Should USPSA allow 8-shot minor in Revolver Division?

[sbcman]

Lets have a rimfire division.

Now we're talking! So long as there is a class for 10shot 617s

Various posts here from you, Paul and Mike have described me exactly. I struggle knowing how to handle course break down- it's probably why I'm IDPA primarily. It's incredible what those who like to put the puzzle together can come up with, but I'm not there, yet. I'll admit that I viewed going to 8 as a way to curve-grade. I still think it would be fun- don't know how many it would gain to the division- don't know if it would hurt or help longterm, but learning and enjoying course breakdown would help a lot of guys currently, I think.

Maybe the collective revolver minds here should put out a vid on it .

[cliffwalsh]

Cliff,

I'm with you, I'm right there with you. If I came across confused I'm sorry. I like revolver the way it is, I like major. I didn't start hanging out with Phil Griggs and watching Matt, Mike, Jerry or you shoot to persuade people otherwise. It was for the sake of argument against the possibility of a forced change. I regret my clumsiness and not coming across more intelligent.

Ed

That wasn't just for you Ed (didn't know it was you either). A lot of this discussion had to do with shooting minor and that major was too much. The rules as is accommodate that. In IDPA, you have no choice, run moons you shoot major or you get DQ'ed. In USPSA, the shooter has a choice. You lose points but you gain speed in minor. That is a part of the game just like planning a stage. I am going to shoot to my to my strengths. If I can't handle major then I better be accurate. Allowing 8 shots is one thing and I'm against that but would probably still shoot. Forcing minor goes against the basics of USPSA, DVC. By forcing 8 shot minor, we are just shooting ICORE. Why not use all this energy and effort as a platform to start more ICORE clubs and I'm sure USPSA will get some crossover.

[cliffwalsh]

This whole thing restarted at the last nationals with Jerry M. Mike was there and if I do not state in correctly, please speak up. Jerry has been wanting to shoot minor for a while because of pain in hands. He knows with Matt catching up quickly that he cannot shoot minor and win. He is trying to make minor not just competitive but an advantage so he can continue to win. That is as simple as I can state it. That is the reason the change is being seriously considered. I am sorry to see that Jerry is slipping (trying to catch him all these years is one of the reasons I got into revo and I still think he is the best all around shooter ever) and it happens to us all. We ( I really mean me) get fatter, lose eyesight, and can't move as fast. That is life. Should we then try to change the rules so everyone has to come down to our level? My eyes are crap right now and I know many are going through the same thing. Should I be campaigning to allow dot sights revo so I can still be competitive and everyone else will have use one too or should i go shoot in open where the rules allow it?

[lora]

This whole thing restarted at the last nationals with Jerry M. Mike was there and if I do not state in correctly, please speak up. Jerry has been wanting to shoot minor for a while because of pain in hands. He knows with Matt catching up quickly that he cannot shoot minor and win. He is trying to make minor not just competitive but an advantage so he can continue to win. That is as simple as I can state it. That is the reason the change is being seriously considered. I am sorry to see that Jerry is slipping (trying to catch him all these years is one of the reasons I got into revo and I still think he is the best all around shooter ever) and it happens to us all. We ( I really mean me) get fatter, lose eyesight, and can't move as fast. That is life. Should we then try to change the rules so everyone has to come down to our level? My eyes are crap right now and I know many are going through the same thing. Should I be campaigning to allow dot sights revo so I can still be competitive and everyone else will have use one too or should i go shoot in open where the rules allow it?

Cliff, how in the world did you get to that conspiracy theory, this issue is about trying to expand the shooting numbers in the division. It has been on again off again for several years, just check the search, heck, mike probably has the threads saved. Please, tell me if I missed something and I will go away with humblest apologies. With all the things you mention above, none off them in the slightest are my reasons for my tenacity, it's strictly for hopes of expanding the competitors into the revo division, whether they come from new shooters, old shooters, D to GM, ICORE, Steel, IDPA, I don't care. I just want them to come into the division.

Edited February 7, 2013 by lora

[bdpaz]

This whole thing restarted at the last nationals with Jerry M. Mike was there and if I do not state in correctly, please speak up. Jerry has been wanting to shoot minor for a while because of pain in hands. He knows with Matt catching up quickly that he cannot shoot minor and win. He is trying to make minor not just competitive but an advantage so he can continue to win. That is as simple as I can state it. That is the reason the change is being seriously considered. I am sorry to see that Jerry is slipping (trying to catch him all these years is one of the reasons I got into revo and I still think he is the best all around shooter ever) and it happens to us all. We ( I really mean me) get fatter, lose eyesight, and can't move as fast. That is life. Should we then try to change the rules so everyone has to come down to our level? My eyes are crap right now and I know many are going through the same thing. Should I be campaigning to allow dot sights revo so I can still be competitive and everyone else will have use one too or should i go shoot in open where the rules allow it?

Changed my mind. Cliff has expressed an opinion which is his right.

Edited February 7, 2013 by bdpaz

[cliffwalsh]

No, I'm saying that because Jerry wants this it will be considered. You can agree or disagree with him but this would never happen if Jerry was against it.

[JohnRodriguez]

I think that with the current hi-cap mags becoming illegal, maybe, and going back to 10rns mags again in our possible future, a 8 round revo could attract a lot of shooters from other divisions to the revo side. One gun and single stack would be the only division you can't compete in.

[cliffwalsh]

I guess in NY 6 shot looks pretty good right now.

[leas327]

The King of Revo wants it. TGO wants it . The majority of this poll wants it. ICORE is healthy. USPSA revo is pretty much dead. A few of the die hards are against it. 17 Revos at nationals, 1 or 2 at every club match, 382 replies to this thread.

This conversation has happened every year since I have been involved in this sport. Another year, another stalemate. See you all next year.

For you Rob,

Ryan Leas

A72557

[cliffwalsh]

Is ICORE healthy?? Last I heard there was little if any growth.

[seanc]

This whole thing restarted at the last nationals with Jerry M. Mike was there and if I do not state in correctly, please speak up. Jerry has been wanting to shoot minor for a while because of pain in hands. He knows with Matt catching up quickly that he cannot shoot minor and win. He is trying to make minor not just competitive but an advantage so he can continue to win. That is as simple as I can state it. That is the reason the change is being seriously considered. I am sorry to see that Jerry is slipping (trying to catch him all these years is one of the reasons I got into revo and I still think he is the best all around shooter ever) and it happens to us all. We ( I really mean me) get fatter, lose eyesight, and can't move as fast. That is life. Should we then try to change the rules so everyone has to come down to our level? My eyes are crap right now and I know many are going through the same thing. Should I be campaigning to allow dot sights revo so I can still be competitive and everyone else will have use one too or should i go shoot in open where the rules allow it?

Literally everything in this post makes me sad.

[lora]

No, I'm saying that because Jerry wants this it will be considered. You can agree or disagree with him but this would never happen if Jerry was against it.

On this we definitely agree.

Btw, sorry were not squared at area 6, see you there.

Edited February 8, 2013 by lora

[pskys2]

I guess in NY 6 shot looks pretty good right now.

Wonder if an 8 shot anything is legal in NY?

If Revo is to follow what success SS has had, it will need to become a must go to match and Slots then become important. Area's will start seeing more Revo's. Which will trickle down to the clubs.

Now if only I could score a 6 1/2" M29, moon clip it, find some 200 grain RN Plated/Jacketed/Coated Bullets I'd tell Carmoney and his 625 ...

But alas my 4" M29 will have to stay as backup.

Edited February 8, 2013 by pskys2

[jhgtyre]

I am classified with a revolver in IDPA, ICORE and USPSA. The USPSA classification is deceptive because MOST of my USPSA revolver participation has been in Open with my optic sighted 627. I like revolvers. My wife shoots USPSA and ICORE with her revolvers. Revolvers really interest me and my family. USPSA Revolver division does not. Yeah the challenge of breaking the stage down into 6's is alluring, for awhile, but those standing reloads suck and shooting major out of a gun that has its own mass and my flesh as its only recoil reduction is a pain; literally.

I really feel that we are on the verge of losing this division entirely just because we want to be polite to an extremely small group of people that want revolver in USPSA to be about 6 shot guns. I still want someone to explain to me how ICORE, THE revolver sport, only has ONE of its three divisions setup to favor 6 shot guns and USPSA, the RUN AND GUN SPORT, is still worried about them in any way.

Rob is offering his support in saving revolver division. I, for one, and really excited about the opportunity to grow the division and shoot it with equipment that is competitive and fun. Thank you Rob for going out of your way to help us do this.

-ld

ps - I am planning to shoot revo nationals this year with my 629 because the 625 isn't the ONLY 6 shooter with big bullets and easy reloads

[cliffwalsh]

ICORE is all set up for 6 round guns. There are no more reloads with a 6 shooter or and 8 shooter unless the course is not setup according to the rules. The only advantage of the 8 shot is more misses without reloading.

If the goal is bring new shooters out to local matches, do we really think that having to have a $1000 gun is the answer. If they do buy the gun, factory 38 special does not make minor so they have to reload or get ammo from someone who does.

You bring up ICORE and the one division that is 6 gun only and that is how you get new shooters. Classic is designed to let shooters use the guns they most likely already own and all they need to do is get some speedloaders You can make chrono with factory ammo.

How many 627's are really out there compared to L and k frames and the comparable colts and rugers?

Which way is going to draw more new shooters?????

[jhgtyre]

I see a sea of 627's in ICORE Limited and Open. Sure there are 6 shooters but you cannot be saying they are the predominate choice, can you?

-ld

[mrmetalweld57]

Let me get this straight. Some here don't want our 8 shot revolvers to shoot against there 6 shot revolvers in REVOLVER class because we should go shoot against 10 shot SEMI-AUTOMATICS in Limited 10 and Production class. That kind of thinking is why up till now I've only shot one uspsa match a year, and that would be Memphis, because it is relatively 6 round neutral. Challenging to shoot 8 round neutral courses,yes, fun, not particlarly... to me. After reading all this crap, I'm about ready to sell my 625 and forget revolver altogether. And yes I am signed up for the nationals. Trying to support it!!!

[bdpaz]

I have a first bit of data comparing 6 shot major to 8 shot minor. In a small match tonight consisting of 5 straightforward stages (each one emphasizing one thing - movement, transitions, etc. but no long difficult shots tonight. Kind of like classifiers but fun) Rob Leatham shot with both a major 625 and a minor .38 super 627. Four stages were capacity neutral with multiple targets from multiple locations or specified shots less than 6 (so more total reloads with the 6 shot but no disadvantage otherwise).The fifth had an unloaded start to a plate rack (6 plates), a port for 4 paper, another port with 4 paper with all targets relatively close. I don't have the revolver results but in the combined overall he was 4th with 284 match points shooting minor and 5th with 268 match points with major. On the stage with the plate rack and 8 shots per port he was 1.7 seconds slower with the 625 but he had the same 104 out of 110 points with both. So first sample isn't conclusive but given the amount of easy "A"s it's not surprising that 8 shot minor got the higher - but not overwhelmingly so - score.

On Sunday the 17th we'll have a better test. There is a monthly match that typically has a high round count and difficult shots. We will be keep it running into the afternoon and are encouraging revolver shooters to shoot twice. Once with a legal 6 shot gun (major or minor) and then again with a 7 or 8 shot minor gun. Those without a USPSA legal gun will just shoot in the afternoon with their "hi cap" minor guns.

In addition, at our other monthly matches I'll be encouraging revolver shooters to shoot their 8 shot guns in L-10 and will combine their results with the official revo shooters (if any!) and send out unauthorised revo results. This is primarily to get a feel for the turnout if USPSA was to allow 8 shot minor so I probably won't have detailed data to release. It will be enough work in its simplest form, especially now that it has been revealed that it is all a sham to push through 8 shot minor just to help my close personal friend Jerry M keep winning.

Edited February 8, 2013 by bdpaz

[cliffwalsh]

I see a sea of 627's in ICORE Limited and Open. Sure there are 6 shooters but you cannot be saying they are the predominate choice, can you?

-ld

There are more 627's for sure but the rules are set up so 6 and 8 compete on even ground. Comparing USPSA to ICORE is apples and oranges. Again, when ICORE wanted to bring in new shooters, they went with 6 shot guns and speedloaders. Why do you think that was?

Is bringing in new shooters the goal here??

[cliffwalsh]

Let me get this straight. Some here don't want our 8 shot revolvers to shoot against there 6 shot revolvers in REVOLVER class because we should go shoot against 10 shot SEMI-AUTOMATICS in Limited 10 and Production class. That kind of thinking is why up till now I've only shot one uspsa match a year, and that would be Memphis, because it is relatively 6 round neutral. Challenging to shoot 8 round neutral courses,yes, fun, not particlarly... to me. After reading all this crap, I'm about ready to sell my 625 and forget revolver altogether. And yes I am signed up for the nationals. Trying to support it!!!

I guess you don't get it. Production and L-10 are the divisions the 8 shots can be used right now at full capacity. If there really is a group who wants to shoot those guns in USPSA, show up at matches and shoot them. How does sitting home typing on your computer show there is a need for change.

[Carmoney]

So first sample isn't conclusive but given the amount of easy "A"s it's not surprising that 8 shot minor got the higher - but not overwhelmingly so - score.

Very interesting!

If all you guys would give this idea half a chance, I am convinced we will find that 6-major and 8-minor are not nearly as far apart as most of you people think!! In fact, those two options might be pretty dang close, especially in the context of the major match situation, where the stages are varied and well-designed.

I believed that back in 2005 when this topic first arose here, and I continue to believe it today.

[cliffwalsh]

I have a first bit of data comparing 6 shot major to 8 shot minor. In a small match tonight consisting of 5 straightforward stages (each one emphasizing one thing - movement, transitions, etc. but no long difficult shots tonight. Kind of like classifiers but fun) Rob Leatham shot with both a major 625 and a minor .38 super 627. Four stages were capacity neutral with multiple targets from multiple locations or specified shots less than 6 (so more total reloads with the 6 shot but no disadvantage otherwise).The fifth had an unloaded start to a plate rack (6 plates), a port for 4 paper, another port with 4 paper with all targets relatively close. I don't have the revolver results but in the combined overall he was 4th with 284 match points shooting minor and 5th with 268 match points with major. On the stage with the plate rack and 8 shots per port he was 1.7 seconds slower with the 625 but he had the same 104 out of 110 points with both. So first sample isn't conclusive but given the amount of easy "A"s it's not surprising that 8 shot minor got the higher - but not overwhelmingly so - score.

That's interesting. Do the guy who set up the AREA 2 match, do stages for the monthly match also?? There were a lot of 7 and 8 round arrays. Looking back, an 8 shooter would have been very hard to beat there. I guess the question is, is that typical of your club? It wouldn't take much to make the stages so there are enough options to make it pretty even.

[TGO]

+1000% this is what the Revolver game is about IMO.

Our local matches are competing against each other to see who has the highest round count or so it seems. 6 stages 175-200 rounds. I love this the more shots the more fun. Even started seeing some 34-36 round count stages.

As Matt said in a local match I average 3-4 standing reloads and 1-2 of those are the usually required reloads for the classifier.

Sometimes I screw up and miss a steel or a plate on the star and have to do a reload but that is all on me.

Rarely ever do I get locked down into a standing reload but it happens and I just do it and go on. All the other revolver shooters have to do it to.

I admitt we have some really good MD's that set up fantastic courses of fire BUT they are NEVER Revolver netural, and I don't want them to be.

Why does everyone hate standing reloads? It is part of the game.

Even open shooters and limited shooters mess up and do a standing reload.

A 32 round field course will require 5 reloads with a 6 shot gun and 4 with a 8 shot gun. Thats only 1 more reolad.

I know the 8 shot guns *flow* better but if I wanted *flow* I would shoot any of the other divisions. Flow=EASY and to me at least boring compared to Revolver.

Well put. What I'm getting from the 8 shot folks is that revolver is too hard the way it is with major and reloads. Is that the goal, to make USPSA easier? Will that get more shooters? Lets have a rimfire division. There are plenty of people who shoot rimfire that have be excluded from USPSA not to mention bringing in the kids and lets face it, if its for the kids, it has to be a good idea.

Really cliff? Do you mean that or are you going for shock value? Do you know what this sport is based on, and do you really wanna go to .22's when you do not want 8 minor? This is starting to get silly. Sorry for being abrupt but I gotta laugh.

Anyway...I just shot a match tonight that was decidedly not 6 shot neutral. In 5 stages of which 2 were 6 reload 6, I did 3 extra loads with the Major 6 and 3 standing loads. I did only one standing with the 8 minor, to avoid an extra load in a very short move. I dropped huge amounts of points but was much faster with the 8 on 2 stages and about the same on the other field course. Minor 8 beat Major 6 by 3-4 percent. I won the match with my SS minor 10 and can tell you for those thinking about it, to be competitive in production with a wheel is going to be tough. My revo's were 70? percent of my SS. No penalties with any. I feel I shot both revolvers about the same. Botched one load with each. never had an extra round with either and had a clicker with the 625 causing me to be a second slower on a stage after cycling 5 more times to get the 6th shot off. Gotta say, the results are pretty close considering... I'm hoping Brad can give you more details on this.

[TGO]

Cliff,

I'm with you, I'm right there with you. If I came across confused I'm sorry. I like revolver the way it is, I like major. I didn't start hanging out with Phil Griggs and watching Matt, Mike, Jerry or you shoot to persuade people otherwise. It was for the sake of argument against the possibility of a forced change. I regret my clumsiness and not coming across more intelligent.

Ed

That wasn't just for you Ed (didn't know it was you either). A lot of this discussion had to do with shooting minor and that major was too much. The rules as is accommodate that. In IDPA, you have no choice, run moons you shoot major or you get DQ'ed. In USPSA, the shooter has a choice. You lose points but you gain speed in minor. That is a part of the game just like planning a stage. I am going to shoot to my to my strengths. If I can't handle major then I better be accurate. Allowing 8 shots is one thing and I'm against that but would probably still shoot. Forcing minor goes against the basics of USPSA, DVC. By forcing 8 shot minor, we are just shooting ICORE. Why not use all this energy and effort as a platform to start more ICORE clubs and I'm sure USPSA will get some crossover.

Who is saying you have to shoot 8 shot minor? I'm saying you can't beat an 8 minor with a 6 major at a match that is very far from 6 shot fair. Notice I said fair, not neutral.

So who cares? Your a tough guy and like the 6 major recoil, shoot it! Who's trying to get you not to? Are you now saying let's have 8 major instead of 6? You think that's gonna help a 625 shooter? The concept is 6 major and 8 minor may offer the chance for some who do not now shoot the division to try it. It's OK to not want the change, but let's stay on topic. This is about as convoluted as a thread can get about now...

And just to make a point everybody, if a goal here is to beat Jerry, adding optic revolver, Major or minor would probably guarantee his reign for a lot, lot longer. He can contest the Steel Challenge in open class with a damn near stock 627 with a scope on it!

[TGO]

This whole thing restarted at the last nationals with Jerry M. Mike was there and if I do not state in correctly, please speak up. Jerry has been wanting to shoot minor for a while because of pain in hands. He knows with Matt catching up quickly that he cannot shoot minor and win. He is trying to make minor not just competitive but an advantage so he can continue to win. That is as simple as I can state it. That is the reason the change is being seriously considered. I am sorry to see that Jerry is slipping (trying to catch him all these years is one of the reasons I got into revo and I still think he is the best all around shooter ever) and it happens to us all. We ( I really mean me) get fatter, lose eyesight, and can't move as fast. That is life. Should we then try to change the rules so everyone has to come down to our level? My eyes are crap right now and I know many are going through the same thing. Should I be campaigning to allow dot sights revo so I can still be competitive and everyone else will have use one too or should i go shoot in open where the rules allow it?

Ok this one has put me over the top. Time for some truth. Cliff, that is total garbage. Mike, if you gotta kick me off this forum OK. I can take it no more, I gotta tell the story.

This was in the works long before the Nationals in Vegas last year. The whole stand alone Revolver Nationals and 8 shot minor was brought up by yours truly last year at the SS Nationals because I wanted to have a chance for me and others who never get to shoot revo at the nationals because of other commitments. I guessed it would also bring in a lot of shooters to the Revo Nationals. It appears that was a good idea by the number of preentries for the Revolver Nationals. So if you wanna blame some one for this happening to you, IT IS ME!

After I was DQ'd for dropping my gun. Phil, myself as the one who presented the idea to him and Dick Metcalf, owner of Pasa, had an impromptu meeting while scores were being tabulated. That discussion showed enough promise for Phil to look into it. Jerry wasn't even there. Maybe he does want this but I can guarantee you this is not a plan against you to make Jerry more competitive. This is ridiculous but does show what you are really feeling. AND what your motivation for no change is really about.

The whole idea was to find an avenue to bring more shooters into USPSA revolver class. I gotta go bedtime now, I'm too old, fat, slow and my old eyes are too tired to continue this. I'm really looking forward to Barry.

The post earlier by someone saying this is making them sad is also making me sad, and annoyed.

Edited February 8, 2013 by TGO