Sponsorships?

[ssracer56]

I believe that our juniors are extremely important and I try to get the local ones I know support because I know they are our future. In a dying sport we need all the new talent we can get. These kids are important and I hope everyone realizes the value in supporting them so that they can continue to flourish in what is realistically a small subculture among sports.

I agree, but will also have to add my 2 cents, that all juniors are not created equal. What one junior may or may not get is not based on their skill set it seems more relevence is placed on gender. There are very good juniors that have obvisous talent both male and female but more help seems to go to the girls. I applaud anyone willing to help ALL the kids out. Just wish all the kids got equal treatment. I know the juniors who you have helped Pinman and I applaud you sir those are some pretty awesome boys.

[MarkCO]

For some shooters, the "stamp" of "pro" seems to be connected to the sponsorship. We all know some GMs who are at the top who are not sponsored for whatever reason. On the flip side, some of the "pro" sponsored shooters absolutely suck at marketing and switch sponsors often. There are some that I would consider "aggressive" marketers who have a handful of sponsors, but really are not top tier pros, but they are good people who bring a stamp of approval to their sponsors. At the same time, there are some sponsored shooters who, as an RO I have been able to witness integrity issues and as such, I won't use their sponsors product. It is certainly a mixed bag and I think assigning any blanket statement would be wrong.

Some cases, like Miculek and TGO for instance, can be looked at on a singular basis. They are recognizeably top tier and have the wins to prove it. They have personality, lack of arrogance and integrity in how they conduct themselves. They have also maintained a long and lasting relationship with flagship companies. We have another that fits that mold who is currently unsponsored in Dave.

I know what my annual cash outlay is for participating in the shooting sports and I also know that if "Amazing Gun Company" offered me a "full-ride" sponsorship, I would be required to shoot more matches, have a LOT more pressure, and in the end, my annual disposable income would be less.

Last night, my 7 year old asked me if I would "sponsor" him for his school read-a-thon (and the kid can read!). I told him sure, I would provide full room and board for the duration of the read-a-thon. He negotiated and got some new clothes thrown in on the deal, and a brick of .22 ammo.

[38supPat]

Lol...made it through about 5 minutes of that video and had to shut it off, one guy sort of gets it but gets lost in the background noise of the other two.....who do I see to get those 5 minutes back?

[PINMAN44]

Hi guys,

Maybe I can provide you insight that may be helpful in regards to sponsorship.

My name is Robby. I'm a 23 year old USPSA Master and I compete in Steel Challenge, falling steel, and various rim-fire matches.

Hey, Robby. There was a lot of good stuff in what you said, right up until:

I believe that our juniors are extremely important and I try to get the local ones I know support because I know they are our future. In a dying sport we need all the new talent we can get. These kids are important and I hope everyone realizes the value in supporting them so that they can continue to flourish in what is realistically a small subculture among sports.

We are a dying sport? Really? And here I thought we were at an all-time high in number of affiliated clubs, members, and participation in major matches, in addition to having more media exposure, and more people interested in the idea of shooting competitions, than ever before.

Yes, I know this is off-topic---but I'm thinking that as a sponsored shooter who seems to have a good idea of what that means, you might want to more carefully consider your word choice, since I'm thinking calling us a "dying sport" is probably going to negatively impact you, and through you, your sponsors.

Overall, I think Robby has some good points (other than the "dying sport")---but Ben does too. I also think that there is a significant difference between having a couple of logos on your shirt for some materials-levels sponsorship ("I get my bullets for free from these guys") and wearing a team shirt ("I work for these guys"). Mostly, I think there is a significant difference between saying "I use this company's bullets exclusively---they are really consistently accurate in my firearms" and having to say "I work for this company, and EVERYTHING THEY MAKE is just fantastic."

Hi Thomas,

I must apologize for stating "dying sport" but you must understand where I come from. I'm an athlete in many different sports and when I compare the Macro level sports with the amount of advertising, funding, and following to shooting that is where I consider our sport a smaller sub culture. And so this topic doesnt throw off the initial idea of this thread the extreme costs associated with this in addition to the laws, age requirements, and difficulties/stigma associated with guns and our sport make it difficult for people to participate. I.E. People wanting to shoot in NJ with 30 round mags for instance without being hassled. I can pick up a football and practice with my buddies for free. So the reason I said dying was that I joined this sport in 03' saw that it was extremely expensive, hard to practice on my own legally at the age of 14, and I was in school and was enjoying the ladies etc. I believe our retention needs to improve and that's where I came up with "dying." The essential idea that before things like 3 GUN you had very little return and difficulty with being able to afford the sport with ease.

When I first joined this sport I had the honor of being taught by three GM's one local by the name of Paul. He said Robby "There is no money in this sport, if you want to win big go play golf." The neat thing however is that you CAN compete against the best shooters in the world on a regular basis.

With the rise in newer sports like 3GUN and shows like Topshot, hot shots, etc. maybe we will surpass our current membership in USPSA. The majority of my sponsors who understand where I'm coming from understand the idea that helping the community at large through our juniors and dedicated shooters will be a means for retention.

In no way do I mean to be offensive. I sincerely want to see this sport flourish and I would like the negative stigma that some people have of gun owners to diminish.

I hope this doesn't drift the thread.

Hope this finds you well.

Robby Orent

(A-50211)

[technetium-99m]

Just throwing my perspective on this. If you wear someones Jersey you really take on a requirement of exhibiting yourself as a sportsman. You also need to provide your sponsor with a return of some kind, I mean they are asking you to advertise for them. I'm such a quiet person naturally that I'll probably never put on someones Jersey, I don't think I can provide that advertising for them.

[PINMAN44]

I believe that our juniors are extremely important and I try to get the local ones I know support because I know they are our future. In a dying sport we need all the new talent we can get. These kids are important and I hope everyone realizes the value in supporting them so that they can continue to flourish in what is realistically a small subculture among sports.

I agree, but will also have to add my 2 cents, that all juniors are not created equal. What one junior may or may not get is not based on their skill set it seems more relevence is placed on gender. There are very good juniors that have obvisous talent both male and female but more help seems to go to the girls. I applaud anyone willing to help ALL the kids out. Just wish all the kids got equal treatment. I know the juniors who you have helped Pinman and I applaud you sir those are some pretty awesome boys.

I agree with that completely. For 23, I'm pretty adept to what goes on in the community in regards to that statement. I currently have has the honor to help those two boys and a girl out in the mid-west. They are great kids who demonstrate integrity, charisma, professionalism, and are excellent communicators. These children need help to be competitive, in a sport that demands a ton they could use a leg up in return for their professional representation of the support that they receive.

I was fortunate to have people from a young age support me. My father is my main guy. I had Bill Sahlberg help me when I was 15 among many others.

So in regards to sponsorship I think it is a good idea if it can benefit both parties in a proper fashion. Sponsorship is about making relationships and keeping them.

Thank you for the kind words Steven.

[Skydiver]

So was there any point to that rambling mess?

Sorry for posting that link. I finally got around to watching the podcast late last night. Usually, they have something relevant and on topic to say.

[carlosa]

So was there any point to that rambling mess?

Sorry for posting that link. I finally got around to watching the podcast late last night. Usually, they have something relevant and on topic to say.

Lol apology accepted

I'll send you the bill within 30 days....

[Supermoto]

Just throwing my perspective on this. If you wear someones Jersey you really take on a requirement of exhibiting yourself as a sportsman. You also need to provide your sponsor with a return of some kind, I mean they are asking you to advertise for them. I'm such a quiet person naturally that I'll probably never put on someones Jersey, I don't think I can provide that advertising for them.

I would add that if you are giving recommendations on a specific product, you should inform the person that you are being compensated to do so. At matches, its easy to recognize, big bright colorful shirts. On forums, it not as easy to recognized if advices, even if honest, has been paid for.

[itchy]

I just posted the below on my site about it:

Due to some recent success I have had in competition, I have been getting a lot of questions from people about sponsorship. It has made me really reflect on what exactly it is that I am in the shooting sports for, and what it is I want to get out of it.

Let me just say right away that I have not picked up any sponsors this winter. I am not pursuing any and I am not planning on it. I have the gear I need and I can afford to shoot on my own without support. I can’t shoot every match I would like to, or even most of them, but I can shoot enough. I can hit all the matches within driving range and then fly to Nationals.. I guess that is all I really need.

After being around some of the upper echelon shooters in the sport, I get the sense that having actual sponsorship is pretty much what marks someone has a top shooter. I see most of these guys get put in the position of taking money from people whose products they aren’t really that interested in. Max has an Open gun with Sig stamped on it for example. I talk with quite a few guys that have shot guns they didn’t even like. I can’t even tell you how many guys on Smith and Wesson’s rather large team told me they were dissatisfied with their M&P pistols. I even watched a serious malfunction take one of these guys out of the running for a Nationals win in 2010.

So… just to clarify… a guy shot a gun because he got paid to and had it screw him over at the National Championships. That sort of thing is very common.

I think the worst thing about sponsorship is that most people get a LOT less money than you might think. 5000 dollars a year is actually quite a lot to get from a gun company these days. While that money does pay for much of your shooting expenses for the year, it wont change your life. I am not saying that I am above selling out… I am saying that I don’t think I should sell myself that cheaply. I certainly wont shop myself around to try and get money from people to try and shill products I don’t believe in. I guess I just don’t have it in me.

If someone does manage to land a sponsorship deal with a company, there really is no telling how long it will last. If that gun company gets a new marketing director, then you are looking for a new sponsor.. and probably changing guns.

All in all, I see sponsorship as a distraction from shooting. I am not concerned with money or titles, just shooting matches and pushing my skill level forward.

If someone that manufactures or sells a product that I already use comes along and wants to help me out, that is cool, but I don’t plan on changing my game plan for a little bit of money. I guess that is why I am not and likely never will be a “pro” shooter.

I believe that the serious malfunction you are referring to was a casehead separation and not really related to the gun. This was back when he was still loading his own ammunition. SBR now provides him with new ammunition when needed.

Seiichi

[whitedog]

I am lucky enough to be involved with a program. Although very cool, I really do believe in every company on that jersey. Some I have spent money with, others I have not. It really has no bearing on my shooting, with me not being any where near a top shooter, but it has introduced me to people that are. And that help has been awesome. So, I guess it works both ways in my case.

[PINMAN44]

White dog,

There are people in this sport who truly need help. I see it all the time. From the teacher who hasn't received a COLA (cost of living allowance) to the police officer who has been cut back in pay etc. etc.

It's good that you have such pride in the people who help you. It's great to see people out there with their shirts supporting the people that help them. I believe that anyone who insults this doesn't understand the relationships that some have with the folks that help them.

I'm a firm believer in helping those who truly need it and who will provide their sponsors the best and most professional exposure available.

[Schutzenmeister]

I still remember the best sponsorship shirt I think I ever saw. Some guy from Wyoming, if I recall. On the back it said, simply:

"Sponsored by Wife"

[Chuck D]

Every logo on my shooting jersey is a product or service that has helped me in some form or another (product, gunsmithing, match fees, ect...)

If I don't like the product, I won't use it, support it, or "pitch" it in any form or fashion.

Everything is geared to making the shooting/match experience enjoyable. Not another job.

Bravo Ben...

[whitedog]

Exactly Chuck....this is supposed to be fun. When it becomes a job, or all consuming, well back to cowboy shooting. I understand some peoples views, but most that have a problem with sponsorships have never been involved with it. Nor do they truly have any real facts about it. It's not a gravy train at any level, just some help in some areas.

[Charles Bond]

There is a belief that only the top shooters are able to land sponsors and this is simply not true. Most sponsors are more concerned with how many matches a shooter attends and how well they will represent the sponsor. What sponsors actually want are shooters who attend a bunch of matches and are likely to reach out to other shooters at the match by being a good ambassador. If a sponsor has a new widget and you campaign it and let others try it at matches with a smile on your face, you can do far more for a sponsor than a shooter who wins the match with the sponsor's name on their shirt.

[MarkCO]

There is a belief that only the top shooters are able to land sponsors and this is simply not true. Most sponsors are more concerned with how many matches a shooter attends and how well they will represent the sponsor. What sponsors actually want are shooters who attend a bunch of matches and are likely to reach out to other shooters at the match by being a good ambassador. If a sponsor has a new widget and you campaign it and let others try it at matches with a smile on your face, you can do far more for a sponsor than a shooter who wins the match with the sponsor's name on their shirt.

I agree.

[B.J. Norris]

I even watched a serious malfunction take one of these guys out of the running for a Nationals win in 2010.

So… just to clarify… a guy shot a gun because he got paid to and had it screw him over at the National Championships. That sort of thing is very common.

I'm supposing that I am the party mentioned in Ben's post, since I did have a huge malfunction in the final stages of the 2010 Production Nationals that took me out of the (very close) running for the title. The malfunction in question was a case head separation on a bad piece of fired brass, not anything to do with the firearm itself. Why was I loading fired brass to use at Nationals? Let's just say it was touch economic times that year. Seiichi's right too, I'm getting all my stuff loaded by SBR now, we've got some fairly innovative loads on the board.

[KentG]

Im still holding out to be on "Team White Castle"

[Ben Stoeger]

I even watched a serious malfunction take one of these guys out of the running for a Nationals win in 2010.

So… just to clarify… a guy shot a gun because he got paid to and had it screw him over at the National Championships. That sort of thing is very common.

I'm supposing that I am the party mentioned in Ben's post, since I did have a huge malfunction in the final stages of the 2010 Production Nationals that took me out of the (very close) running for the title. The malfunction in question was a case head separation on a bad piece of fired brass, not anything to do with the firearm itself.

Sorry about that BJ... I thought to reason for the malfunction was the gun.

I stand behind the main thrust of my post however...

[JakeMartens]

I wanted to create a thread about sponsorships. This past week i learned alot about sponsorships. What do you guys think about sponsorships?

So Matt, what did you learn?

Good, bad, evil, needed......

[40S&W]

This may be digressing a bit but here it goes.

For all of you that have businesses (legal) that is registered, incorporated and pay federal income taxes. You company can sponsor you for guns, ammo, travel, shooting clothing, memberships such as (IDPS, USPSA and etc.) match fees, and advertising. This is all legally deductable on your business federal income tax, and in some states where legal on state income tax. So, if you are a business owner & need a sponsor, you might want to have your business sponsor you. With everything the company sponsors you with, you are the legal owner and not the company or corporation.

Edited January 29, 2012 by 40S&W

[waktasz]

You don't say?

[Chills1994]

This may be digressing a bit but here it goes.

For all of you that have businesses (legal) that is registered, incorporated and pays federal income taxe. You company can sponsor you for guns, ammo, travel, shooting clothing, and etc. This is all legally deductable on your business federal income tax, and in some states where legal on state income tax. So, if you are a business owner & need a sponsor, you might want to have your business sponsor you. With everything the company sponsors you with, you are the legal owner and not the company or corporation.

Or if you are thinking about starting a business, do it, then sponsor yourself, and take the match entry fees and etc. off your business taxes.

I think one of the things that nobody has mentioned yet is that typically being sponsored goes hand in hand with instructing. Once you are a GM and sponsored and have a few titles behind you, you can then leverage that into people paying you to instruct them. And chances are you'll get more money from teaching people than from your sponsorship.

Me? I am waiting for a gig with Team Massengil. I mean once some guys see my truck at the match parking lot they go, "That douchebag is here!?" Might as well wear the shirt to go with it.

[Wild Gene]

Ben,

Great post. For that, you attained "Hero Status"!

White Dog, go back to Cowboy Shooting? That is why I got out of it.

Politics are in all the games, and in my opinion, certain levels of sponsorship opens you up to much more of the dark side of people than you could ever imagine. I have seen it happen. I know there are a lot of first class sponsored shooters out there, I respect the ones that use a product because they love it. I feel sorry for them for having to put up with all the politics of the others. As an independent shooter, piss on it, I am what I am.

I am not knocking the program, I just know that being sponsored is not all gravy.

WG