Open / L-10 Nats Banter

[Turtle]

I had a great time catching up with old friends and meeting some new ones. The shooting challenges were fun, not the very best I've seen, but still fun. As for the lack of running and gunning (which I too was disappointed by), I've also heard many people complain about those type of stages as feats of physical ability and not shooting ability. I think the shooting tests in this match were pretty solid and would like to thank everyone who took the time and energy to design and set-up the stages. If you weren't happy with the stages (not that there's anything wrong with that) then maybe you could design one for next years match and hopefully it will be used (seriously, no sarcasm intended).

The shooting in the mud and rain is no big deal and as some people stated earlier, it's just another challenge to overcome (another distraction from the shooting) and in some respects that makes it more fun. It's everything else besides shooting that makes it miserable; The fact that the RO's have to walk up nose to nose with the target to score it thru the bag, taping targets in the pouring rain, all your gear getting soaked, dropping mags in deep smelly mud, the (some times long) delays due to rain induced reshoots, shooting in the dark and being blided by your muzzle blast, etc., etc.. As shred so aptly put it, many of us can pinpoint the few bad things that happened that knocked us down in place and kept us from reaching our goal (man how I wanted to finish top 20!!!).

All in all it was a good experience and I'm glad I went. Hopefully all the controllable issues that people have brought up will be addressed and hopefully we'll have some better weather next time so as to increase the overall fun factor. If anyone from USPSA and USSA is listening, thank you for all the hard work you put in to make a match of this caliber happen! Congrats to the winners, nicely done.

[JakeMartens]

I bet 99% of us throw the stuff away we get in the sponsor bag when we register for the match too, but I don't see anyone screaming "foul" over that. By that logic, isn't that disrespecting our match sponsors?

and the poor bastard who put all that stuff in the bag!!!!

(having been the poor bastard several times )

[carinab]

I find most people who's goal is to WIN don't keep or display plaques where they lost. (Losing = not 1st place). I do it in very select occasions. For example, I have a plaque next to my door from the match I lost by about .1 match points - to remind me that every point counts. I don't keep the majority and I know quite a lot of shooters who feel the same way.

Other than that, frankly, it's no ones business what a competitor does with the plaque they were given. I don't see how it's disrespectful at all - it isn't insulting the match, staff, or competition. It is solely based as a representation of your performance. I bet 99% of us throw the stuff away we get in the sponsor bag when we register for the match too, but I don't see anyone screaming "foul" over that. By that logic, isn't that disrespecting our match sponsors?

And just to put another slant on it... Maybe they weren't thrown away at all...Maybe someone left their stuff in the awards room and went to the prize area - intending to return for their plaque... Maybe it was picked up by the hotel staff before they returned... I put mine down once or twice while talking and grazing at the snacks. I could have forgotten it had my husband not picked it up for me.

It amazes me how quickly evil intent is assigned to what most of the time is innocent action.

[Turtle]

I find most people who's goal is to WIN don't keep or display plaques where they lost. (Losing = not 1st place). I do it in very select occasions. For example, I have a plaque next to my door from the match I lost by about .1 match points - to remind me that every point counts. I don't keep the majority and I know quite a lot of shooters who feel the same way.

Other than that, frankly, it's no ones business what a competitor does with the plaque they were given. I don't see how it's disrespectful at all - it isn't insulting the match, staff, or competition. It is solely based as a representation of your performance. I bet 99% of us throw the stuff away we get in the sponsor bag when we register for the match too, but I don't see anyone screaming "foul" over that. By that logic, isn't that disrespecting our match sponsors?

I think many of us feel the same way Jake, but I also think that it was the way that it was done that was the issue. If the parking lot was littered with the registration brochures then that would be a problem, wouldn't it? But discretely putting them in your hotel room waste basket is different.

And just to put another slant on it... Maybe they weren't thrown away at all...Maybe someone left their stuff in the awards room and went to the prize area - intending to return for their plaque... Maybe it was picked up by the hotel staff before they returned... I put mine down once or twice while talking and grazing at the snacks. I could have forgotten it had my husband not picked it up for me.

It amazes me how quickly evil intent is assigned to what most of the time is innocent action.

Very true, we should not assume malice, but it's amazing how often we do.

Edited September 15, 2008 by Turtle

[ysued]

I think many of us feel the same way Jake, but I also think that it was the way that it was done that was the issue. If the parking lot was littered with the registration brochures then that would be a problem, wouldn't it? But discretely putting them in your hotel room waste basket is different.

That is what I do!!

I take my Bag to the Hotel room, filter through the stuff i wan to keep and toss the rest!

I know this is your Plaque and you can do with it as you wish, it's yours to do so. But...... I guess that I was taught differently when I was growing up!! I got my share of ugly shirts back then, I said thanks and exchanged them. I have trphies that are nothing but meaningless, but they bring back great memories of the places I got them from!! It's not a right vs wrong thing, I guess I'm sensitive about that!!

Y

[ysued]

And just to put another slant on it... Maybe they weren't thrown away at all...Maybe someone left their stuff in the awards room and went to the prize area - intending to return for their plaque... Maybe it was picked up by the hotel staff before they returned... I put mine down once or twice while talking and grazing at the snacks. I could have forgotten it had my husband not picked it up for me.

It amazes me how quickly evil intent is assigned to what most of the time is innocent action.

I agree with you, maybe someone left them there to go to the Prize table and they were picked up by the staff!! It happens!!

Y

[chendersby]

Kudos to squad 6 for putting up with me for three whole days. Shooting with Chris, Ralph, Brad and Joe, et al was the single most enjoyable aspect of the match for me.

I enjoyed our dinner at Outback. We drove there from the match hotel, it was less than 70 yards away across the carpark; It was raining and we didn't want to get wet.

You were actually pretty easy to put up with. We will have to do it again.

[Turtle]

I agree Yamil. By the way, I love the avatar, awesome picture!

[XRe]

Sure you could have, and you would have been correct to do so.

If you read 2.2.1.1, in soft surface conditions, there is no required fault line height - only a recommended one. The rule is another that needs to go on the list to be rewritten...

[prh]

I just want to thank all the competitors that gave the staff

a standing ovation at the Saturday awards ceremony. It

was greatly appreciated.

See you next year!

prh

[chendersby]

Does the contract USPSA has with USSA stipulate the month the match ahs to be shot? Would it be feasible to go back and do so in another month that at least has a chance to be drier?

At the moment there is no long term contract with USSA.

[George Jones]

I worked the LPR match (Stages 8 & 9). I shot the Open match. I also worked last year's Mud Bowl. My perspective comes from that mix of experience at USSA as concerns the range conditions.

LPR - No real range problems until we got a little rain on Monday night. As soon as I stepped on the range surface on Sunday morning, the mud came oozing through the sod. The more you stepped, the more mud came up. My bay was not the worst by any means.

Open/L-10 - My squad shot the first morning in mist/rain until we got to Stage 11. Most of us shot that in hard rain. We were laughing and joking about the rain. Made the best of it. It's been my experience that most shooters don't complain all that much about things that can't be helped (rain, heat, etc). They do tend to complain about "shortages" (not enough shade, etc).

The second day was sunny and clear. Perfect conditions. The mud on the stages was unbearable. I did not see a smile anywhere on the range that day. There was no joy in Mudville. We shot eight stages that day - five of them in major mud. Some of you may feel different but I'm not getting any younger. Hauling five pounds of mud on each foot all day was not fun. I ran out of gas and it carried over to the next day when we shot our last four stages.

I worked the "easy match" on a relatively decent bay. I have the utmost respect for the staff who worked both matches in deplorable conditions. Stage 11 was probably the worst, with 12-15 close behind. Some stage crews worked 12 to 14 hours a day. Those guys and gals deserve our collective thanks.

As for me, as I said I'm not getting any younger. Working one then shooting the next is not the brightest idea I've ever had (especially after saying I wouldn't ever do it again after 2001 ). I don't think I can bring myself to go there again if these ground conditions are still likely to happen.

Let's hope a sound solution is found. One in which we can have some confidence.

[kimel]

Wow...what a mess.

L/P/R was great and we had only minimal issues with the footing. O/L10 was a horse of different color though. Half way through Thursday I put out the call to Mr. Fix-it to find me a shovel and rake. Between squads we would pull all the mud and chips out of the shooting area (along with all the water we could) and then fill it back in with new chips. This really helped stabilize things but what worked for us may not have worked for others. We tried real hard to keep the fault lines above the mess but it was just about impossible without taking a couple minutes to clean things between each shooter.

I want to thank everyone that came through my stage (10) during the Mudbowl O/L10 for their help in moving things along as quickly as they could. I only had to talk to one squad about helping reset. As usual, the shooters proved that shooters are some of the best people on the planet. They kept us laughing through the rain and mud and that really made the time more enjoyable.

I also want to thank my RO crew, Jim and Dave, for busting their butts without so much as a single complaint. I was blessed once again to have a great crew. Thanks guys!

My hat also goes off to the USSA staff who busted their butts hauling water, chips, and everything else. And to our Mr. Fix-Its Tom and Dave; you guys are awesome!

My crew and I ran what I later heard was an unofficial nationals record 17 2/3 squads on Friday. Thanks to lucky squad 13 for coming over and busting ass in the failing light to get everyone through as fast as possible as our "martini squad". We all had a very long day and we still turned shooters at about 2 minutes per on that last squad.

As for "just putting up no shoots" for O/L10. I don't know about any of the other stages but that was about all I was willing to do given that I figured we would be in bags the whole match. Doing anything more imaginative makes it rough to bag and unbag all the time. I did move some of the target positions to make it more challenging and to give the L10 folks a better reload opportunity. Had I thought we were going to have better weather I would have gotten a lot more creative. Maybe next year!

Would I go back to Tulsa for another Nationals even if there was a good chance at another mud event? Maybe. But I'll be shipping in a box of all weather gear.

And I won't stay at that hotel ever again. I have stayed in some bad places but that one is the worst in a long, long time. The internet was flaky when it worked and wireless wasn't working 90% of the time at least down in my part of the hotel. The AC had two positions; on and off. Leave it on and you had to shake the frost out of your hair in the morning and leaving it off just wasn't an option. Service in the bar was also suspect. I ordered a gin and tonic at one point and was asked "what's in that?". An hour later it finally arrived. I heard that when Holiday Inn sold it off that most of the staff quit so we were left with those that couldn't find jobs elsewhere and brand new hires. I know one of the bar tenders at the awards was given 10 minutes of training before people showed up because I stood there waiting to order while she was being trained waiting for a beer.

I have another theory on the plauques...they are heavy and excess baggage rules being what they are many folks just weren't going to risk it. Maybe if USPSA had them in boxes and if you want them shipped to you just write your name and address on the front and hand them $10 and they ship them out. Yes, Kim and Matt don't need more to do but it wouldn't be that bad.

I brought home two pairs of boots which were still water logged. They contributed greatly to my $50 overweight bag fee. I should have left them in the trashcan along with the cheapo Walmart rubber boots I bought in Tulsa. I noted the parking lots were littered with boots, shoes, cleats, etc. on Saturday.

Otherwise I had a great time and as always enjoyed meeting old friends and meeting new ones.

And the one "good" thing about the weather? It kept me out of the vendor tent enough that I didn't succumb to the temptation to order a Open blaster from Brazos. Well, the wife thinks that is a good thing. I'm not so sure.

Thanks everyone! See you next year...wherever it may be!

[Flexmoney]

Sure you could have, and you would have been correct to do so.

If you read 2.2.1.1, in soft surface conditions, there is no required fault line height - only a recommended one. The rule is another that needs to go on the list to be rewritten...

That one was rewritten in the last go around. I lobbied on it quite a bit on the USPSA forum at the time.

I wasn't there, but from your description, if I were CRO, you would have gotten a reshoot. And, if I were the shooter, I would have kicked it up the chain. (In fact, I have done so at a Major...where loose and deep gravel had buried the side fault line one me.)

We should probably start a thread in the rules section if we are to talk on it more.

[joer]

I don't understand something - I have talked to people who shoot overseas, and there, they have people who tape targets, and set steel. How much could it be, to hire two people per stage, to do that? $30 additional? It doesn't seem right to have competitors touch targets, and set steel, some of which gets set differently for each competitor. Some RO's say up front that they will set all the steel. Other's don't. I also don't get why on some stages, the last shooter is told he has to set all the steel and paint?

Also, is seems as if the match was not advertised locally....Every restaurant that we went in, no one even had a clue that a US Nationals was being held, less than 5 miles away. At one place, my friend struck up a conversation with a guy who noticed our shooting shirts. The next day, he showed up with his two sons and wife. He was interested in shooting with his sons. It seems that it would be a good way to grow the sport.

[jimbob_texas]

Squad 10 was great. It was a real pleasure to meet some new folks, and get to know the rest better. Even if we are an ill-behaved, foul-mouthed bunch of Texans, we're still fun.

The match was a little bit of a whoopin', for sure. But it didn't kill us, so ostensibly, we will be stronger. I think the mud took away some people's game, particularly those who rely on foot speed to get from point A to B. Personally, I was scared to death of my footing (I'm kinda famous for losing it).

Congrats to all who won, and thanks to all the staff, particularly the longsuffering ROs. You have my gratitude and admiration for contending with those conditions.

jr

[Kevin Kline]

All in all, I wish the mud was not there and conditions were different, but I always push myself to improvise, overcome, adapt and just deal w/ it.

Great job by staff on the range, I appreciate it more than you know.

Finally, GREAT JOB SHANNON!!.

Brother, 4th in Lim and 3rd in Lim 10, awesome. We'll have to hook up when you're back home. This is a really good primer for World Shoot.

Thanks to Sharyn also, awesome job w/ the live webcam and I enjoyed helping out while shooting. Sharyn, I told you I was not much of a commentator and next we know not to use my real name!

[John Baier]

Hi all,

Just recovering from CRO'ing stage 6 at both nationals. I would like to thank Tom Troyer and Phil Williams who worked with me and also saved my butt a few time s. I would be honored to work with you two again.(if you'll have me). My hat's off to Michael Rhea for giving me a hand when we were running behind on one squad . I do love working Nationals, seeing old friends and making new ones. It always a kick listening to the old timers at the bar talk about the good old days. As for the hotel, well lets say I've seen road side motels in better shape. I plan on staying at the candlewood in Owosso next time. I don't mind rain, its comes with the sport. But running shooters in conditions like we had last week is not only extremely unpleasant for us the RO's but for the shooters also. Who wants to spend a thousand bucks or more on a match when you have deal with mud up to your ankles, poppers that are submerged under water when they fall, etc, etc. Oh and don't forget the smell As for the targets, scoring perfs would have been nice. Having to going up to a target and use a straight edge to score is ridiculous. I still don't know if palm scoring was a good idea or not, I guess time will tell on that one.

I'll be off to work multi-gun nationals at the Clark range next month, I'm only hoping for dry weather. Is that to much to ask?

As for next year, let's pray for dry weather

[Charles Bond]

I don't understand something - I have talked to people who shoot overseas, and there, they have people who tape targets, and set steel. How much could it be, to hire two people per stage, to do that? $30 additional? It doesn't seem right to have competitors touch targets, and set steel, some of which gets set differently for each competitor. Some RO's say up front that they will set all the steel. Other's don't. I also don't get why on some stages, the last shooter is told he has to set all the steel and paint?

Also, is seems as if the match was not advertised locally....Every restaurant that we went in, no one even had a clue that a US Nationals was being held, less than 5 miles away. At one place, my friend struck up a conversation with a guy who noticed our shooting shirts. The next day, he showed up with his two sons and wife. He was interested in shooting with his sons. It seems that it would be a good way to grow the sport.

Folks who shoot overseas tend to be the priviledged few and those who are setting targets tend to be folks who might otherwise be unemployed. The US simply can not do it this way short of taking our nationals south of the border. Given the opportunity to use others to do it, I have little doubt that they could show up and work for tips and make even more than the $30 you suggest.

Once upon a time when PASA was the venue and the nationals were held when school was not in session, there was no shortage of volunteer groups to show up and assist with match production. Boy scouts setting steel. Cub scouts pasting. Girl Scout, 4-H Clubs, etc were happy to show up, lend a hand and take away a donation for their organization. If USPSA decided to host the match at a venue during summer school break, this would be something that could happen again but the contact for that would have to be local since our national office just does not have the leads necessary to make that happen.

As to local coverage of this year's nationals prior to the fact, we can not control that. Of course it would have been nice to have the local chamber of commerce involved but Tulsa is a town that hosts thousands of people each year for all manner of conventions and relatively speaking, ours was but a small show. Our office sent out tons of media to the Tulsa area and in fact we received more TV air time and more printed coverage than ever before during this year's nationals. What media was published prior to the match starting may have not been as much as we would have liked but the attention it drew once underway was in every way over the top. It was sorta like my not knowing that Tulsa was hosting an Eagles concert while I was at the nationals. Had I know that was available before the day of the event, I would have tried to get some tickets.

[Charles Bond]

Hi all,

Just recovering from CRO'ing stage 6 at both nationals. I would like to thank Tom Troyer and Phil Williams who worked with me and also saved my butt a few time s. I would be honored to work with you two again.(if you'll have me). My hat's off to Michael Rhea for giving me a hand when we were running behind on one squad . I do love working Nationals, seeing old friends and making new ones. It always a kick listening to the old timers at the bar talk about the good old days. As for the hotel, well lets say I've seen road side motels in better shape. I plan on staying at the candlewood in Owosso next time. I don't mind rain, its comes with the sport. But running shooters in conditions like we had last week is not only extremely unpleasant for us the RO's but for the shooters also. Who wants to spend a thousand bucks or more on a match when you have deal with mud up to your ankles, poppers that are submerged under water when they fall, etc, etc. Oh and don't forget the smell As for the targets, scoring perfs would have been nice. Having to going up to a target and use a straight edge to score is ridiculous. I still don't know if palm scoring was a good idea or not, I guess time will tell on that one.

I'll be off to work multi-gun nationals at the Clark range next month, I'm only hoping for dry weather. Is that to much to ask?

As for next year, let's pray for dry weather

John

To you and the rest of the staff who worked longer hours than could have reasonably been expected and worked in the conditions you did, I say thank you. I have never experienced a match where each and every shooter thought that the real heros of the event were the range staff in the manner that they did with this match. While you almost always hear a complaint or two about even the most talented of range staff, I heard not one work of that this year from any shooter. What I did hear freqently was "I can not believe they (ROs) are still here." That you stayed and worked harder than ever before is a blessing to all of us.

I wish you dry weather and sunshine for the multigun.

[ysued]

Folks who shoot overseas tend to be the priviledged few and those who are setting targets tend to be folks who might otherwise be unemployed. The US simply can not do it this way short of taking our nationals south of the border. Given the opportunity to use others to do it, I have little doubt that they could show up and work for tips and make even more than the $30 you suggest.

Once upon a time when PASA was the venue and the nationals were held when school was not in session, there was no shortage of volunteer groups to show up and assist with match production. Boy scouts setting steel. Cub scouts pasting. Girl Scout, 4-H Clubs, etc were happy to show up, lend a hand and take away a donation for their organization. If USPSA decided to host the match at a venue during summer school break, this would be something that could happen again but the contact for that would have to be local since our national office just does not have the leads necessary to make that happen.

Just like they used to do it in Norco, BOY SCOUTS!!!

Payment??? Give them the range Brass, so they can sort it, bag it and sell it back to the shooters!!

Tulsa is a great range!! Find me another facility in the CONUS that has the same shooting facilities, Centrally Located, Inexpensive to fly or drive to and it's close to a major airport (20 Min Max)

HMMMMMMMM, Vegas used to be OK, not anymore!! Not big enough Reno isn't either!! Montana is great, but not cheap to fly to (About 4 times as much for me in Phoenix).

As to local coverage of this year's nationals prior to the fact, we can not control that. Of course it would have been nice to have the local chamber of commerce involved but Tulsa is a town that hosts thousands of people each year for all manner of conventions and relatively speaking, ours was but a small show. Our office sent out tons of media to the Tulsa area and in fact we received more TV air time and more printed coverage than ever before during this year's nationals. What media was published prior to the match starting may have not been as much as we would have liked but the attention it drew once underway was in every way over the top. It was sorta like my not knowing that Tulsa was hosting an Eagles concert while I was at the nationals. Had I know that was available before the day of the event, I would have tried to get some tickets.

Do you want the Tulsa Chamber of Commerce to do something for us?? Easy.... Approach them!!! call the Visitors Bureau!! Create an Economic Impact Statement!! Nobody contacted the Owasso Hotels!! I bet you know someone at the USPSA BOD

[Jim Norman]

I am in favor of returning to Tulsa as it is a relatively easy two day drive. The location relative to hotels, airport, restaurants and diversions is excellent. Vegas might have more to do, but it is further to go for most of us and I understand the range is not as good. I think that the potential for this range is virtually unlimited as far as USPSA Pistol matches go. All we need is a few tons of stone or gravel on the ranges instead of the sod and rain will cease to be a major concern.

As for the efforts of the RO staff, enough cannot be said. Even at the worst hey kept going and kept smiling (maybe they were grimaces)

Jim

Edited September 16, 2008 by Jim Norman

[AikiDale]

We are doing something very, very wrong. People will pay to volunteer!

Volunteers pay $220

[ysued]

I am in favor of returning to Tulsa as it is a relatively easy two day drive. The location relative to hotels, airport, restaurants and diversions is excellent. Vegas might have more to do, but it is further to go for most of us and I understand the range is not as good. I think that the potential for his range is virtually unlimited as far as USPSA Pistol matches go. All we need is a few tons of stone or gravel on the ranges instead of the sod and rain will cease to be a major concern.

As for the efforts of the RO staff, enough cannot be said. Even at the wort hey kept going and kept smiling (maybe they were grimaces)

Jim

Jim,

I agree 100%!!

they just need Sand, Rock and lots of work!!

The RO's were fantastic!! In all levels!! They were friendly and very helpful. They worked so hard!! I have picture to prove it!! Thanks guys!!

[mike cyrwus]

O/L10 was a horse of different color though. Half way through Thursday I put out the call to Mr. Fix-it to find me a shovel and rake. Between squads we would pull all the mud and chips out of the shooting area (along with all the water we could) and then fill it back in with new chips. This really helped stabilize things but what worked for us may not have worked for others. We tried real hard to keep the fault lines above the mess but it was just about impossible without taking a couple minutes to clean things between each shooter.

It was obvious that the work for you guys didnt end in-between squads.

I was the fellow who told you and the other RO's on several occasions that yours was the best groomed stage.

Y'all worked your butts off to maintain a good shooting area surface.

It looked like an island in an ocean of muddy water.

I cant thank you enough.