Brainstorm--- How to attract more shooters to Limited?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Irons only match.

If you build it they will come.

+1

I wouldn't miss a big match just because I couldn't use a scope. Especially if it was close to home. Maybe Kurt, Mike, Trapr, Curly and the guys need to make the 2009 regional match at OKC Gun club irons only?

Edited October 26, 2009 by jtischauser

[spd522]

Irons only match.

If you build it they will come.

+2

Craig

[bigbrowndog]

Mikey could call it the, Primitive rifle sights match, optics need not apply!!!

Trapr

[Bryan 45]

And irons only match would be a lot of fun, but the problem (as I see it) is the future of Limited division. Every match it seems the numbers in Ltd are getting smaller and smaller. An irons only match would probably have great participation, but I don't think it would encourage shooters to regularly shoot Ltd.

[bigbrowndog]

Kurt, Smokey Bear and I already have an optics rifle match figured out, but I don't think it will promote optics use either.

Trapr

[mike_pinto]

I will be there Trapr, as long as I can shoot my iron in your optic only match!

[bigbrowndog]

As long as you have an optic or glass on your rifle.

trapr

[ken hebert]

Irons only match.

If you build it they will come.

+2

Craig

So easy a caveman could do it?

[Smoky Bear]

As long as you have an optic or glass on your rifle.

trapr

Would a glass eye be ok?

[cksh8me]

+1 to Kurt the Limited Division in 3 gun has been dead for some time. Now people are accepting it.

Edited October 27, 2009 by cksh8me

[Charles Bond]

While I agree that a irons only match will insure that the shooters attending will all shoot irons, look at it from the perspective of the match director or organizer. If you allow scopes you know you will fill and do so quickly. If you have irons only, maybe you will fill and maybe not and even if you fill it will be more slowly. It is going to take a very dedicated irons shooter to ramrod an irons only match and be prepared to front the funds to pull it off.

But a larger question is why should any one division be promoted over another? What is the inherient value from the sport perspective of pushing one division over another? Please note that I am well aware of the practical perspective but am rather talking about the sport or retail perspective. If you stock a grocery store with apples and oranges and grapes and at the end of a week you have sold out of the apples and oranges but only sold 2 bunches of grapes and the rest of them have now rotted, how many pounds of grapes are you going to stock upon calling in the next order?

[cksh8me]

Charles I brought something similar to this up a few years ago, I'm just now getting over the blisters from the flames.

[Charles Bond]

And I understand the blisters that one receives from this forum and others but one has to remember that this fourm offers a method for members to talk about shooting. Matches offers our members an outlet to shoot. When the energy on this fotum about an issue does not match the entries at matchess, we have to seriously question whether posts on forums reflect the opinions of our general shooting population. How else does one explain the 113 posts here on this issue vs the TWO entries in the USPSA Muligun Nationals?

[Bryan 45]

But a larger question is why should any one division be promoted over another? What is the inherient value from the sport perspective of pushing one division over another? Please note that I am well aware of the practical perspective but am rather talking about the sport or retail perspective. If you stock a grocery store with apples and oranges and grapes and at the end of a week you have sold out of the apples and oranges but only sold 2 bunches of grapes and the rest of them have now rotted, how many pounds of grapes are you going to stock upon calling in the next order?

The difference is I LIKE GRAPES. And I want to do what I can to keep the supermarket carrying grapes. Call me selfish.

As Patrick and Andy pointed out, I had a bad choice of words in the original question by asking what MDs can do for Ltd. As shooters of Ltd, it's our burden to bear if we want to revive the division. After all, we are the only ones who have anything to lose if Ltd fades away.

[Mike P]

While I agree that a irons only match will insure that the shooters attending will all shoot irons, look at it from the perspective of the match director or organizer. If you allow scopes you know you will fill and do so quickly. If you have irons only, maybe you will fill and maybe not and even if you fill it will be more slowly. It is going to take a very dedicated irons shooter to ramrod an irons only match and be prepared to front the funds to pull it off.

But a larger question is why should any one division be promoted over another? What is the inherient value from the sport perspective of pushing one division over another? Please note that I am well aware of the practical perspective but am rather talking about the sport or retail perspective. If you stock a grocery store with apples and oranges and grapes and at the end of a week you have sold out of the apples and oranges but only sold 2 bunches of grapes and the rest of them have now rotted, how many pounds of grapes are you going to stock upon calling in the next order?

As far as supporting one division over the other with regard to the "sport" goes, it seems from other posts the U.S. is the only place that irons are dying. From the standpoint of being a part of a larger international organization where these divisions are recognized and have healthy participation a little effort to garner more participation wouldn't be too far out of line.

Also, any retailer worth his salt would have discounted and moved the grapes before they rotted, and would restock grapes so he could keep the people who bought 2 pounds coming back for other stuff.

A carbine match with irons only would be at its worst, a welcome distraction, I also think it would be well recieved at least locally.

[CocoBolo]

Ok, here is my opinion. 3-Gun is expensive most of its shooters are 40+ and most have some vision issues. My eye sight prevents shooting an AR with Irons but I have shot a Marlin Camp 9 with Irons and won that division (iron) in a two gun match. With the AR I can't compete with Irons with folks that have good eye sight.

In 3-Gun, I always say if I can see it I can hit it with 1x optic. Problem is that in the long range stages there is always one set that I can't see. At one 200 yards were invisible but I hit the 300 yard. I have now gone to a 1x-3x in the hope of seeing something.

While many know they can't win the match they still shoot and I think that Combined Results are the Evil that makes us want to finish better and those guys running optics are finishing better. There may be exceptions but at most matches that is the case. How many times is the Iron shooter HOA? Isn't winning something we all want to do? Maybe no combined results and recognize each Division Equally.

If they ran a stock car race with Street Stocks, Limited, and Latemodel Cars in the same race and placed them as they finished would a Street Stock racer be happy? They would be putting Latemodels on the trailer, aka knocking them into the wall to get into the money.

[cksh8me]

Pretty good analogy. Here's another the 500 class used to be the premier class in MX. When sales slowed for the 500's and the riders signed up for the 250 and 125 classes the 500 class died. Now you've got more top riders competing against each other. Better for the fans maybe, better for the manufactures, better for the riders that want to make a couple of bucks, and easier for the promoters.

The few guys that wanted to race the 500's are disappointed, the few guys (2 at the 3 gun Nationals) are going to be disappointed.

The promoters don't have to hear about iron guys not being able to see the targets, they don't have to paint, score another class, or divide up a prize table.

Edited October 27, 2009 by cksh8me

[Stlhead]

When limited dies, so does heavy metal. I like heavy metal, and wish more people shot it. But if heavy metal is gone I will shoot open. Heavy metal is the only place in 3 gun for a revolver shooter, it will be sad if it goes. That being said I don't think that limited or heavy metal will actually go.

Match directors are human, and humans tend to take the path of least resistance. As long as people sign up under limited, and heavy metal they will allow them a separate division, and score them. It is harder to get rid of a division than it is to start a new one. They just won't paint, or worry about backers or target color or shadows. When iron shooters ask about things of that nature they will get the same response, about it being the same for all iron shooters, and not enough time to paint, and if you don't like it buy a scope. The people that shoot irons now will most likely continue to do so, a few optic shooters will come over to compete in a thinner field, or try it as a novelty. And the status quo will continue. And this thread will stretch to infinity.

If you want to make a difference, volunteer to be an RO or match director and make sure your targets are painted and have good contrast. If people go to iron friendly matches they will be more likely to try shooting irons. If the iron sight shooters are the ones that run the matches, we will have matches that are better for iron sights and more iron sighted participants will follow. It may take time, but it can be done. Most matches need all the help they can get, and if you help you will get far more say in how the match goes down.

Back to lurking for me.....

[ken hebert]

While I agree that a irons only match will insure that the shooters attending will all shoot irons, look at it from the perspective of the match director or organizer. If you allow scopes you know you will fill and do so quickly. If you have irons only, maybe you will fill and maybe not and even if you fill it will be more slowly. It is going to take a very dedicated irons shooter to ramrod an irons only match and be prepared to front the funds to pull it off.

But a larger question is why should any one division be promoted over another? What is the inherient value from the sport perspective of pushing one division over another? Please note that I am well aware of the practical perspective but am rather talking about the sport or retail perspective. If you stock a grocery store with apples and oranges and grapes and at the end of a week you have sold out of the apples and oranges but only sold 2 bunches of grapes and the rest of them have now rotted, how many pounds of grapes are you going to stock upon calling in the next order?

Tac and open are well supported every where. What is being discussed here is a revival of irons via a match format. If you have the option to use optic over iron, then duh, I'm gonna choose optics. Its easier. But... If its fgonna be a kick-ass match and the only way to shoot it is with an irons gun then I'm bringing my irons gun. Look at it another way: It'd be a hoot to shoot an IDPA match with your open gun, but thats not what they allow now is it? So you show up with your G34 or a Springfield SS and rock and roll. Same here. If you dont give them the option to shoot optics but they still wanna play, then they show up and run their irons gun and, whoops---SUPRISE! Do better than they thought, still have a good time, and help revitalize the division.

Then maybe Kert, trappir, and the rest of 'em would quit whining!!!

[Jesse Tischauser]

While I agree that a irons only match will insure that the shooters attending will all shoot irons, look at it from the perspective of the match director or organizer. If you allow scopes you know you will fill and do so quickly. If you have irons only, maybe you will fill and maybe not and even if you fill it will be more slowly. It is going to take a very dedicated irons shooter to ramrod an irons only match and be prepared to front the funds to pull it off.

But a larger question is why should any one division be promoted over another? What is the inherient value from the sport perspective of pushing one division over another? Please note that I am well aware of the practical perspective but am rather talking about the sport or retail perspective. If you stock a grocery store with apples and oranges and grapes and at the end of a week you have sold out of the apples and oranges but only sold 2 bunches of grapes and the rest of them have now rotted, how many pounds of grapes are you going to stock upon calling in the next order?

Tac and open are well supported every where. What is being discussed here is a revival of irons via a match format. If you have the option to use optic over iron, then duh, I'm gonna choose optics. Its easier. But... If its fgonna be a kick-ass match and the only way to shoot it is with an irons gun then I'm bringing my irons gun. Look at it another way: It'd be a hoot to shoot an IDPA match with your open gun, but thats not what they allow now is it? So you show up with your G34 or a Springfield SS and rock and roll. Same here. If you dont give them the option to shoot optics but they still wanna play, then they show up and run their irons gun and, whoops---SUPRISE! Do better than they thought, still have a good time, and help revitalize the division.

Then maybe Kert, trappir, and the rest of 'em would quit whining!!!

So are you saying shooting irons is like shooting IDPA? Totally kidding!

[Charles Bond]

How about a match where you had to bring two rifles, one iron and one optic and shoot both. Wanna make it really interesting, stage both rilfes and roll a dice at the buzzer. Even numbered shooters grap the optic and odd numbered results mean you use the iron sights.

[ken hebert]

Thats nasty!

I like it!!

[Charles Bond]

Thats nasty!

I like it!!

Nasty would be like an old fashioned turkey shoot where you can use any rifle on the table except your own. Talk about being careful of whom you were squadded with..................

[DarthMuffin]

I like the 4MAO target size idea. Another idea may be to open up Heavy Metal to any major pistol caliber. I'd shoot it if I didn't have to have a 1911. Keep it to steel frames if you want.

However, what I'd really like to see is more of a reward for major power factor. I realize that nobody wants to walk out and paste targets at 300 meters, but there has to be a way to figure something out. Maybe make a metal plate with an inner "A" zone and and outer "C" zone. Hit the A zone and both plates fall, hit the C zone and just the C falls. Or maybe calibrate the C zone plate only to fall to major PF.

[Bryan 45]

DM, there are some advantages to shooting major already on long steel. Even with a bad hit, the RO has no doubt it's a hit. And I've cleared the Texas Star w/ only 4 shots more than once.