Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[dwarren9]

I like that ideal . Rev is pretty much all i shoot anymore .it would give me a chance to shoot in other divisions

[B_Seehawer]

Why would someone want to shoot in another division with the same gun they shoot all the time?

[bdpaz]

I think the point is they don't wanna shoot them in another division they are not competitive in. They wanna shoot it in revolver. I agree we should try it as a provisional, but it should be in revolver division.

We are working on a match to do just this in a couple weeks. Be interesting how many show up to shoot the 6 major compared to those that show up to shoot 8 minor. There will be more in minor for sure as most shooting major will shoot both, but many have already stated they are only gonna show up and shoot the minor portion.

This was originally devised just to test out the Major6 v minor 8 thing. Will let all know the results.

Just highlighting this for those who keep mentioning that we need to try out the proposed changes. Why no "Good idea Rob, great first step" type responses?

[hopalong]

Good Idea Rob !!!!!!

Great First step into the testing of the 6 major vs. the 8 Minor !!!!!

IF I was closer to you, I'd come help with your test. Plus get my butt handed back to me by a closet Revolver shooter ;-)

Hopalong

L3263 (for those interested in what Division(S) I shoot

[lora]

Right. Give them a chance in a provisional category in L-10 or production. They will be recognized as high revo in the division and be counted. If there are enough, there will be a production or L-10 revo national champion.

We are now able to count participation, we haven't completely killed a division as we know it , and if the number warrant it, we can make changes. We will have actual data; not just talk.

This seems like the obvious choice to me.

I think the point is they don't wanna shoot them in another division they are not competitive in. They wanna shoot it in revolver. I agree we should try it as a provisional, but it should be in revolver division.

The would be competitive amongst themselves. If there are enough to warrant changing Revolver division into something new, there should be enough competition in the category. They would be shooting to be Production or L-10 revolver champion. If there is not enough competition, shouldn't that tell us something.,

Why in the world should I be in a provisional category with autoloaders as opposed to a provisional category in revolver. If your going to segregate the test of 8 minor, do it in the revolver division. If there are enough, then maybe there will be a revolver minor or 8 shot revo champion, to use your words. Since I'm often the only revolver shooter at local matches, i might still be the only revolver, but it would be revolver class. There's not going to be a production or L10 revolver division. TGO is spot on.

[cliffwalsh]

I would like a demonstration that there is a group who want to shoot their 8 shooters other than sitting at a keyboard and typing. I go to a lot of matches and I don't see anyone doing it.

Show me some actual evidence that there is a need for a place to shoot 8 shot revo's in USPSA.

You want to make a major change in the rules of USPSA but you don't want to have to demonstrate a need. Do you really think that's how it should work??

One other thing, you are the only revo shooter at the match and you would rather be the winner with no competition than shoot in L-10 or production and compete with someone???

Edited February 7, 2013 by cliffwalsh

[PatJones]

If there were a bunch of 8-shot revo owners out there just dying to shoot USPSA, they'd be shooting them in Production already.

That has been my point for the last 5 years this conversation has been going on. If you want to make a change, show up and shoot and if there are numbers the powers that be will address it. The only effort I have seen so far is guys posting from behind their computers. If you want a change, show up and be counted.. "Talk is cheap and it takes money to buy whiskey," to quote Dave Moss.

I would like a demonstration that there is a group who want to shoot their 8 shooters other than sitting at a keyboard and typing. I go to a lot of matches and I don't see anyone doing it.

Show me some actual evidence that there is a need for a place to shoot 8 shot revo's in USPSA.

WELD COUNTY PRACTICAL SHOOTERS December 2012

Production 5 Patrick J 15 Minor 353.9294 67.723

AGC 12/02/12

Production 11 Patrick J 42 Minor 291.0114 62.999%

Weld County Practical Shooters November 2012

Production 5 Patrick J 15 Minor 300.0943 68.295%

AGC 11/04/12

Production 7 Patrick J 9 Minor 276.4599

74.853%

I could go on..

I know I'm easy to miss... my scores blend in with all the bottom feeders. If you weren't on my squad you would have missed me completely.

-Pat Jones

[PatJones]

Look. The I don't really think the number of revolver shooters at the nationals is important. If there are enough people shooting this division at the grassroots level the Nationals will take care of themselves. What changes will increase the number of shooters at the monthly club matches? Personally I feel that allowing 8 shot minor has real potential to grow the division.

-pat

[lora]

Take look at the the number of responses from this post alone, and that's not even counting the several similar threads over the past 5 years. There clearly is a voice asking and trying to increase the number of shooters to the division. I definitely want to use my 627 on the 8 round stages, I hate standing reloads. There is no way to use our high level of intellect to figure out how to game a stage when facing 4 paper only from one box or window. And I don't see how uspsa can provide cof for a match that is fit for all divisions at all levels of matches. Hence, 6 round neutral. So all the 625s make all 627s expensive safe queens or all 627s make 625s expensive safe queens. At least a shooter, new or used, isn't forced to make standing reloads if 627s are allowed.

What part of the suggestion for a provisional revolver 8 shot minor is different than a provisional revo production/L10.

[lora]

I would like a demonstration that there is a group who want to shoot their 8 shooters other than sitting at a keyboard and typing. I go to a lot of matches and I don't see anyone doing it.

Show me some actual evidence that there is a need for a place to shoot 8 shot revo's in USPSA.

You want to make a major change in the rules of USPSA but you don't want to have to demonstrate a need. Do you really think that's how it should work??

One other thing, you are the only revo shooter at the match and you would rather be the winner with no competition than shoot in L-10 or production and compete with someone???

I have been the only shooter, to try to get more shooters to compete against, and support for the division, even one shooter is valuable when the overall number is small. I see the value in a single vote on the big picture. I don't care about the score sheet against production or L10 when using a revo, I will never be competing against them at higher level matches. I use the local match as a platform for practice for bigger matches and as opportunity to show those on the squad what shooting a revolver is actually as much fun as their production or SS.

Edited February 7, 2013 by lora

[Carmoney]

Look. The I don't really think the number of revolver shooters at the nationals is important. If there are enough people shooting this division at the grassroots level the Nationals will take care of themselves. What changes will increase the number of shooters at the monthly club matches? Personally I feel that allowing 8 shot minor has real potential to grow the division.

Exactly right. Especially if it turns out that 6-major isn't necessarily the handicap that people perceive it to be at first blush.

As of right now, 71 people have answered the poll indicating that they would shoot USPSA more if they could run 8-minor. Even just those 71 people would make a noticeable increase in revolver participation in USPSA nationwide. Sad but true.

I don't have any misconception that we're suddenly going to see a gigantic influx of new participants by allowing 8-minor. But even a modest increase in our numbers would be meaningful, at this point.

Would we really lose anybody? I don't know, but I would not want that to happen.

[Norther]

What a topic! This thing is huge.

I voted no difference, but I am in favor. Many of my reasons have already been discussed.

I probably have lots of company when I say that I rarely shoot major matches. Local matches are too small to worry about divisions, I go for the top spot regardless of division (the farthest carrot, someone said). Usually for me it's SS, but I do dust off the ol' 625 a fair amount too, because I do enjoy the added challenge despite it making me place lower down the list. At the local level, 8 shot or not, I doubt there will ever be much of a revolver following. I've never seen more than two, and usually it's none, unless I have mine out that day. People like me want to win overall, and no revolver is as easy as any decent semi-auto.

My point is, the competitive difference among revolver shooters means far less than competing against everyone else. Hmm, that still doesn't sound very clear. Anyway, I am in favor of the change, I do think 8 shooters would generally have an advantage over 6 shooters, and I don't care. I will continue to shoot revo when i feel like it, and I will not buy a 627. I am signed up to shoot the Nationals.

Edited February 7, 2013 by six-gun shooter

[Carmoney]

I would like a demonstration that there is a group who want to shoot their 8 shooters other than sitting at a keyboard and typing. I go to a lot of matches and I don't see anyone doing it.

Show me some actual evidence that there is a need for a place to shoot 8 shot revo's in USPSA.

That is the intention of this thread, Cliff.

Here's the truth. There are a very few people who are really good in Revolver Division as it sits today. You and I are both in that group. We enjoy the challenge of breaking down the stages by 6, and hitting those fast reloads, and all that advanced stuff. But beyond the top few, everybody else with a revolver struggles like hell just to survive the friggin' match. That's why so many people get started in Revolver, are very enthusiastic for a year or two, and then they're gone. They just get tired of persistently failing to master something which is damn difficult. Just think of all the people we know who were all gung ho on Revolver but we never see anymore! The elite revolver people like you and me (and the rest of the "Super 17") will always show up, but everybody else eventually drifts away to something they find more fun.

So yeah, I'm talking about finding a way to make Revo Division more fun to more people. And yeah, that probably means we need to make it a little easier for them. A little more humane than making them reload every 6 rounds and forcing them to use a gun that is inherently difficult for those with arthritic or female or small or old hands to shoot well. So if that means we compromise the purity of the challenge somewhat, I'm willing to do that in order to get more people to shoot Revolver with--locally, regionally, and nationally.

[Henry625]

I agree, the main goal here should be, how do we get more people to a match? The future of all shooting sports is participation, if a change brings just a few more shooters to the range that would normally not show up, it's a win- win!

Understand another thing, this sport isn't made up of Nationals shooters, it's club level monthly participation that buys the sponsors products. If an 8-shot infusion sparks someone to purchase another revolver, it's good for the game and the shooting industry.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Henry625

[COF]

I enjoy going to a match and have a bunch of bottom feeders go "WOW, that was a fast reload or that was smooth" when I shoot my wheelgun. I enjoy shooting wheelguns more than semis because I like the challenges - don't always rise to those challenges, but I have to try. I'm at the point that I don't mind shooting an IDPA match shooting major but an area or sectional USPSA match does start to seem like masochism. I have shot many local matches over the last 15 years where I was the only revolver shooter, didn't matter because that's what I wanted to shoot. If I had competition, fine, otherwise I just looked at my time and hits compared to the other shooters.

We've got 14 pages of comments on this right now so there's interest but we're starting to make dogfood out of the dead horse...If what Mike and Rob are proposing is a provisional change, why not try it? At the end of the trial period we'll have a whole lot better picture than we do now. Worst case scenario, it doesn't do anything to increase participation. Best case scenario, we bring in droves of new shooters and match directors start creating stages to balance the advantages of 6 or 8 shot revolvers. Reality will lie somewhere in between.

Time to jump into the water...

[Bill Nesbitt]

How about another poll?

Do you already own an 8 shot revolver?

If not, would you buy one to shoot?

[seanc]

How about another poll?

Do you already own an 8 shot revolver?

If not, would you buy one to shoot?

My guess is very very few people are going to go out and buy a 1k revolver, $100 holster, $100 in carrier's, etc...

And, as noted elsewhere in this thread, there is no 38 spec ammo that makes minor unless we are talking about $1++ a round buffalo bore ammo.

So its 357 magnum over the counter??

So, if you don't already have a 38/357 reload dies etc...add that to the tab.

[lcs]

How about another poll?

Do you already own an 8 shot revolver?

If not, would you buy one to shoot?

My guess is very very few people are going to go out and buy a 1k revolver, $100 holster, $100 in carrier's, etc...

And, as noted elsewhere in this thread, there is no 38 spec ammo that makes minor unless we are talking about $1++ a round buffalo bore ammo.

So its 357 magnum over the counter??

So, if you don't already have a 38/357 reload dies etc...add that to the tab.

I believe IDPA lowered Minor just for this reason! A little off thread, but you are going to see more and more 9MM store bought not making USPSA minor. The purpose is to grow Revolver Division.. If you allow Minor 38/357, make minor in Revo in tune with store bought PF. This is not rocket science.

Get folks shooting Revo and may be other manufactures will produce quality 8 shots at lower prices. Look at all the new production guns.

Bottom line--If the intent is to grow revolver division, something has to change and we need to look at positive ideas.

[toothguy]

How about another poll?

Do you already own an 8 shot revolver?

If not, would you buy one to shoot?

My guess is very very few people are going to go out and buy a 1k revolver, $100 holster, $100 in carrier's, etc...

And, as noted elsewhere in this thread, there is no 38 spec ammo that makes minor unless we are talking about $1++ a round buffalo bore ammo.

So its 357 magnum over the counter??

So, if you don't already have a 38/357 reload dies etc...add that to the tab.

If it's fun and shooters can be competitive they will. Look at the success of Cowboy Action. To get set up you need 2 pistols a rifle, shotgun and all the gear, yet it's a growing sport.

[mikeg1005]

That is the intention of this thread, Cliff.

Here's the truth. There are a very few people who are really good in Revolver Division as it sits today. You and I are both in that group. We enjoy the challenge of breaking down the stages by 6, and hitting those fast reloads, and all that advanced stuff. But beyond the top few, everybody else with a revolver struggles like hell just to survive the friggin' match. That's why so many people get started in Revolver, are very enthusiastic for a year or two, and then they're gone. They just get tired of persistently failing to master something which is damn difficult. Just think of all the people we know who were all gung ho on Revolver but we never see anymore! The elite revolver people like you and me (and the rest of the "Super 17") will always show up, but everybody else eventually drifts away to something they find more fun.

I don't shoot revolver divison... but if I did... what you stated above is the exact reason I would... Becuase its challenging. I said "no" to the poll above becuase I would want to master (or at least attempt) all of what is needed to be a good revolver shooter... dumbing it down in any way would make it less interesting. One other thing about this... It seems like everyone is assuming that people don't shoot revolver because they can't win... I don't think thats the case, becuase if it was... no one who isn't 'really good' would shoot any division in this sport. I think many here are trying to ease up this division to compenstate for people's laziness. You need to put the time in to be good...just like you guys did. Why should a division that is based on good reloads, stage breakdown, and long trigger pull be changed to something that it isn't... becuase someone doesn't want to practice?

So yeah, I'm talking about finding a way to make Revo Division more fun to more people. And yeah, that probably means we need to make it a little easier for them. A little more humane than making them reload every 6 rounds and forcing them to use a gun that is inherently difficult for those with arthritic or female or small or old hands to shoot well. So if that means we compromise the purity of the challenge somewhat, I'm willing to do that in order to get more people to shoot Revolver with--locally, regionally, and nationally.

Wouldn't this be the same logic as making stages shorter/less movement/less leaning/bending/less physical requirements because Americans are overweight on average... and those who are healthy can move better? A revolver is a revolver.... they have big grips... they are larger pistols... they are more challenging.

I don't think 8 rounds would help... Most people complain about revolvers because the reloads are tough and the trigger pull sucks..... and without a trigger job and reloads, it will always be heavy. That will still be a problem even with 8 rounds... the added two rounds for stage breakdown?? I could see how that would speed stuff up, but stage breakdown is something that comes to a person from shooting matches/experiencing complex stages. They will still have to learn how to break stage down in 8 rounds.

Mike, BTW, I still think single stack minor sucks.

Mike.

Edited February 7, 2013 by mikeg1005

[Dragon11]

The wheels are definitely going round and round with this, and to some extent thats a good thing. I certainly realize that no matter what scenario we come up with somebody's going to gain something and someones going to loose something. This discussion so far has been centered between the 625 style guns and the 627's. I've heard comments that the 625 is the dominant gun right now, and that you can't even by one new anymore, unless its a 4 inch. I've heard that with the introduction of the 8 shot 627 it will become the dominant gun, replacing the 625, and depending on what side of the fence your on, your either gun love that or hate it. Forgive my bluntness, but why are we debating about catering to one gun versus another gun. Either way, depending on who you listen to, we will still be left with one gun. Why are we not discussing ideas that will bring in the most guns and the most shooters?

I have brought up the six shot minor issue. To be frank, I'm not an upper level shooter, although I can hold my own, and going to a six shot minor doesn't benefit me. I have 625's and a 627, so even if we ended up with a 625 or 627 world, I'm not out anything by the reason of logic. Through all of these discussions, we can't come up with a scenario were a K frame, an L frame or an N frame can compete in the same division? I don't agree with the argument that K frames and L frames have had the option of already competing. There scored minor vs. major, and if we are willing to bring in the eight shot as minor, we can't make exceptions for the other framed guns. At least one thats realistic for them all to compete. Deosn't an all minor division do that? It works for production division.

ICORE and IDPA make there style of sports open enough to accept these guns, if USPSA did the same thing, why aren't they shooting with us? They do in ICORE and IDPA. I am committed, 100% to shooting revolver. Last year I shot the Ohio state match, the Area 5 championship, and The Memphis Charity Challenge with my 625 revolver. Throughout the last two years I have seen and met top and bottom level revolver shooters and I've learned alot. Whether they currently have them, shoot them in matches, or will have to buy them, it doesn't matter, where and what is the biggest pool of revolver shooters that were going to pull people from, its not just one gun, I don't care if its a 625 or a 627. If you guys want to disagree with this I'm all for it, I want whats best for the division. But with all the knowledge and experience in this forum on revolvers there has got to be a way to see this through, so that everyone benefits. Any change to revolver division is going to be a big deal, shouldn't we get the biggest bang for our buck out of that?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Dragon11

[Bubber]

I would like a demonstration that there is a group who want to shoot their 8 shooters other than sitting at a keyboard and typing. I go to a lot of matches and I don't see anyone doing it.

Show me some actual evidence that there is a need for a place to shoot 8 shot revo's in USPSA.

You want to make a major change in the rules of USPSA but you don't want to have to demonstrate a need. Do you really think that's how it should work??

One other thing, you are the only revo shooter at the match and you would rather be the winner with no competition than shoot in L-10 or production and compete with someone???

I did just that Cliff. From 2002 until I found out there was a Revolver Diviison. I shot open, Revolver 8 shot ported and optics. Did I win? Not often. When there was a division for Revo I shot that, and was the only one for a long time. Met someone form OKC shooting a Revo (Waltermitty) and started shooting there. He got the ICORE match started there and after a few years we can get five to ten revo shooters at a local match. At USSA It is only ChrisC and myself. But sometimes we get the other Roger form Arkansas to show up and he competes with us. For me shooting major at 165 PF is to much for my arms so I shoot minor. If major would come down to 145 to 150 ish I may give it a try and if not I will still shoot my L frame. I give up a few points per run but my times are comaparable with the guys I shoot with. What keeps me from going to the Nats (prior to this next one) is getting a slot. It is hard to win one at an area match with low revo attendance. But will see you guys at the 2013 match. later rdd

[Matt Griffin]

I'll just reiterate: I perform very, very few standing reloads. The last Nationals was one of the worst matches I've seen for it, and I think there was a grand total of three for the entire match. I make longer, more difficult shots to make it all come out right in the end, but that's part of the game. If the division turns into shooting a classifier at each port and then doing a reload to the next port with plenty of time for everyone, then I'll probably move back to Limited for USPSA where there's some breakdown to be done. I enjoy the mental aspect of the game more than the shooting, to be honest.

What I really don't get is this: Why are we having this discussion in USPSA when ICORE exists? Eight shots? Check. Minor only? Check. Speedloader division? Check. Big National match with great prizes? Check. Open Division for the bad eyesight crowd? Check. Regional matches with prizes and lots of competition? Check.

Here's the big question: What is it that USPSA has that you want, that's different from ICORE?

[Bill Nesbitt]

Another poll idea.

Do you own any of the following revolvers and would you shoot them in USPSA if there was a place for them where you could be competitive?

625 with moon clips major or minor

627 with or with out moon clips major or minor

K/L frame with speedloaders or moon clips major or minor

Other, name what you have.

Somebody else brought up IDPA before I did. Thank you.

Speedloader revolvers have changed revolver shooting in IDPA from a 625 division to a division where common revolvers that many people already have, are competitive.

I think shooting major in any revolver sucks. If you want to revive revolver have it be minor only like in Production and keep it 6 shots before a reload. There are way more 6 shot K/L frames out there in safes than either 625s or 627s. There is very little time difference between speedloaders and moon clips with practice and it has been shown in the past that a good speedloader shooter can win. Make revolver all minor and keep everything else the same. Jerry's hands will thank you.

[lora]

USPSA is a auto dominated organization, and with it the stage or COF is often not Revolver friendly, therefore, doesn't it make sence to try and adapt somewhat within the majority instead of whining to the majority to accept us. Sorry it sounded almost like an immigration rant. 8 rounds still challenges the brain just ask the SSTK guys.

We love revo, got it, been shooting the class for 5 years now mixed with steel and ICORE, but the numbers just aren't there as it is now, and this thread, just like the others from the previous years is literally screaming for attention, regardless if it is a rule change, provisional division, whatever.

And one additional point of support for inclusion of 8 shooters, is the cross discipline use. One gun used in USPSA, ICORE and, wait for it, STEEL. The 6 shot gun is just not in the game of steel, but 8 sure is. Combine this with the other elements and I suspect it starts to be more appealing to a new to division shooter in value.