Cd662

Hey folks, I've been running club matches at the newest and only Virginia ICORE club. We are hosting our first annual championship match. We're stuck shooting indoors so don't expect the IRC, but entry is cheap (35 bucks). Additionally, ICORE has offered to give 1 dollar memberships for all new ICORE members for the first year of their active membership if they sign up during or after this match. See below for our match bulletin. ---- Dust off your wheelguns and join us on Sunday, November 21 for the 2021 Hampton Roads Revolver Championship. This is a sanctioned, revolver action shooting match for the International Confederation of Revolver Enthusiasts. Membership in ICORE is NOT required, and all interested competitors will receive their annual membership to ICORE for only $1.00 (normally $30 for the first year). Competitors will shoot roughly 180 rounds over the course of 6 stages. First time competitor? Need equipment? No problem! Fellow LGC members will have equipment for you to borrow. Almost any revolver can be used in this format! To register, sign up on Practiscore. REGISTER HERE: https://practiscore.com/lgc-icore-10-31-2021/register Date: Sunday, November 21 Check in begins 0700, firing begins 0800. Round count: 180, bring at least 200. Divisions: All ICORE divisions and special recognition categories acknowledged. Awards: Awards to be ordered after the match. 1st place in the Open, Limited, Classic, and Limited 6 divisions will be awarded trophies or medals. Additional awards will be given to class leaders and special recognition categories if there are 3 competitors or more in that group. For example, if there are 8 competitors in the Limited division ranked as C class, awards for 1st C Class and 2nd C class will be given. If there are four competitors shooting rimfire revolvers, an award for 1st place rimfire revolver will be given. Prizes: Random draw prizes will be distributed. Classification: A current ICORE classification is NOT required. One classifier will be ran during the match.

Edited for clarity. Referring to the 2021 IRC.

I don't have Facebook so sorry if this is on there. I could have sworn I saw something about being able to sign up for different time slots for the classifier match on Thursday. None of this information is on Practiscore or the ICORE homepage. Does anyone have any info on the classifier match for the IRC?

Jrs - C2 is where I had in mind. They are open to match ideas. RevoWood123 - I have no idea. There is no USPSA in my area and competing is on the back burner for me since I have extremely limited opportunity to practice at the moment.

It would probably be around Virginia Beach. Jrswanson, it is pretty crazy. I moved here recently.

Are there any wheelguns guys in Virginia or who would be willing to travel from a nearby state to VA if I could get an ICORE match going, some equivalent to a state championship?

In the past, there was an Open 6 sub category. Sounds right up your alley.

The IRC is still going to be about accuracy. It's unreasonable to have a national championship where pretty much the entire fate of the match lies on the shoulders of a stage that 90% of people can't practice.The best shooters are still the best shooters, regardless of Far and Near being there. Don't imply the game is watered down by removing it without having any idea of what stages will be presented in lieu of that. In fact, the recently concluded USPSA Revolver Nationals should show you how much challenge you can have in a match without requiring Bianchi Cup style shooting at 50 yards.

Hey Enosverse - I haven't had the opportunity to post online too much since I don't have a computer right now. I have a background in action shooting sports (IDPA, USPSA, and ICORE) but I've been on a hiatus due to my enlistment in the Air Force. I've been investigated the Excellence in Competition format. I'm primarily hoping to get involved in a match and I'm also strongly interested in organizing a match at the base. I am not familiar with CMP, NRA, or the military specific rules so I've been gradually acquainting myself with them as time permits. The big challenge I see to CMP participation are some of the requirements, and the subsequent number of matches (or lack thereof). If every civilian competitor requires a notarized document to compete, I could see why its hard to get walk ins. I'm currently at Goodfellow AFB. Are there any matches I could shoot in the area that would qualify for Air Force recognition? I realize the Air Force qualifying events are not the same as all of the CMP ones. Secondly, has anyone on here organized matches at their bases, or is anyone involved in this format of competition (civilian or military) that would be willing to give me some information? Thanks in advance!

"If we have an honest look at our divisions they are either a stagnant formula (Open, Limited) , a rules stagnant formula ( SS, Production) or a place to hide( L10, revolver)." Soo...you don't like USPSA at all?

6 round neutral is not why these stages are they way they are. The postal match was designed to be easy to set up and shoot, including at indoor ranges. I think they could have been more creative in designing the stages. That having been said, I guarantee the people who are the best at running around and shooting things, or shooting classifiers, or shooting strong and weak hand only at matches are also going to be the best at the postal match. It can take a surprising amount of effort to set up the exact same stage, nevermind trying to get multiple people to do it correctly at different clubs.

I don't think 99.9999% of people are ever going to game something like this. Could someone do it? Yeah, sure, they'd probably do it once or twice and call it a day. No one is going to plan offing their muffs constantly and intentionally. Personally, I double plug. I am hearing sensitive and want to preserve as much as I can for as long as I can. The people putting in one pair of ear plugs from the dollar store and having them not even be all the way in and then shooting Open guns, that's their choice to make.

Chris Comer made the definition so we can end the thread, but I have to end with a response. "Basically, you could have saved us both time by stating that you had no ideas about preserving six shot neutrality, you preferred eight shot revolvers, and you didn't want to discuss clever stage design. My ideas may not be the answer, but what if they evoke a thought from someone else that is? USPSA had their rule change drastically alter the game in that division with the acceptance of eight shot revolvers. All thanks to folks that didn't pay attention to anything but what they wanted and stated great things about improved participation. It didn't hold water and drove all the six shot minor guns back into the safe. " Why do people take everything in life so personally? It's cause for high blood pressure. I'm glad you made a bunch of erroneous assumptions. Every single major ICORE match I have shot since I started my participation in ICORE has been with a 6 shot classic gun, with the exception of last year's IRC where I put in a Limited entry with a 6 shot Model 625 competing in the Limited 6 sub category. I have also been overtly critical of stages that carry a high "train wreck" risk for 6 shot guns because I don't think it's fair for them. I posted an example of a good stage in my other post and you clearly didn't take the time to read it. This is the problem with America right now. Everyone thinks that if someone has a different opinion than them, it's a personal attack and that other person deserve a retaliatory insult. It's amazing. You have no idea about my ICORE track record, my push for fair and equitable competition in stages, or how much I have supported 6 shot guns. I competed in two USPSA Area championships with a 6 shot gun USING SPEEDLOADERS and MINOR SCORING. But yeah, I'm just one of those big 8 shot jerks that's trying to kill ICORE and make people's guns obsolete. It's definitely not like I'm hosting a sanctioned match and giving out an award for Limited 6. Nope. Good job man, you win the internet prize.

Forrest - There are realities that have to be faced in action shooting. Not every gun is going to be optimal for every division. ICORE examined the prospects of creating a Limited 6 division and they didn't go for it. The people that want to shoot ICORE in Limited and who want to be competitive are going to buy an 8 shot gun. The only people that have 6 shot moonclip guns for the most part are people who shot IDPA Enhanced Service Revolver or shot USPSA where the 625 was the only game in town. The 625 and the 610 pretty much are useless guns aside from those gaming purposes. No one wants to buy a 625 to shoot at the range for fun. It's expensive, it requires moonclips, and the ammo is more expensive. The vast majority of casual, entry level shooters are going to be running 6 shot guns chambered in 38 Special or 357 magnum. If you really want to be competitive in Limited or Open, you have to buy an 8 shot gun. That's just what it is. The game has been like that ever since the 8 shot guns came out. There is nothing that says that a 6 shot gun has to be able to be as good as an 8 shot gun in the overall standings. Someone brought up that Josh Lentz places very well in the overall - no kidding, the man is a beast with a revolver. That's not the case for most individuals. The IRC had some stages that were 35 or even over 40 rounds if I recall over the past few years. People dropped loading devices and didn't have enough ammunition to finish the stage. That's some pretty high round count stuff, but the majority of these discussions are based on course design for the local match. If you have a field course like Bosshoss mentioned, you could develop a stage where makeup shots could be made at a shooting position. That would be a good stage. A lot of ICORE stages are also stand and shoot affairs, and many frequently utilize shooting boxes. There's really not a TON of creativity you can have. 6 shot guns are still going to try to group their plan into groups of 5 or 6 shots, and if that isn't available, they will reload early to return to that. The plan could be 5 shots, 4 shots, 6 shots, 4 shots, and 6 shots. You're still looking at the same number of reloads either way, unless you want to carry one round in the cylinder, shoot once, and do a standing reload. This is a terrible idea from a competitive standpoint. So no, I do not think there should be a same number of reloads between 6 and 8 shot guns, there was no typo made. If you have an 16 round stage, an 8 shot can do it with one reload, a 6 shot can do it with 2. If you're a clever stage designer, you can make it so the 8 shot gun SHOULD reload for the sake of being more efficient (moving while reloading). We don't have to offset anything. These topics keep coming up over and over, regardless of discipline. Everyone wants to make everything equal and it's kind of ridiculous. Shooting games have an inherent cost to them. Should it be a race to the best gear? No. When it comes to revolver though, if you want to be competitive, it's going to cost a few hundred dollars no matter how you slice it. There aren't a lot of good gun smiths, the gear isn't commonly available, etc etc etc. If someone enjoys shooting Limited and really wants to be competitive, they need an 8 shot gun. If anything, ICORE has traditionally been an 8 shot game, not a 6 shot. That was a big reason why Craig pushed for the formation of the Retro (eventually, Classic) division. You would have to start coming up with arbitrary score changes for every gun. "If this gun isn't chamfered, it has a big disadvantage from a chamfered gun, so subtract X time per shot. But this other gun is chambered in 40, so the bullet is only slightly bigger than a 358 caliber bullet but it has moonclips so it has a faster reload than a 6 shot speedloader gun but a capacity disadvantage, so it should have this other time modifier. And let's not leave out the Webley 455 shooters, it takes longer for them to break the guns in half and shove them back together, that necessitates an offset." This isn't supposition. Someone always has these ideas for USPSA and IDPA on how to take some gun type that not a lot of people shoot and make it "even". Other sports don't do this. Things are classed with similar things. That keeps it fair. If there was a 50/50 split of 6 to 8 shot Limited shooters, maybe I could see it as a more pressing issue. The IRC last year barely had any Classic OR Limited 6 shooters. I think there were only 3 Open 6 shooters. ICORE has offered a work around. If there are that many people shooting 625s or 610s (and 610s are pretty rare guns), the match director can recognize the Limited 6 shot sub category. If you have a sanctioned match, you can offer an award for it. I don't understand why this is so complicated and why it comes up constantly. ICORE desperately needs new shooters and new blood and we're still spinning the wheels on a discussion that's been had about 4 times on here over the past 6 months in various threads.

I always thought the push for 6 round neutral was for the sake of 6 shooters not getting frustrated with shooting rather than competitive equity. Classic shooters and people shooting Open 6 or Limited 6 at the IRC are competing against similar equipment, so the challenge is equitable amongst all of them. For me, a 6 shot neutral stage is one where you can complete the stage with an even number of speedloaders or moonclips, but this doesn't mean the round count has to be divisible by 2. If anything, a great example of a frustrating stage would be one where every array was 6 pieces of steel. There's a regional match around here that has done that twice. It's still fair to shoot because all 6 shooters are shooting it, but it's frustrating. Let's say there are 4 arrays of 6 targets. If you miss one shot you are eating a standing reload to make it up, and another reload to get back on track with your shooting. The average ability shooter is going to miss more than one shot. There is a potential to be adding a lot of extra shooting and reloading time, whereas the 8 shot gun just has to pull the trigger a few more times, and an extra reload STILL isn't the end of the world because it doesn't force a second one on top of it. Most of the 6 shot guns competing in ICORE are probably Classic guns, not 625s. The scoring system is working fine and trying to change it based off bullet size is really not a good idea. The scoring system is already extremely unforgiving. New shooters get absolutely destroyed. If this thread is about drawing new people in, making the scoring system MORE brutal definitely isn't going to help.

crotchthrower - I'm kind of dissapointed with how that went with your range, it wasn't your fault. If the range had accommodated a sanctioned match, the turnout could have been pretty good and they would have made money. I tried my best to help support that and spent some of my own dough on the awards. Maybe the idea can be revisited in the future, I see plenty of wheelgunners on my travels through your area.

I've posted this before but I think everyone has the wrong perspective here. Cost of equipment is a valid part of the argument but I don't think its the primary reason. Let's be brutally honest here for a moment. People like IDPA because there is entertainment value. People love being able to talk about the real or imagined value of "self defense oriented" shooting. On the club level where the majority of participants shoot, stages are generally very easy. Targets are at 5 - 10 yards and a mediocre shooter can take his time and have "down zero" on most of the targets. It's enough to make people feel good and keep them coming back. The average skill level is prety low. People like USPSA because they get to do exciting, unconventional things based on speed. They get to run with a gun and shoot very quickly at targets. Revolver shooting has historically been an accuracy dependent format and ICORE is no exception. If we look at the traditional NRA sports where revolvers were king, they are all dying out. NRA Bullseye, Action Pistol (including the Bianchi Cup), and PPC (Someone just posted on Revo nation about PPC possibly phasing out revolver divisions and sub-matches) have all been suffering significantly. People don't really want to shoot revolvers, in general. People also don't want to shoot games that at heavily dependent on accuracy because there is no amount of extra shots, running around like a maniac, or other novelty that can improve prove shooting. You have old gear and formats that are perceived to be old. Cost is a factor, but anyone getting into shooting sports seriously is going to spend money, there's no way around it. Regarding ICORE in particular, I have been trying to increase attendance in the area and ICORE has not really done any significant advertisement in recent history. I spoke to a member of the board of directors and they have some new staff this year. They are aware of the need to market to a new crowd. It's not going to happen overnight. IDPA has a whole giant marketing team, heavily sponsored by Smith and Wesson. USPSA has a wide presence and is represented on TV through Hot Shots and IPSC (related enough to USPSA) has a national presence. The big thing is consciously marketing to non-ICORE shooters. I've been hosting a local match series and there are people coming out with 4 inch guns, HKS speedloaders, and leather holsters. These are precisely the people we need. I tell them to bring two speedloaders and they load the first 6 by hand, so they have 18 rounds available. There's tons of classifiers that only require 12 rounds. Talk to people. Invite guests to a match. Talk to the guy shooting his Model 10 at the range and tell him he could be shooting on the move or shooting at moving targets. I think it's going to be a struggle for awhile, but eventually we can get more people involved on a significant scale.

I've got a lot of local interest in this and some people have told me they are coming. Please remember to register and pre-pay so I can hold a spot for you!

ICORE returns to the Nutmeg State after a three year hiatus! I am proud to announce the return of the Connecticut State Revolver Championship, an official, ICORE sanctioned match. I am excited to have this shooting opportunity, thanks to the support of local revolver enthusiasts and shooting businesses. The match will be held at the King 33 Indoor Training Facility in Southington, CT (www.king33training.com) on Friday, July 24th and Saturday, July 25th from roughly 6 – 9 PM. This evening format is a great opportunity to sneak in a championship match in a local match time frame and leaves the schedule open to shoot other weekend matches – I know how packed the summer shooting schedule can be an no one wants to miss out on an event. Now you don't have to. Location: King33 Training Facility 75 Aircraft Road Southington, CT 06489 Awards and Prizes: Small prizes will be given through random draw lottery. Competitors will receive a bag number at the door and will receive a corresponding prize. Match awards will be presented to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place for the Open, Limited, and Classic division. Class awards will be given if there are 5 or more competitors in that group. In addition, this match recognizes various sub categories and there will be an award if there are at least 3 competitors in these groups. Competitors may post two entries to the match, and second gun entries WILL be eligible for overall placement awards. Finally, there will be a special award, the “Time Traveler” given to the competitor who shoots the best X Ring score. No further sub categories will be awarded for the match. Example: The Limited Division has 15 competitors and 6 of them are in C class. An award would be presented for 1st and 2nd place Limited C Class. Example: A competitor signs up for Open and Classic division and places 2nd and 3rd overall respectively. That individual will receive an award for both placements. Stages/Round Count: Stages are still being finalized for the match. There will be a standards stage as well as several speed shoots, along with at least one official ICORE classifier stage, and at least one field course. Expect a final round count of 130 – 160 rounds (bring 200 to be safe!) Entry Fee and Match Application: $40.00 entry fee, $15 for an extra gun. The second entry may be shot on the same evening or on the subsequent evening. Second entries are subject to cancellation if the match reaches capacity. Second entries will be removed from the most recently received to the earliest received. Register for the match online at http://shootnscoreit.com/icore/match/745/ Prepayment is required. Contact me for my address to send a check or for my E-Mail address for PayPal. Last day to withdraw with a refund is on July 15. In the unlikely event of an event cancellation, all funds will be completely refunded to all competitors.

You want to mount speedloaders on a belt that you want to wrap around your chest so you can reload faster? That's fascinating. I don't think it's legal. 5.2.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and allied equipment must be worn during the course of fire; the belt must be worn at the waist level, which is deemed to be at the same level as the original belt loops on the lower garment. (See 5.2.3.1 for exceptions.) The belt or the inner belt or both must be either securely fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. The belt may be removed between courses of fire. 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1).

"Try this on for size if it is too much to let go: "I am sorry to inform you that you have been disqualified for violation of the shooter's code of conduct, rule 3.19.7. Please refer any questions to the CSO and MD and have a safe day." I have the authority to do that on the spot and it doesn't take me away from the stage. He willfully broke the rule so I have grounds to DQ. It shifts the burden of time and legwork to the shooter completely as he is now trying to get back into the match and I am free to run my stage. If it bounces back from them, it will likely end up a FTDR, but you have made the offending shooter do the legwork and thoroughly offset any competitive advantage gained. " If you DQ a shooter that you suspect has "gamed" a stage, you are a terrible safety officer and you are the problem behind IDPA's generally terrible and inconsistent levels of "officiating".

I still don't see it. They took two legal divisions and made one still-legal division and retained all of the rules from the two divisions and lumped it into one. There is no equipment that was not allowed before that is now permissible. Similarly, 625s are perfectly legal in ICORE Limited. So if you had the time/money/whatever to go to a big ICORE match like the IRC and you knew there were going to be 10 LImited shooters competing for the Limited 6 Shot award, that wouldn't interest you, but if they called it the Limited 6 Division instead of the Limited 6 Category, that would be worth it? I would love to see more 6 shot revolver presence, but there needs to be demand for it to begin with. Either way, if it's going to happen, they should let ICORE shooters know. There will need to be time for people to classify in the new division in time for the IRC.

jhg, I don't understand your perspective. IDPA consolidated the two existing revolver divisions into one. The same stuff that was legal before is still legal. There are literally no new options. The BUG stuff in the rule book simply solidifies guidelines for equipment for use at Back Up Gun Only matches, which is simply a rule book formality. IDPA realistically has "two" divisions. Both are very restrictive on what kind of revolver you can shoot and one is only available to use at a very limited amount of novelty matches. In ICORE, you can shoot pretty much anything, and the rulebook allows for match directors to create their own subcategories. It hasn't really been happening. I just don't see a lot of people coming out to shoot Limited 6. Most of the people that had those guns were USPSA shooters, or IDPA shooters for ESR. I guess it doesn't technically "hurt" anything, it'll just further dilute the pool of people already attending matches.

There are scores of fixed sight Smith and Wesson Model 10s sitting in used gun counters across the country. You can probably score one for 200 - 300 bucks. Used Rugers are probably also cheap.

Agree with Carmoney.