helps you keep an open mind."

Edited June 28, 2014 by justaute

[L3324temp]

Good to see this was handled properly. It does need to make the USPSA website website as well as be published in Front Sight.

[RammerJammer]

So, seeing Chuck's response from a FB capture on Doodie, did Phil instruct Chuck to do the investigation or did Chuck want to do the investigation? This is important in seeing where the HQ and Phil was on this issue.

Chuck volunteered because he had experience and knew that who ever conducted the investigation would catching it for a long time from those who wanted it swept under a rug and quiet and those that wanted a mass grave. That's leadership.

So, Phil wanted it to go away, but Chuck stepped up and did something?

No clue what Phil wanted but several posting on the A6 spacebook page did and I'm sure a lot of non vocal members did too. Its obvious that there were several extremes on this and Chuck knew that.

[Nimitz]

So at least at the local level, was it determined that he was cheating in favor of the same set of shooters and punishing the same group on a regular basis? I know Chuck's report concluded he acted alone but I'm curious if any of those who had been "helped" have come out and said anything?

From a human behavior stand point it would be very odd that someone would engage in this type of risky behavior repeatedly, over perhaps years, and do it for personal satisfaction alone, and not convey his actions to those he his helping in some manner at some point in time. After all, it was friends of his that he was subtracting time off of right?

I know the investigation is over but it does seem a little odd ....

Edited June 29, 2014 by Nimitz

[alma]

A few specific names were mentioned as being observed as benefiting the most from the cheating. I have seen statements on another website from all except the one shooter who by far benefited the most. He has been silent throughout the ordeal except for a time he took down his match videos from YouTube but has since restored them. The others generally expressed surprise and shock at the activity and in no way tired to support the cheater.

[Nimitz]

Thx, some interesting behavior there from one of the shooters ....

[a matt]

Watching a few kids from my alma mater competing at the US Track & Field Championship on TV...I threw javelin in college and played/coached volleyball.

The more I think about and play my other sports, the more disappointed I am about the game of USPSA. To be fair, in the 3 years since I shot my first USPSA match, I have met some great people. However, watching from the sidelines of how USPSA manages this organization has really changed the way I view USPSA. Having advised, invested, and operated large companies, I do see the potential of this organization. Alas, the combination of this cheating scandal, underwhelming experience at 2013 Production Nations, and deficient USPSA administration, leaves me aghast.

USPSA really is a fun, addicting game. It's a volunteer-sport, but it doesn't mean it can't be professionally operated. At our local matches, I try to help as much as possible, from helping set-up/-down to designing stages. If USPSA turns-out to be basically just a collection of local shooting evens to satisfy people who own firearms, then that's ok. If we want USPSA to be more expansive than that, well, I truly believe meaningful changes need to be made.

Having read many of the postings on A6's FB page, and a few others, makes me wonder whether there are capable professionals within our community who'd be willing to help. There were certainly a lot of unprofessional, un-civil postings in connection with the cheating scandal.

"Sometimes, incompetence is useful. It helps you keep an open mind."

Now I don't know if all that we have read is from A6 members. Some folks like to invoke a riot here and there. But I can assure you most like 97% of A6 are really some of the best people you will ever meet. Just thinking sounds like you may be a strong canadate. Hint, hint. Lol Edited June 29, 2014 by a matt

[konkapot]

I've been shooting fairly seriously since 2000; I've read time and time again about "honor" and "integrity" and other words that most people learned from watching Gladiator and/or 300.

I've also read what "great folks" USPSA shooters are.

This incident should have opened people's eyes that USPSA shooters are just like any other group of people. Some cool....some fool.

We've also learned about how quickly some of our "great folks" are to try to cover things up and rationalize reprehensible behavior.

Cheating by an official is a bad thing. Period.

[a matt]

Oh yea, this whole thing from Troll # 6 to us talking about this mess is bad. We should be saying its a sad day when people cheat in our sport at least he is gone. The end. But things didn't quite go that way.

[BeerBaron]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but ok, the investigation is done and they are satisfied that there is sufficient proof this man is guilty. the punishment is lifetime ban from USPSA matches.

WHY is he not named in the letter? what good is a lifetime ban if no one knows who it applies to?

I honestly cannot understand how this can be considered done if he is not named by the organisation. Sure some may know who it is through FB or whatever, but that's not good enough.

The official announcement of his lifetime sanction should include his name so that people know from an official source that is is prohibited from USPSA competition. No name seems like a soft option to me.

[IHMSA15151]

Why are so many members looking to USPSA to dish out vengeance? This doesn't really effect any of us who live in other parts of the country and will likely never cross paths with this RO, and I feel confident those who do know him have made their judgement already, so it's up to them to exclude him if they wish. I know I wouldn't sign up under his name on the squad sheet...

Well put. I agree 100%

[Vlad]

I think people were looking for a harsh treatment and statement becuase it is so damn easy to cheat in this game, by shooters or officials. We function entirely on the honor system, because after all we have lots of armed people in close proximity so this sorta needs to be a gentleman's game. When that contract breaks down the only way to make it right again is for the reaction to rapid, forceful, and definitive as to reduce the chance of anyone else doing it in the future.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Vlad

[ZackJones]

So at least at the local level, was it determined that he was cheating in favor of the same set of shooters and punishing the same group on a regular basis? I know Chuck's report concluded he acted alone but I'm curious if any of those who had been "helped" have come out and said anything?

Actually Paul's -2/+2 activities took place at higher (sectional and area level matches) - he may have done some at locals but no one seems to care too much about that. Given that the investigation is been concluded it doesn't matter if any of the other shooters knew or not. What's done is done and it can't be reversed. Even though steel challenge is a tiny subset of USPSA I did hear "Don't +2 me, bro" on more than one occasion this past weekend.

[dcloudy777]

Anyone getting wing of how the "regular" sponsors (especially the big ones) feel about this? I know if I donated a few thousand dollars' worth of guns or some such to a big match and it went to someone that won by cheating, I'd be plenty pissed.