Brainstorm--- How to attract more shooters to Limited?

[Bryan 45]

From the USPSA multi-gun thread, what can match directors or sponsors do to attract more shooters to Limited? As an iron sight shooter, specifically Heavy Metal typically, I feel like we need to do something now, before even more matches cannot recognize the division based on lack of participation.

One idea mentioned that I liked was for sponsors to specify certain prizes for the Ltd table.

I don't like the idea of limiting Tac Optics to only X shooters, because if you force someone to shoot a division they don't like, the shooter won't have any fun, or may even drop out of the match. (Same as if I had to shoot Tac Optics!)

Lets hear the ideas.

[want2race]

If you have a prize table...they will come.

[el pres]

I'm not sure ??

Let's look at what makes TacScp so appealing to new comers ??

It's cooler, more choices, it's got that whole AR15.com, SpecOp, Ninja thing

going on, and the winner is ....... it's so much eaiser...

I dont know, I think it's just going to have to play out like pistols did. Whats

popular now is who won Limited, or even Production, where as five, ten years ago

it was all about Open optics. People will get bored by the status quo and reach out

for something different..

[Neomet]

Free Lasik coupons?

[barney88pdc]

In my opinon the biggest reason for most guys not shooting Limited is the cost. The guns that dominate that Division are the S_I guns. And the initial cost of the gun plus mags, belt, holster, pouches are just too much money for most. I know of 2 shooters who would love to get into the Limited Division but just cannot justify the initial start up cost. Now I am aware that you could go with say a XDm or G35 amongst others. But I think everyone would agree that they are not what the majority of shooters in Limited are running.

Others like the gaming of only having 10 rounds in the mag. It addes another dynamic to the sport.

[el pres]

In my opinon the biggest reason for most guys not shooting Limited is the cost. The guns that dominate that Division are the S_I guns. And the initial cost of the gun plus mags, belt, holster, pouches are just too much money for most. I know of 2 shooters who would love to get into the Limited Division but just cannot justify the initial start up cost. Now I am aware that you could go with say a XDm or G35 amongst others. But I think everyone would agree that they are not what the majority of shooters in Limited are running.

Others like the gaming of only having 10 rounds in the mag. It addes another dynamic to the sport.

Rifle, 3gun !!

[outerlimits]

lasik coupons is right. i would think no more 6" plates at 360 yds might get more people to shoot irons (remember albany, or?).

[barney88pdc]

Open mouth insert foot.

[GentlemanJim]

Open mouth insert foot.

Been there done that

A buck a round for 308 aint helping

Jim

[notasccrmom]

Going along with the Lasik comment... get more young people involved. We have the eyes for it.

[P.E. Kelley]

As an active (perhaps the most active) Heavy Metalist I don't feel it is a match director’s responsibility to try to boost any particular division. Heavy Metal is doing OK, not great, just OK. Designated prizes are already in use. Having won 3 checks totaling $7,000 from the DPMS Tri-Gun and several rifles for division wins over the years (including a Best of the Best JP 308 and the ‘09RM3G) so I don’t think any more incentive is needed.

Iron sights are damn tough to shoot well. Even more so when recoil is added to the mix.

Sorry, I don’t completely buy into the Lasik excuse, as two of the very finest iron sight shooters in the game wear some rather heavy RX prescription eyewear. Yes, some vision problems can not be sufficiently improved to play the iron game and that’s that.

Everything that is tough about shooting a rifle well is intensified when running irons except…………perception of movement. Optical magnification magnifies the target AND your wobble and that can lead to taking instead of breaking shots. Irons suffer little from that problem.

Iron’s take longer to shoot well. Scopes can have a shooter at the mean very quickly. Why work to get to average when you can get there easily?

You want more participation??? Beat the bushes introduce others to HM. Lend them gear and assistance. Shoot more matches even if only Limited divisions is available but man-up and use your HM gear. I won Limited at two Area 1 Multigun’s in that fashion, I will say the victory is sweeter.

I know I am not helping the cause for Iron’s but what is……is.

What I feel we really NEED to do is revamp Limited to allow any fixed ONE POWER sight system! You guys have said it in other threads and I think it is THE IDEAL solution! Same would apply to HM. One HM division using ONE POWER max optics.

Remember one power is what our eyes are when open. As an iron sight shooter I would welcome this revamped division.

Patrick

[George Post]

I will be switching from irons to Tac Optics simply because that's what most people are running. How will I ever ever know if I'm getting better if I'm one of 3 guys shooting limited, or should I join the pack of 70 shooting Tac Optics.

This weekend my club is having it multi-gun match, I think I may shoot irons in Tac Optics division, just to see how I do.

George

[SinistralRifleman]

Allow no magnification red dots

[mike_pinto]

Pat, you are spot on. We had a ton of tac-iron guys at our match this past weekend mainly because most of them are new and shot stock out of the box rifles. The great thing about it is that 1,2, and 3 were all tac-iron. It was a short range match, but seeing the winners shooting irons may help some of the new guys stick with them. I think the problem is, and we know a guy this happened to, is just what you said. He got a great iron gun and right before a match realized that there aren't that many people that can consistantly hit a 10" plate at 300 yards with the irons. He went and bought a scope that day, the next day he was ringing that target.

It is real hard to focus on that front site and let that target get all fuzzy and small when you can put an optic on and see the target clearer and a nice dot that tells you where you are going to hit.

There is no way to attract more shooters without allowing 1x dots or making extreme prize tables for the next couple of years, which isn't going to happen. Most of the tables are correct for the amount of shooters in each division though. I am going to try for a big match next October here in OK and the prize table will be exactly the same value for all 4 recognized IMGA divisions. Maybe that'll get a few! Oh yeah, I will allow 1x optics in Tac-Iron and Saiga's in Tac-Iron and Optic.

I am speaking purely tac-iron/limited as HM has it's own evils.

Just my $.02

mike

Edited October 20, 2009 by mike_pinto

[sono]

We'll alot of people know more than me and thats fine. I like irons division because of the challenge. With practice you can hit a 12inch plate at 300yrds consistantly. If the target can be seen! Thats a whole other ball of wax. Leave the division alone people that like it will run it. As for dots in limited. It kinda takes away the two sight alignment thing.

[bigbrowndog]

OK I'll bite,.....err stir the pot!!!

I personally think the biggest thing driving shooters away from Irons, all Irons HM.Ltd, whatever...........

Is that its much easier to pick up an optically sighted rifle and HIT small targets at long range,

Its easier to SEE targets at long range,

At close range we deal with it no matter what we shoot, so its a wash on close range!!

You can come in the top 80-90% of optic division and receive a very good prize for your effort, not the case in Irons,

We all want to be able to hit what we are shooting at, we all want to feel good when we walk away from a stage, and we all want to feel that we received due recognition for our effort after the match is over!!!!

There are many people that I have personally spoken with that shoot optic division because they will receive ample recognition for their effort after the match.

Everything I've said is in reference to MAJOR matches, not local or smaller regional matches.

I think 1x optics in Iron divisions would be just fine, but it very well could be the final nail in the coffin for the US and Iron shooters, I think doing away with Irons is not an option, because Internationally it is a BIG division, we Americans just do not participate in it like the rest of the World does.

I also think a minimum size of 4 moa targets should be used for long range, lately we have been stretching the distances without increasing the target sizes appropriately.

Next year I will play in optics at some matches just because of the type of target presentations used, and the apparent lack of consideration given to set up. I want to be able to SEE and HIT what I am shooting at.

trapr

[SinistralRifleman]

I agree with Trapr. It is the stage design that drives equipment. It is almost never an advantage in 3 gun to use Iron sights, and it is never a disadvantage to use a magnified optic.

An example of how to show advantages and disadvantages of various equipment; I have stopped using my 3 Gun rifle with CQT at the AZ ACTS matches. Lots of non-conventional firing positions made using an optic with limited eye relief a disadvantage. I now just use an aimpoint because the stages make it an advantage to do so; I would be better off using irons there than something with limited eye relief because at least you can index to some degree when doing weird positions.

See this video for examples:

Edited October 20, 2009 by SinistralRifleman

[DMAC]

I really don't know what to do.

However, I am a LASIK surgeon and I would be happy to trade a LASIK surgery for a 6" limited gun

My practice website

This would boost participation for both of us!

Sorry, this is WAYYYYY off topic.

Edited October 20, 2009 by DMAC

[StealthyBlagga]

I'm a former Tactical Iron/limited shooter. I did pretty well with irons considering my mid-40s eyesight. Bright target backers helped, but I was always able to get all my hits. The reason I moved to Tactical Scope division a few years ago was purely mercenary... matches started breaking out the prize table by division, and I simply made out better (SIGNIFICANTLY better) in Tac Scope than Tac Iron. When I saw another top Tac Iron shooter running his iron sights in Tac Scope division just so he could pick from a better prize table, I realized I am not alone.

If you want to encourage Tac Iron, go back to running a single prize table like we used to before 2007, and I for one would come back. If the 3-gun community does not want to do this, then don;t be surprised if it dies.

I agree that allowing 1x red dots in this division would liven things up a bit, and is worth a try if the prize table fix is off the agenda.

[want2race]

I really don't know what to do.

However, I am a LASIK surgeon and I would be happy to trade a LASIK surgery for a 6" limited gun

My practice website

This would boost participation for both of us!

Sorry, this is WAYYYYY off topic.

Really? You'd be on the loosing end if you had to do my eyes.

One reason that may keep shooters from HM is the rifle choices and the cost. You can't get a very competitive rifle for HM for under a grand. You would think that Limited would be the entry class for 3 gun since you can run a $600 rifle and it will work.

What keeps me away from shooting irons at the big matches is the range and size of targets. Perhaps increasing the target size at those distances (man size targets) would help boost Limited division.

[Bryan 45]

DMAC, nice marketing!

I think there are major hurdles in trying to grow HM division- mostly the requirement for pump shotgun and ammo costs- which is why I didn't focus on that division. But, Limited is the least expensive division to get geared up to shoot, and can be shot with the most basic equipment.

P. Pres mentioned the Mall Ninja aspect, but I haven't seen very many people at the matches I've been to that fit this profile. They can't shoot well enough, even with an optic, to get their hits at just 100. One in particular stands out in my head from the '09 BRM3G- I think DMAC will have the same recollection.

I think Trapr's comments on the desire to do well at a match has a lot to do with lack of participation.

Stealthy- thanks for that info on the way things use to be. My first major match was early this year, so I'm still wet behind the ears.

[Bear1142]

Among the many things you can do to increase interest......

If you want more HM shooters, then come up with more affordable 308 ammo. Current prices of $550+ for a case of ammo makes any real practice with your rifle a very expensive endeavor.

Consider holding a Heavy Metal only match.

Erik

[Mike P]

Allowing 1x optics in limited may cause some heartburn to iron purists, but allowing them MIGHT increase participation in the division thereby increasing the size of the prize table for that division which should result in even more participation up to a point.

Then again allowing them may not do a damn thing. It might even hurt participation but I doubt it.

[benelli2]

Target presentation and prize table are the things that I believe drive this division down, and the prize table is basically done properly at most major matches based on participation, and really we are not talking about increasing overall participation, just in iron division, if you make it easier or at least doable with better targets (shorter distances) then more people will shoot and the prize table will grow, however most of those folks will probably come from the optics crowd already, just trying to end up higher in the list.

jc

[P.E. Kelley]

I AM an iron sight shooter and again I would welcome the opportunity to compete against any FIXED one power optic.

I truly believe this will encourage many to shoot Limited division.

More shooters = bigger prize tables.

This would not only be the ideal entry division but in time could rival Tac Op for entrants.

Participation with Iron sights would increase when competitors see that Irons are at least the equal one power optics.

I do not see a down side. Other than the worry that we here in the USA may not be ready to compete Internationally

at (IPSC) matches in the Standard division. (all of five guys)

Patrick