bigbrowndog Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 JJ the gray blends much easier with shadows that occur during the day than the actual black of the target, so it makes it harder to tell where target ends and shadow begins, i've taken to carrying binoculars so I can verify that what I'm looking at during the walk thru is actually target and not shadow. several times shooters have engaged shadows thinking they were engaging targets. every little bit helps!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Trapr, mi amigo, you are hitting the pipe! Daniel sometimes wins by as much as 15% and usually wins by about 10%. The top iron guys do not nearly have such a disparity in scores as they are all about even. When I beat Kurt, you, Ted, Robbie and Bruce, it is not by much and vice versa. Daniel almost always dishes out an ass kicking in Tac Scope whereas Tac Iron is a real dog fight. So a mixed system WILL Lead to the following hypothectical result at the prize table, particularly in a rifle heavy match where so many of the stages are seperately scored: Daniel Top Iron Guy (who got beat by Daniel in the pistol and shotgun stages) Iron Guy #2 (at 98% of Iron #1) Iron Guy #3 (at 96% of Iron #1) Iron Guy #4 (at 94% of Iron #1) Iron Guy #5 (at 90% of Iron #1) Tac Scope #2 (at 90% of Daniel) And so on and so on. From a mercenary perspective, I don't mind so much as I will often be Iron 1-5 but it will sure suck to be Tac Scope #2 (aka Dave Neth and Rob Romero!). But this system will bring more shooters back to iron sights if that is the ultimate goal. The old days of SOF never had anybody winning by 15% in one of the divisions, at least not that I can remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 UGHHHHH!!!! I say we let it die, hell it isn't breathing now and it seems that no-one really wants to apply the paddles to zap it back to life. The up side is that we would never have to paint anything ever again. Just about everyone who shoots iron has on optic somewhere so it is no great hardship. There have only been a vocal few (myself included) tring to keep it alive, but it just isn't worth it any longer. It will make everything much easier for the match directors, so my advice to all the matches is just don't offer an iron sight division. It is all tactical run what you want up to a single optic. Shoot irons if you wish, but no longer should we try to prop up the corpse, after all we are only disapointing 7-12 people out of the usual feild of 250...or just 2% of the shooters. But do know this..open and heavy metal have the same kind attendance so guys beware you will be next. KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I think guys like Horner should be running with a handicap, pretty much everyone else has a day job in this game. How about a 10-20% deduction from his score !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 After reading Kurt's post, its like I understand how his mind works,ooooooooooooooooooooo creepy!!! Considering the number of excuses that seem to abound for not shooting Irons, and the effort that wants to be put into ensuring a "fair and balanced" (do I have to pay royalties for that?????) match. I can get all the practice I need for IPSC matches on my own!!!! So hell lets just put that stake thru its heart and chop the head off, and call it DONE!!! Think of the money in paint that will be saved!! or time saved by not having to input data for another division, or separating out another prize table!!!, or MD's and stage designers can just do whatever they want and shooters will have to live with it or go find another match to shoot. As I recall FB3G didn't recognize Irons in the first match and they've done nothing but get bigger, LaRue didn't offer an Iron sight class and everyone thought the match was great, I'm sure if we just scrapped the Iron sight class who would notice, as Pat Kelley said, 5 shooters???????????? pfft!!! who cares about 5 shooters. I know I was already planning on shooting a couple of matches with an optic next year, I can just do all of them. Its not like I don't have AR's with optics on them. But then whats next?????????????? Oh wait you can't use a scope if it costs more than 500.00, or only production guns will be allowed no parts guns or semi custom guns. And as Kurt said, Who's next, Open don't think you're immune you guys are as weak as Limited, HM now has HM optic so guess what they're on the way out as I type this!!!! USPSA multigun is just about as dead as Limited????????????? Think about that one for a bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, lets go ahead and bury this horse!!!!I'm mounting a new scope just as soon as I get done with this!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 No Trapr, I have no ulterior motive, I am serious, let it die. It isn't worth the trouble to fight for it any more. When I can finish 6th overall with irons in tac optic and get a prize double the value of the first place iron sight shooter...it is time to declare defeat and move on. Kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I agree Kurt, I'm tired of all the BS, for what??? being called a division shopper, loophole shooter, living in the old days, etc.!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 You guys are funny. Shooting irons is the ultimate skill test and will never die. Maybe won't be compensated with a prize table. But when Kurt M and bigbrowndog and kellyn start shooting TacOp with irons, someone will complain they have an advantage. Gotta love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Don't give up so easy, this thread is only 3 pages. Maybe someone will come up with an idea to keep you iron shooters shooting irons and out of tac optics. Now..... there is some incentive to make it work, to keep Miller, Johnson, Neal, Swanson, and Nowell the heck out of tac optics. Then again, if all the top iron guys migrate to optics (the division anyway) then there may be some top optic shooters leave to shop that division for while, or even to open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sono Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Kurt your right about the prize table thing. BTW thanks for leaven the xd in Ms. I owe you some drinks at Benning. The fine establishment is your choice. Which brings me to my thing. Life aint fair! I will never beat certain people. I enjoy the challenge of irons and time with good people. Sayn we do this for the reward only is liken to deer hunters nowdays say its to feed the family. You can buy a cow for half of what some pay in hunting. Cann't we all just shoot and have a drink in the evening. Laugh about s@#% breaking and enjoy the sport of it. Hell yes I like a nice prize table. But, its not why I go. However, I'm probably just a simple minded dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
springy Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'm probably just a simple minded dude. Roger that!! When I see a match with 148 taco shooters and 6 Heavy Metalists, I always wonder: "There are thousands of M1a's, and probably 3 times as many Fals setting out there. Why in the world aren't they hauling them to the matches?" Don't they know how much fun it is to watch the gallery jump and run for cover when you take on the first targets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Sono, no it isn't just the prise table (but it is a large part of it) it is the constant fight to get visible targets. It is the constant statment by people running the match that "hey you shouda brought an optic so you can see the targets". It is the constant "your hiding in iron sight division" Don't give up so fast?? Have you guys missed the multipul pages of stuff from the last two years about this very same thing?? The sad reality is that optic class killed iron class as soon as iron was broken out of tactical. I worked hard to get where I am, and it is very depressing when I end up winning against some of the best iron shooters in the world and for that hard fought win I get a prize akin to 15th place in tac optics....it just ain't worth it no more. Good thing when J.P. built rifles for me they did an optic rifle as well, looks like it will be warming up in the bull pen. KurtM BTW I was glad you got the Xd, you worked hard to get hthere and I felt that should be rewarded. See ya in Benning for one of my last iron sight matches! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Honestly, when you get down to the brass tacks, it is all about perception and preference. Some say it is the prize table, others don't care about that. Some say it is the distance, others don't care, some say it is the "Horner" factor, others don't care and on and on. This guy goes to Heaven and St. Peter is showing him the streets of gold, the crystal rivers, the mansions and he notices this beat up old box that says "Complaints". He says to St. Peter "I thought everything was perfect in heaven". St. Peter replies "Some people aren't happy unless they are complaining." I'll brainstorm: Each major match has it's own flavor, and the succesful ones are full. There is a lot of "borrowing" going on in terms of stages, rules, backers, etc from the large succesful matches as well. 3 gun, in general is still growing with new matches every year, each trying to be its own "brand". So if you are a limited fan, hold a limited match, get some sponsors and create a new flavor. If you are successful, then people will praise you with plagarism. Shooters get to "vote" with their money and entry and go to the matches that are good (their preference) and compete in the classes they choose. How to attract more NEW shooters, regardless of division/class is something we should all be able to work on in harmony instead of complaining about something we all enjoy. BTW: Firebird rifles, Remington shotguns, Glocks, 1911s, Chevy's, Brunettes, Crown, Sam Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 AHHHH there you go the last post says it all! Now us Iron shooters are complainers....priceless!!! Now People who want targets visible are complainers....wonderful, and you all wonder why after 3 years of this sh%t I quit??? To all you out there, what makes you think I don't know how to use a scope??? Grow new shooters?? WE CAP OUR MATCHES!!! How you going to grow them? By offering a cheap low cost division? NOPE, iron is gone. Now you need a $800 rifle and a $400 optic just to start ontop of the other stuff. J.P. rifles, Benelli shotgun, Triangle 6" fat free pistols and home brew, the rest is just J#$*ing off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 AHHHH there you go the last post says it all! Now us Iron shooters are complainers....priceless!!! Kurt, I did not single out ANY group as complainers at all, it is all in one pot as far as complaining. Read the thread for the complants, then read my post again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Mark, its truly amazing how many optic shooters are posting here telling Irons sight shooters how things should be done to increase participation in a division they don't compete in. Go back and read the last 2 years end of year reports that Kurt and I did, The same things are mentioned there and elsewhere over and over again, then listen to MD's asking how can a match be made better, only when you suggest things you're told"Oh no, we can't do that" then quit asking and pretending that you want to increase participation. I get personally asked by MD's all the time on how things can be improved or what did I think didn't work, and I answer honestly, about half the time I get stopped in mid sentence with "OH no that will never work, or We can't do that" without even trying. the other half listen, they may blow me off, but they listen and they generally look into it further. After shooting in Norway and seeing what is truly able to be accomplished by MD's that want to make it fair for all participants, comparing alot of matches in the US is embarrassing. "some people aren't happy unless they are complaining" spoken like someone that doesn't care about fairness and trying to improve a poor situation. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Trapr, I have read your posts, and listened. I still have your PM when I ASKED you for input. If you assume I am anti-irons, that is wrong. Is there room for improvement...ALWAYS. Do I care about fairness and improving the situation...ALWAYS. To imply otherwise is inaccurate or ignorant. Take a breath man, I am not your enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) The sheep must have not greeted our geologist buddy at the local well site this trip. Good God almighty, you all broke Kurt! I agree, the horse is dead. I guess I am going to have to get a bit faster with the irons to compete in the all-encompassing Tactical Division. Oh well, it's off to the range this weekend to shoot green flash targets against the grass. Edited October 22, 2009 by mike_pinto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Kurt, What do they do in Norway? Seriously, If it is good, and it will help, tell us. Personally, if I could still see, I'd like to shoot Irons. I did, but they eyes just don't have it. Cataracts, not ready for correction and my eyes can only make 20-25 at best, it takes too long to focus. Now, if there was a match that was irons only (think of the SS Nationals) I would still give it a try. I have a couple good iron sighted HM rifles and at least one AR platform with Irons. But, not being able to see a plate at 300 yards is a killer. With good backers, painted targets and decent light, OK, otherwise, I can't hit what isn't there. I think that the old eyes is probably one of the biggest deterrents to more participation in Irons. I can see a Metric at 25 -100 yards, I can see a plate or a popper at 35 even 45 yards. After 100 yards the targets get tough to see. The idea of Yellow Backers is a good one. I could see the targets at Benning last year, although I don't know how I would have done with Irons, it would have been interesting to try of the record. Maybe I'll run a special WWII match next year. M1 and 1911 SS in ,45 only need apply. could be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Mike, you dilitant (Wyoming wise), there have never been sheep up here!! The Antelope are nervous, but no sheep. They haven't broken me, but I am just plain sick of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over....well you get the idea. I will still shoot some irons BUT it will be in Tac-Optic, better to be second to Daniel on the cruise ship than first in the rubber dingy. Jim, what they did in Norway has been well covered in these forums. I agree Yellow backers are the heat....unless the whole target and backer are hiden in the shadows of a tree, then NOTHING works real well. Cataracts suck, thankfully I have yet to be impinged, but my eye sight is 20-110 in my right eye and 20-70 in my left and I have lost all elasticity so my focus doesn't shift very fast from near to far, still I am plugging away. I am lucky in the fact that if I can see them...even vaguely...I can hit them, and with glasses I can see far detail real well....as long as it isn't cammoflaged! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Mark, apparently your post was interpreted as being anti-iron by more than just me. If I was wrong it was just how I read the post. As for taking your complaint comment/analogy as being directed towards iron shooters, again I was not the only one to read it that way. Its one of the things that leads to hard feelings about written comments, you do not know the context or state of mind of the poster. But that is how I read it, I am not ignorant nor was I inaccurate, but just as targets are not seen the same by everyone so are comments interpreted differently. Since I have not attended one of your matches, I do not know if my comments on stage design were taken seriously or not. I do appreciate you asking and hope that the remarks were helpful or at least stimulating. I intend on shooting at least one IPSC match next year so I will still compete with Irons, but there are definitely matches that will be shot with an optic, or as was said earlier I may show up with two sets of gear and decide after looking at stages. it is a sad state of affairs, but I get tired of being treated like a second class competitor. The list of snubs to Iron sight shooters at various matches is quite funny to listen too, until you realize that no one gives a crap. Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Okay... Why exactly wouldn't an "irons only" match work? Trapr is doing the ISPC shotgun thing up in OK for the 2nd year in a row now, despite the fact that its IPSC shotgunning and not USPSA hosing. Seems to be working or there wouldnt be a round two. If you dont like how irons are treated in a match, do something proactive about it. Between the group of you (known and respected irons shooters) put together a match the way you think it ought to be set up. With your backgrounds and history match vendors shouldnt be too great of a problem, and as far as a host range I'll volunteer the one I run (122 acre private club). Give us no-shootin sumbitches a real IPSC rifle expierence, because I can just about guarantee you I will not get the chance to attend the Nordic rifle challenge, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFH Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Where to begin????? The best idea is to do what I have done in the past and not get involved in such discussions, but maybe it’s time to dive in. Increasing participation in TacIron – There are some good suggestions here, but it is not the job of the matches or MDs to try to increase or decrease any participation in any particular division. The folks who shoot 3 gun are adults (at least by age) and choose to shoot whichever class/division they desire. Many factors may figure into their decision, but in the end it’s a personal choice. Throwing the blame around for the decreasing number of Iron shooters is counterproductive. No one forces anyone to use a particular set of equipment. JJ – At the 2009 BRM3G, there were two prize tables, one for Tactical Optics (approximately 80% of the shooters) and one for all the other divisions. This worked because there were 14, 15, and 11 shooters in the other divisions if memory serves me correctly. The prize table values were divided per capita the same way you do. Combining scores of TacIron and TacOptics like XXXX used to do – The reasons NOT to do this as it has been done in the past have been mentioned and are valid reasons. I could go on and on about the effects of that scoring, but will refrain. All targets should be X MOA – Why not just get one size target and set them all at the same distance? We could use 4+ inch targets and never shoot over 100 yards. This would help in many ways. The targets would be the “right” size and wind would have negligible effect. We can’t have the wind blowing for one shooter and not for another – that just isn’t fair – it doesn’t present the exact same circumstance for every shooter. Prize table division – As Denise stated earlier, at many matches the non-TO table have gotten a higher percentage than their participation level indicated. This is not to defend or apologize for any perceived slight. It is just a fact. Prize table distribution – Quite frankly, the sponsors of our matches are VERY generous. The fact that we are able to have prize tables at all should be, and is, appreciated by all. I hope discussions such as this do not turn them off. I am philosophically opposed to random draw and similar things. I also believe the shooters in each class should be rewarded in accordance with the numbers of shooters participating per class in the match. If there is a better, non-random way to handle the prize table, let me know. Target painting – Unless things have changed since I was in college with respect to the human perception of color and contrast, black on yellow provides the best contrast. Granted, I was not in the Design School (Architecture), but I was surrounded by such students for three years, and did pick up a couple of things. BTW, I am the match director who, like JJ, will not paint targets between shooters or squads. I see no valid reason to do so. The targets at the BRM3G will be painted dark gray and will have yellow backers. As has been established in this and other threads, even if this was done folks would be complaining that the time of day, presence of clouds, angle of the sun, etc. 3-gun shooting is by nature subject to different environmental conditions. That is one of the things that makes the sport. I have been on both the good and bad side of the weather. I don’t like it when the wind is up and gusting after it’s been calm for the previous two days and I have to shoot in the wind. But it was great that I got to shoot the long range stages at LaRue on Sunday this year. That’s the breaks. If we have to start worrying about the same “conditions” for every shooter because “it’s not fair”, it’s time to start participating in a different sport. Open to suggestions – Most MDs are open to suggestions and constructive criticisms, but my, or their, refusal to implement someone’s suggestions, does not indicate a lack of concern for fairness. Nor does it indicate that there is indeed a poor situation that needs to be addressed. 3 gun matches have gotten better and better over the years I have been associated with them. The matches have changed. New ideas have been introduced that make the game more challenging and fun – two years ago I never saw shotgun no-shoots used in stages –three or so years ago yellow backers were not used. Have the MDs done some things that they would have changed in hind sight? I have – and I am sure others have also. But overall, the matches are improving. Without exception, all the matches I have attended this year have incorporated new ideas into their stages – the shotgun stages (and no shoots) at FNH, the house and jungle run at DPMS, the blind stage at RM3G, the choices at Johnson (not the first time, but always new), etc. Now I have offended some and entertained others. Probably should have just erased this after I typed it up. We have the best shooting sport, the best people, the best sponsors, and best times of any shooting group I have heard of. Hopefully, all these will remain true. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Best way to increase particiaption in limited might just be to have a match where everyone has to shoot irons. If we can have a revolver only match, a single stack only match, there is no reason you can not have a match were only iron sights are allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) I have re-read all the info I could find on this subject, and not once did I find anyone "complaining" about the "conditions" as being unfair...ie weather and wind. I can find a bit of gripping that the particular shooter had bad conditions when he shot, but not that it was unfair. What I can find a bunch on, is targets that can't be seen without the aide of optics, or targets that were not visible durring certain parts of the day. The most frequent answer I get as to why people have gotten out of shooting irons is that they can't see the target. I have never had anyone mention that they can't shoot irons in bad weather, it is always I CAN'T SEE THE TARGET. Backers go a long way in helping this, but if they are placed under a tree where it gets no sunlight in the morning or late afternoon it doesn't matter what color you use as it is not getting enough light to make the backer visible, nor the target. And before you all get to patting yourselves on the back for "coming up" with backers, the first time I saw them used was back in 1997 at a couple of stages at the old SOF. There is nothing new under the sun! Reguarding target size, the rifles we use (and I use the term rifle loosely as mostly they are carbines) were designed with the intent of engaging a "man-sized" target out to 450 M or about 500 yards.... a 12X30 inch target. I notice that this is quite a bit bigger than what we shoot at right now. As the range extends and we keep the targets small we are now asking our rifles to fill more of a precision rifle roll, than of an action rifle roll, which also drives the use of optics. Is the futur of 3-gun to be "Action/sniper rifle"? I agree that no one is forced into using a certain set of equipment, but match design certainly can effect what that equipment is. If a match is known for steel set very heavy one might show up with a lot of high brass # 6 shot and 180 power factor pistol ammo, if a match is known for real long range hard to see targets, show up with an optic....etc. To say that matches don't drive equipment choice is like saying heavy snow fall doesn't drive the use of chains or 4 wheel drive while traveling. I agree that the job of a match director isn't to drive any division, but I would say that the match director 's job is to make sure that the courses of fire are able to be completed safely by 70% of the shooters in the alloted time and that the targets are visible, and the props, steel, and target systems are safe and working. KurtM Edited October 22, 2009 by kurtm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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