SinistralRifleman Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 ....By offering a cheap low cost division? NOPE, iron is gone. Now you need a $800 rifle and a $400 optic just to start ontop of the other stuff..... The most popular selling ARs are carbines with short sight radius that most people here would regard as non-competitive. We sell something like 50 M4 handguards for every one rifle length handguard if that gives you any idea of what type of guns are selling. As it is, the average AR owner thinks he doesn't have the right equipment for 3 gun. I deal with this constantly trying to get new people out to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I don't understand why match directors would object to fresh paint during a match. How about I just take it upon myself to paint the targets a couple of shooters before me? Would match directors object to that? I'll bring my own quad and paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 The most popular selling ARs are carbines with short sight radius that most people here would regard as non-competitive. We sell something like 50 M4 handguards for every one rifle length handguard if that gives you any idea of what type of guns are selling.As it is, the average AR owner thinks he doesn't have the right equipment for 3 gun. I deal with this constantly trying to get new people out to shoot. Good point, one can be fairly competitive in Tac Scope with an M4 and any optic that can hold a zero. Try shooting an stock iron sighted M4 against a full on Limited/Standard/Tac Iron rifle and you are going to get an ass whipping. I too thought Kurt was broken down there for a moment but he's come back swinging, must have caught an antelope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike.45 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 (edited) J.P. rifles, Benelli shotgun, Triangle 6" fat free pistols and home brew, the rest is just J#$*ing off! cheers.gif Hell yeah !! ...whats a Fat Free.... is that similar to a .40 Lite ? Edited October 22, 2009 by mike.45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 To tell you all the truth, I am still going to shoot irons in hopes to be invited to go over the pond to represent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Good point, one can be fairly competitive in Tac Scope with an M4 and any optic that can hold a zero. Try shooting an stock iron sighted M4 against a full on Limited/Standard/Tac Iron rifle and you are going to get an ass whipping. Maybe I should shoot some matches with the 14.5" carbine I ran over with the jeep to prove that point LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I'm thinking that Kurt and Trapr and the expertise and experience they bring to the game....maybe its time someone put together a real governed muligun sanctioning body like USPSA has done. It would take alot of blood,sweat,tears and metric tons of homebrew but it may be worth considering. Then Kurt could become President and use income from the membership to travel the country and shoot matches on the memberships dime like that other President. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Before that let's make him the moderator of the 3 gun forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 And keeper of the Antelope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 You can't "make me" be a moderator. I can't be the keeper of Antelope as I am old and slow, but Pinto is young and fast. Mike you well know what a fat free is....it,s like a Cleavland steamer. At no time did I back down from the "let it die" statement, I just wanted to point out that people weren't whining about the weather and that match set up and lay out DOES in fact drive equipment. KurtM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRider Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I shoot irons, and will keep shooting them even if I have to be in the tactical class/division. I go to the matches that I can to shoot the guns that I like, have fun with friends, and meet new people (getting something decent off of the prize table is just gravy, and in my limited match experience, rifle and multigun prize tables are far better than pistol prize tables). I like the challenge of shooting irons. I don't know if bigger targets and contrasting backers would draw more people to irons, but they can't hurt and I am all for them. I like the idea that they are using for Benning this year about having all class/division winners go into a shootoff with pickup guns. That might draw a few more shooters to our side. Who knows, just the talk of Kurt, Trapr, and some of the other extremely talented iron shooters getting out of the class/division might be enough for some to jump over to irons thinking they might get an easy trophy. Hurley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Anyone want to throw down with carbine sight radius guns in tac iron at SMM3G 2010? If so, I'm in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 I think more people would shoot Limited if it was called Tactical Iron;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Anyone want to throw down with carbine sight radius guns in tac iron at SMM3G 2010? If so, I'm in. Hmmmm , are you talking Irons Trooper or Irons Limited ?? Clamp on front sight at the comp of a 16" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 What is yet unsaid here is that as iron sight shooters move over to other divisions they do not leave enough people shooting irons to constitute a division or barely so. A guy shooting irons who ends up at a couple of matches in a row where there are not enough shooters to even reocognize the division will then jump over to another division and not turn back. As participation drops under 5 or 10% of all shooters, the division will simply quietly fade away. I do not shoot irons but did once and enjoyed it. Having various divisions makes matches more appealing. But matches have a business component and we simply can not use the well subscribed divisions to prop up a division where participation is on the verge of death. So it comes back to what can or should we do to draw shooters back to limited absent punishing other divisions in some form or fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) I shoot irons most of the time. I have a couple of 20" guns that are extremely accurate if I do my part. I have even shot my 11.5" SBR with irons at a few matches although none of the rifle targets were long range. I agree that target type, color, and ambient lighting can make or break iron shooting. And some of it just needs to be addressed by the course designer before the match. It's not that difficult. Not everyone will get a target in full sun to shoot at but as mentioned, they shouldn't be tucked away back in the shadow either. And size needs to be realistic for the range involved. You can't shoot what you can't see. I am used to marginal prize tables for the class and agree it should be based on participation. I still enjoy shooting irons. But if it ends up back as a heads up against those with optics, I will probably switch to a scope. It isn't a big deal on close targets but once the range increases, irons slow me down too much over a scope. I would be all for an "irons only" match. Craig Edited October 23, 2009 by spd522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Charles its the plethora of divisions that HAS killed Irons. As of right now every original iron division has been morphed into an optic option, thus removing shooters from the original irons division. And as Kurt said, all the matches are capped, and if you recognize ALL the divisions where are you going to get MORE shooters from,..................................... the optic divisions???????????????? trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Charles its the plethora of divisions that HAS killed Irons. As of right now every original iron division has been morphed into an optic option, thus removing shooters from the original irons division. trapr I think HM Optics is a good example of what Trapr is talking about. It ain't HM if you have an optic on your .308! I appreciate that match directors give shooters what they want, whether it's a division tailored toward a specific type of equipment or a specific type of courses of fire, but imagine how much more simple the world would be if we just had Open and Limited. (At least it would be seem that way from someone who shoots limited!) If that's the only option that would have any affect of getting more people into Limited, then I'm starting to agree w/ Kurt & Trapr and saying "let it die." No need to piss off 70% of the shooters (those shooting optics) to save a divison that typically has only 12% of total participation. After all, they'll still accept me and my iron sights in TO. Edited October 23, 2009 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Bryan, in the "old" days it was just open and limited, and guess what................................there were lots of limited shooters. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Bryan, in the "old" days it was just open and limited, and guess what................................there were lots of limited shooters.trapr Slight thread drift, but there is a 2 gun match sort of like that in the "new days". I'm told it is held periodically at Range 37 and is truly "run what you brung". One class, open. Maybe what has gone around is coming around again. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SinistralRifleman Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Anyone want to throw down with carbine sight radius guns in tac iron at SMM3G 2010? If so, I'm in. .... Clamp on front sight at the comp of a 16" Note I said carbine sight radius, no extra sights on the end of the barrel unless you have an 11.5" gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I'm thinking that Kurt and Trapr and the expertise and experience they bring to the game....maybe its time someone put together a real governed muligun sanctioning body like USPSA has done. It would take alot of blood,sweat,tears and metric tons of homebrew but it may be worth considering. Then Kurt could become President and use income from the membership to travel the country and shoot matches on the memberships dime like that other President. +1 I think the best way to get more tac iron shooters is from new shooters. I just started 3 gun this summer and I planned to shoot tac iron because it costs less (and it is the 2nd coolest class right behind HM). I had already spent a bunch of money on a used Benelli M1, Glolck 34, and a Firebird/DPMS rifle so I really didn't want to drop another $300-1000 on a scope. However, I couldn't hit but about 50% of the time at 300 yds on an IPSC target. I attributed the innaccuracy to my limited vision and practice time. So instead of practicing like the best would do, I fixed the vision portion of the problem and sold out buying the best scope I could find 2 days before my match. Back on point, most new shooters aren't going to come to their first match with a scope that is typical in this sport. They will typically show up with irons or maybe a red dot if they are allowed too. Case in point, our first OKC gun club match this month had 35+ shooters with 24 shooting irons! We had a lot of new and young shooters that aren't ready for the additional investment of a 1-4X scope. If we had an organization dedicated to 3 gun (US3SA) with rules, a governing body, and MARKETING just think of all the possible tac iron shooters we could be reeling in off the streets. Now I don't think we are going to get a bunch of new shooters shooting the major matches because they are expensive and scattered around the country. We need the US3SA organization to help push the local gun clubs to stop wasting so much time on SASS and start shooting real 3 gun matches. Another added benefit of creating the US3SA and new shooters is all of the additional sponsors and prizes from the big firearms manufacturers that would follow. Take a look at USPSA production class. It is becoming huge and is starting to bring in a lot of prizes and support. Now keeping the new shooters in irons is another thing all together. I think the targets need to be larger or closer and properly marked with paint or a backdrop that makes them visible. Instead of one or two challenging 400 or 500 yd targets that are tought wiht a scope and impossible for most shooters with irosn use five to six 200-250 yd targets that everyone can see. Challenge shooters with speed on multiple targets that are moderately difficult shots rather that challenging shooter's vision. The sniping side of the rifle is definately a skill but it is not a true use of a 223 type rifle in my opinion. If you just have to be the cool match in the mountains or woods that wants to make everyone shoot farther than other big mathes then give bonus points for the longer targets but make the risk high on those targets and the reward moderate so that only the best shooters go after them whether they are shooting an optic or irons. I would move back to irons if I thought the targets would be visible to me and I could hit something. in the future at our local match with most shots under 150 yds I will definately give irons a try as long as Kurt is working that month. Lastly, in my thoughts on bringing new shooters and their iron sighted rifles into the sport the US3SA could make the irons/heavy metal class something similar to USPSA production class. Most new USPSA shooters shoot production and a lot of good shooters are switching to production because they already have the guns for home defense or plinking, it is fun , and the sponsorships and prize tables are growning. For 3 gun matches you could award more points or remove time from scores for shooting major power factor, pump shotguns, limited magazine capacity, or whatever is restrictions you might add. Just imagine all those guys with home defense 870 shotguns, an M4, and a Glock 17 being able to use their guns for something fun like the matches we shoot. Kurt, Trapr, Robbie, Tate and the rest of the top irons shooters are still going to win any class without glass but their prize table will be bigger because it will be full of people. That's the perspective of a green 3 gunner so take it for what its worth. I really hope some of that made sense because it took a long time to type with two fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bore Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I have been debating on how to comment on this post and have decided to just throw my .02 in. Some may not like it but what the hell. I just finished looking at the 3 gun nat. scores and noticed only 2 limited shooters......."2"......WTF. If I had the vacation time it would have been 3. Maybe the limited division should die. But wait that would mean I would have to shoot in scoped tactical and I can shoot a scope a lot faster than irons and I don't even come close to sucking hind tit with irons. This would also mean that some of you scoped guys would probabaly have to take a step or more down if we irons shooters came into your division. I have noticed there are some pretty good rifleman in the irons division and we would have to place somewhere??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 I like your attitude! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Irons only match. If you build it they will come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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