Open / L-10 Nats Banter

[shred]

The range also needs more parking...especially if they want to host the WS.

For World Shoots the hosting country has to provide bus transport for competitors/RO's. There is no range anywhere in the world that I am aware of that could cope with 1200 shooters + RO's vendors etc arriving by cars.

USSA may want to check access roads to the range to make sure that a flow of buses could arrive, drop off and drive off (via another exit) from the range, to keep the flow moving.

There were no competitor buses at the 1000-shooter EHC last year and only small vans for the ROs. Parking wasn't fun if you were late. For a WS, buses will likely be expected.

[kimel]

There is a second exit road (or that is what it looked like) from USSA but it was still gravel and under construction from back by the back parking lot.

USSA can be fixed. Nothing a few tons of gravel or sand or both along with a mile or so of drain tile can't fix there. They don't have quite enough room for a World Shoot yet unless they stack stages two to a bay. But from the video I saw of the last WS they did exactly that quite a bit.

Personally I don't care about the rain, humidity or the temperature all that much; within reasonable limits anyway. The temp at Area 1 was at the upper end of "reasonable" but given a place to cool down and plenty of cold drinks (and TechWear!) it wasn't deadly. The biggest thing I was concerned with at USSA this year was safety due to footing. I was surprised that we didn't see more shooters go face first into the goo with a loaded gun.

I guess I don't care where Nats are for '09 all that much. I'll probably be there and I'll have a lot of fun seeing old friends and making new ones because no matter where the match is; you know that the best people on the planet with be there. I'd love to see a Nats in Missoula MT or Albany OR again too. Both are great clubs, good ranges and great folks.

[XRe]

They don't have quite enough room for a World Shoot yet unless they stack stages two to a bay. But from the video I saw of the last WS they did exactly that quite a bit.

Some of that - plus, realize that a match of that size might could also (theoretically) use the 360 bay, the shoot house, etc, adding to the size of the range compared to the traditional "bays". Small stages do fit easily into the same bay - and the WS would have quite a number of small stages, of course.

Personally I don't care about the rain, humidity or the temperature all that much; within reasonable limits anyway. The temp at Area 1 was at the upper end of "reasonable" but given a place to cool down and plenty of cold drinks (and TechWear!) it wasn't deadly. The biggest thing I was concerned with at USSA this year was safety due to footing. I was surprised that we didn't see more shooters go face first into the goo with a loaded gun.

I think this is the main point (or should be) - the weather is the weather. You can't help the weather - but you also can't allow the range to become less than safe to run that kind of match in those conditions.

I'd love to see a Nats in Missoula MT or Albany OR again too. Both are great clubs, good ranges and great folks.

I would definitely shoot in Missoula again. Haven't been to Albany, yet, so...

[HoMiE]

Haven't been to Albany, yet, so...

Maybey they will use the breeching door again?

[kimel]

Maybey they will use the breeching door again?

I wouldn't get my hopes up on that one.

[chendersby]

Keep in mind that a range and club has to want to host a Nationals. It is no small undertaking.

[Chuck Anderson]

USSA has more than enough room to host a World Shoot. The one in Ecuador had 24 bays used. USSA has 20 conventional, plus two, 100 yd carbine bays, a side match bay, Action pistol bays with turning targets, the shoot house, the 360 bay (which could easily be turned into half a dozen temporary bays needed. There is more than enough parking space available at the range, especially if you bus some competitors. The range is still under construction. There will be more parking by 2011.

[XRe]

I've always had a dream of using a 360 bay for a 360 degree course of fire - put up a couple of cameras, and strap the timer on the shooter's back (so you can verify they don't mess w/ the timer) - or set things up to not be an RO trap, or whatever. Remembering the mine stage from the last WS, I'd bet you could do something really fun w/ a 360 bay

[Chuck Anderson]

I've always had a dream of using a 360 bay for a 360 degree course of fire - put up a couple of cameras, and strap the timer on the shooter's back (so you can verify they don't mess w/ the timer) - or set things up to not be an RO trap, or whatever. Remembering the mine stage from the last WS, I'd bet you could do something really fun w/ a 360 bay

I doubt they would be able to do it at a World Shoot. The rules are pretty specific about enforcing 90 degree rules. Not sure how they could get around that. I have shot 360 degree bays in competition. The RO roped himself to the shooter. It is a really suprising experience how much you miss the first time that you do it.

[ysued]

I've always had a dream of using a 360 bay for a 360 degree course of fire - put up a couple of cameras, and strap the timer on the shooter's back (so you can verify they don't mess w/ the timer) - or set things up to not be an RO trap, or whatever. Remembering the mine stage from the last WS, I'd bet you could do something really fun w/ a 360 bay

I doubt they would be able to do it at a World Shoot. The rules are pretty specific about enforcing 90 degree rules. Not sure how they could get around that. I have shot 360 degree bays in competition. The RO roped himself to the shooter. It is a really suprising experience how much you miss the first time that you do it.

Didn't they have a 360 Stage at the England World Shoot in 93??

Y

[zman]

A view of the Nationals from a old timer

Thanks to the RO`s and Staff,but where is the customer service, we pay alot of money to shoot and RO`s expense comes from that and we all volunteer to be there.

We are told to tape and set steel plus set the moving targets,come on what else should we do,score and RO our self,(oh my god) if you said any thing,like are we at boot camp or what F###,you were told to shut up and you will be DQ,NICE but no thanks.

This is wrong, we shouldn`t be taping targets,if you tape a target out of turn( a reshoot ),well if it was done with a miss or a no shoot,oh you are looked on as a cheater group or if you had a burning run and it gets tape,the RO won`t beleave the taper,so now it`s again,reshoot,as for steel setting and clam type movers,it`s not the same person setting,so it will and has not responded at the same timing,not fair,as some else said in this forum,charge more and pay some one to do that job.

Where was a sighting range,oh ya, the chronograph area,well a steel target at 20 yds away,one person at a time with some one to watch you,with all the empty ranges there you would think we could be use one!!

Here a good one for the chroney boys,what tool do you have that measures the chronograph that you use,I had to walk away holding my shorts---(165.2) holy moly,if my bullet didn`t weight 124.5 I would have not made it,funny when I left home the same load was at 169 to171 with the same model of chronograph and when I came home it was the same when I left,what`s up with this,in the manual it reads +or- .03% so why can`t the chrony boys give you that .03%,I know a few persons that when home not making it and when they tested the same rounds home it made it just fine,not a good system used.

I could go on and on,I thought range was a great place and the rain was cool too, shooting in it was a really great test.

We need to look at the way we do things and get back to the FUN and Excitment of what love doing and stop treating our shooters like dung.

zman

[John Baier]

A view of the Nationals from a old timer

Thanks to the RO`s and Staff,but where is the customer service, we pay alot of money to shoot and RO`s expense comes from that and we all volunteer to be there.

We are told to tape and set steel plus set the moving targets,come on what else should we do,score and RO our self,(oh my god) if you said any thing,like are we at boot camp or what F###,you were told to shut up and you will be DQ,NICE but no thanks.

This is wrong, we shouldn`t be taping targets,if you tape a target out of turn( a reshoot ),well if it was done with a miss or a no shoot,oh you are looked on as a cheater group or if you had a burning run and it gets tape,the RO won`t beleave the taper,so now it`s again,reshoot,as for steel setting and clam type movers,it`s not the same person setting,so it will and has not responded at the same timing,not fair,as some else said in this forum,charge more and pay some one to do that job.

Where was a sighting range,oh ya, the chronograph area,well a steel target at 20 yds away,one person at a time with some one to watch you,with all the empty ranges there you would think we could be use one!!

Here a good one for the chroney boys,what tool do you have that measures the chronograph that you use,I had to walk away holding my shorts---(165.2) holy moly,if my bullet didn`t weight 124.5 I would have not made it,funny when I left home the same load was at 169 to171 with the same model of chronograph and when I came home it was the same when I left,what`s up with this,in the manual it reads +or- .03% so why can`t the chrony boys give you that .03%,I know a few persons that when home not making it and when they tested the same rounds home it made it just fine,not a good system used.

I could go on and on,I thought range was a great place and the rain was cool too, shooting in it was a really great test.

We need to look at the way we do things and get back to the FUN and Excitment of what love doing and stop treating our shooters like dung.

zman

zman,

If you haven't noticed this is a sport run by volunteers. there would not be any major matches without volunteers manning them. Believe me I would love to have dedicated tapers and steel setters but the cost would be outrageous. RO's are only reimbursed a portion of their expenses and at a lot of matches not at all. You know this reminds me of a competitor at this past nationals that when I said this was a volunteer sport responded with "I paid USPSA 500.00 to shoot not paint" When I told him that I don't get paid at all, his response was "thats your problem". Its disheartening to hear this when your working from 7:00am to 8:00pm running shooters for six days in the either the hot sun or pouring rain. Thank God its a very small percentage that act this way. The 98% that make up the rest are good people that appreciated our commitment to the sport.

As for pre-pasted targets:

Rule 9.1.3 Prematurely Patched Targets - If a target is prematurely patched or taped, prior to a Range Official determining the actual score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire. However, if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than a Range Officer, the score will stand as called regardless of the competitor’s opportunity to see the target in question and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called.

Zman, if you think you can do it better than the rest of us. By all means be our guest, we're always looking for volunteers!!!

~John

Edited September 20, 2008 by John Baier

[larry cazes]

A view of the Nationals from a old timer

Thanks to the RO`s and Staff,but where is the customer service, we pay alot of money to shoot and RO`s expense comes from that and we all volunteer to be there.

We are told to tape and set steel plus set the moving targets,come on what else should we do,score and RO our self,(oh my god) if you said any thing,like are we at boot camp or what F###,you were told to shut up and you will be DQ,NICE but no thanks.

This is wrong, we shouldn`t be taping targets,if you tape a target out of turn( a reshoot ),well if it was done with a miss or a no shoot,oh you are looked on as a cheater group or if you had a burning run and it gets tape,the RO won`t beleave the taper,so now it`s again,reshoot,as for steel setting and clam type movers,it`s not the same person setting,so it will and has not responded at the same timing,not fair,as some else said in this forum,charge more and pay some one to do that job.

Where was a sighting range,oh ya, the chronograph area,well a steel target at 20 yds away,one person at a time with some one to watch you,with all the empty ranges there you would think we could be use one!!

Here a good one for the chroney boys,what tool do you have that measures the chronograph that you use,I had to walk away holding my shorts---(165.2) holy moly,if my bullet didn`t weight 124.5 I would have not made it,funny when I left home the same load was at 169 to171 with the same model of chronograph and when I came home it was the same when I left,what`s up with this,in the manual it reads +or- .03% so why can`t the chrony boys give you that .03%,I know a few persons that when home not making it and when they tested the same rounds home it made it just fine,not a good system used.

I could go on and on,I thought range was a great place and the rain was cool too, shooting in it was a really great test.

We need to look at the way we do things and get back to the FUN and Excitment of what love doing and stop treating our shooters like dung.

zman

Wow! That's a mouthful.

Edited September 20, 2008 by larry cazes

[BritinUSA]

Didn't they have a 360 Stage at the England

No, not that I can recall. I think there was a match in France once that did it.

[BritinUSA]

I chrono'ed at CO state at 168 and the exact same load (same batch) made 165.2 at Nationals. The had to use all 6 rounds to get there.

[ysued]

Didn't they have a 360 Stage at the England

No, not that I can recall. I think there was a match in France once that did it.

Thanks!! I remember hearing that back in the early 90's!!

[joer]

A view of the Nationals from a old timer

Thanks to the RO`s and Staff,but where is the customer service, we pay alot of money to shoot and RO`s expense comes from that and we all volunteer to be there.

We are told to tape and set steel plus set the moving targets,come on what else should we do,score and RO our self,(oh my god) if you said any thing,like are we at boot camp or what F###,you were told to shut up and you will be DQ,NICE but no thanks.

This is wrong, we shouldn`t be taping targets,if you tape a target out of turn( a reshoot ),well if it was done with a miss or a no shoot,oh you are looked on as a cheater group or if you had a burning run and it gets tape,the RO won`t beleave the taper,so now it`s again,reshoot,as for steel setting and clam type movers,it`s not the same person setting,so it will and has not responded at the same timing,not fair,as some else said in this forum,charge more and pay some one to do that job.

Where was a sighting range,oh ya, the chronograph area,well a steel target at 20 yds away,one person at a time with some one to watch you,with all the empty ranges there you would think we could be use one!!

Here a good one for the chroney boys,what tool do you have that measures the chronograph that you use,I had to walk away holding my shorts---(165.2) holy moly,if my bullet didn`t weight 124.5 I would have not made it,funny when I left home the same load was at 169 to171 with the same model of chronograph and when I came home it was the same when I left,what`s up with this,in the manual it reads +or- .03% so why can`t the chrony boys give you that .03%,I know a few persons that when home not making it and when they tested the same rounds home it made it just fine,not a good system used.

I could go on and on,I thought range was a great place and the rain was cool too, shooting in it was a really great test.

We need to look at the way we do things and get back to the FUN and Excitment of what love doing and stop treating our shooters like dung.

zman

zman,

If you haven't noticed this is a sport run by volunteers. there would not be any major matches without volunteers manning them. Believe me I would love to have dedicated tapers and steel setters but the cost would be outrageous. RO's are only reimbursed a portion of their expenses and at a lot of matches not at all. You know this reminds me of a competitor at this past nationals that when I said this was a volunteer sport responded with "I paid USPSA 500.00 to shoot not paint" When I told him that I don't get paid at all, his response was "thats your problem". Its disheartening to hear this when your working from 7:00am to 8:00pm running shooters for six days in the either the hot sun or pouring rain. Thank God its a very small percentage that act this way. The 98% that make up the rest are good people that appreciated our commitment to the sport.

As for pre-pasted targets:

Rule 9.1.3 Prematurely Patched Targets - If a target is prematurely patched or taped, prior to a Range Official determining the actual score, the Range Officer must order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire. However, if following the scoring of a target by any assigned Range Officer, the target is patched or taped by anyone other than a Range Officer, the score will stand as called regardless of the competitor’s opportunity to see the target in question and the competitor will not be permitted to appeal the score as called.

Zman, if you think you can do it better than the rest of us. By all means be our guest, we're always looking for volunteers!!!

~John

I had the same experience at the chrono - I do have a different model chrono - but I was at 169 consistently at home, and I checked my loads when I got back , almost exactly the same -169.5.. Yet I was 166 at the Nationals.

I guess I don't see how the cost for tapers would be outrageous - 2 people per stage, dedicated - 36 people per day, even at $100 per, that is $10K for one match. 250 paid shooters? $40 per shooter - on top of the $275 fee? Doesn't sound outrageous to me.

Edited September 21, 2008 by joer

[mactiger]

Chronograph uses the calibration ammo, which hasn't changed in the past 2 years. 120.3 to 120.6 from my Glock 17. I don't think our chronograph was the problem. If you use the same double chronograph setup, CED IR emitters and detectors, in a box, as we do, then I don't know the answer to your question. If you don't, then I would, if you want to make comparisons.

Taping and setting steel have been a competitor part of Nationals for the last several years. The last group I remember that helped with that was the PASA volunteers, and they stopped coming because of PASA policy, not because of USPSA. Boy Scouts, etc., never work out well, because they have to be watched for safety and procedure--the RO's shouldn't be baby sitters.

Setting activator targets should be done by the RO crew, but sometimes that doesn't happen. It's unfortunate, because it slows everything down for reshoots.

Sight in ranges that aren't manned are an accident waiting to happen, and at this particular match, we needed everyone we could get to work the stages. Therefore, sight in was at chrono, with a CRO overseeing. We did an unmanned sight in range once, at PASA, and I couldn't believe that USPSA competitors could act that way--they shot up the .22 LR stands, they left trash everywhere, and I'd be willing to bet that several rounds left that range. Never again on my watch. Of course, if you want to volunteer to man and operate a sight in range that's up to your standards, feel free to contact USPSA prior to next year's match, and we'll put you on the staff list.

With the weather we had, and the problems associated with it, I think the staff did an exemplary job. The competitors did an oustanding job of pitching in as well, especially with the adverse conditions and the accelerated schedule we asked you to shoot.

Nationals are operated on a budget, like everything else in USPSA. If you want to pay double the match fee, then we could probably hire day laborers to come in and do a lot of the work that the shooters do now, but I'd be willing to bet that most people won't pay a $500 entry fee to come shoot Nationals, even if it means that they don't have to move from their lounge chair until it's time to shoot. Believe me, if I could run a match like that, I would, but it's not a realistic expectation. One of the things that has happened, due to shooter input, has been that we try to not keep you there longer than necessary, since hotels and meals are expensive. The downside is that you have to help.

You pays your money, you takes your chances.

Troy

A view of the Nationals from a old timer

Thanks to the RO`s and Staff,but where is the customer service, we pay alot of money to shoot and RO`s expense comes from that and we all volunteer to be there.

We are told to tape and set steel plus set the moving targets,come on what else should we do,score and RO our self,(oh my god) if you said any thing,like are we at boot camp or what F###,you were told to shut up and you will be DQ,NICE but no thanks.

This is wrong, we shouldn`t be taping targets,if you tape a target out of turn( a reshoot ),well if it was done with a miss or a no shoot,oh you are looked on as a cheater group or if you had a burning run and it gets tape,the RO won`t beleave the taper,so now it`s again,reshoot,as for steel setting and clam type movers,it`s not the same person setting,so it will and has not responded at the same timing,not fair,as some else said in this forum,charge more and pay some one to do that job.

Where was a sighting range,oh ya, the chronograph area,well a steel target at 20 yds away,one person at a time with some one to watch you,with all the empty ranges there you would think we could be use one!!

Here a good one for the chroney boys,what tool do you have that measures the chronograph that you use,I had to walk away holding my shorts---(165.2) holy moly,if my bullet didn`t weight 124.5 I would have not made it,funny when I left home the same load was at 169 to171 with the same model of chronograph and when I came home it was the same when I left,what`s up with this,in the manual it reads +or- .03% so why can`t the chrony boys give you that .03%,I know a few persons that when home not making it and when they tested the same rounds home it made it just fine,not a good system used.

I could go on and on,I thought range was a great place and the rain was cool too, shooting in it was a really great test.

We need to look at the way we do things and get back to the FUN and Excitment of what love doing and stop treating our shooters like dung.

zman

[ysued]

Troy,

I don't see the big whoop about taping and setting steel!! I do it all the time.

I have shot several Nationals and Are matche sand I always paste and pick up steel, like I do at club matches. I don't understand this issue.

Y

Chronograph uses the calibration ammo, which hasn't changed in the past 2 years. 120.3 to 120.6 from my Glock 17. I don't think our chronograph was the problem. If you use the same double chronograph setup, CED IR emitters and detectors, in a box, as we do, then I don't know the answer to your question. If you don't, then I would, if you want to make comparisons.

Taping and setting steel have been a competitor part of Nationals for the last several years. The last group I remember that helped with that was the PASA volunteers, and they stopped coming because of PASA policy, not because of USPSA. Boy Scouts, etc., never work out well, because they have to be watched for safety and procedure--the RO's shouldn't be baby sitters.

Setting activator targets should be done by the RO crew, but sometimes that doesn't happen. It's unfortunate, because it slows everything down for reshoots.

Sight in ranges that aren't manned are an accident waiting to happen, and at this particular match, we needed everyone we could get to work the stages. Therefore, sight in was at chrono, with a CRO overseeing. We did an unmanned sight in range once, at PASA, and I couldn't believe that USPSA competitors could act that way--they shot up the .22 LR stands, they left trash everywhere, and I'd be willing to bet that several rounds left that range. Never again on my watch. Of course, if you want to volunteer to man and operate a sight in range that's up to your standards, feel free to contact USPSA prior to next year's match, and we'll put you on the staff list.

With the weather we had, and the problems associated with it, I think the staff did an exemplary job. The competitors did an oustanding job of pitching in as well, especially with the adverse conditions and the accelerated schedule we asked you to shoot.

Nationals are operated on a budget, like everything else in USPSA. If you want to pay double the match fee, then we could probably hire day laborers to come in and do a lot of the work that the shooters do now, but I'd be willing to bet that most people won't pay a $500 entry fee to come shoot Nationals, even if it means that they don't have to move from their lounge chair until it's time to shoot. Believe me, if I could run a match like that, I would, but it's not a realistic expectation. One of the things that has happened, due to shooter input, has been that we try to not keep you there longer than necessary, since hotels and meals are expensive. The downside is that you have to help.

You pays your money, you takes your chances.

Troy

[shred]

Shoot some of the South & Central American matches if you don't want to paste or set steel. They have helpers, sometimes army and police auxiliaries, often for no pay at all.

Of course, I know Mr Zman has been to at least one of those...

[driver8M3]

regarding pasting, etc: considering the incredible # of volunteer hours (including taking vacation time from work) that go into running a match the size of nationals (or any match really), i'm just happy we actually have matches to shoot. how about this; if you don't like pasting, bring your own paid assistant to do your share. that way my match fee won't go up.

when i get to within 3 points of the lower limit of my power factor, it's time for me to increase my power factor. not all chronographs (or scales) give the same results (perhaps they should, but they don't), and the only one that matters is the one they're running at the current match. if i'm within 5 points, i know i'm running some risk of not making it at a match.

Edited September 21, 2008 by driver8M3

[BritinUSA]

...We did an unmanned sight in range once, at PASA, and I couldn't believe that USPSA competitors could act that way--they shot up the .22 LR stands, they left trash everywhere, and I'd be willing to bet that several rounds left that range...

I can fully understand the reasons for having a smaller function-fire range at Nationals. I used it and it worked fine.

Regarding the PASA incident, you left out the reason why the competitors were using the .22 range.

A PASA member had taken down the targets from the sight-in range and directed competitors to the .22 range across the other side of the access road, because he wanted to use the official sight-in range with his son. Competitors arriving at the .22 range saw the target stands and assumed that these were the stands for sighting-in.

That does not excuse the garbage, but any damage to the stands and rounds leaving the range would not have happened but for this PASA member.

[Catfish]

Would it be nice to have someone else tape, set steel and pick up my brass?? Hell yeah!!

However, even though I've only been shooting "action" pistol since 98-99, that has always been the job of the shooters. And that's just fine with me.

As long as the rest of my squad is helping work, tape, and set steel (like squad 10 at this year's L10/Open nats!!!), life is good.

I hate to see a thread on the nationals turn into a bitch fest - the match staff, volunteers all - busted their ass off for us to come out there and make once fired brass and regardless of what some folks might say, their hard work in truly miserable conditions - was greatly appreciated.

[BritinUSA]

when i get to within 3 points of the lower limit of my power factor, it's time for me to increase my power factor. not all chronographs (or scales) give the same results (perhaps they should, but they don't), and the only one that matters is the one they're running at the current match. if i'm within 5 points, i know i'm running some risk of not making it at a match.

There are four possible reasons for a drop in PF (assuming all components being the same).

1. Temperature (it was cooler in Tulsa than Pueblo, CO)

2. Humidity, CO is not generally known for damp weather

3. Altitude, CO is 5,500 feet or thereabouts.

4. A problem with the Chrono

The Chrono at CO State was the same one as used at Nationals by the same operator. So I must assume that one or more of the top three were the cause. I'm leaning towards number 3. Not sure what the altitude is at Tulsa but the slightly thicker air may have caused the 24 fps drop that I experienced..

[BritinUSA]

I hate to see a thread on the nationals turn into a bitch fest - the match staff, volunteers all - busted their ass off for us to come out there and make once fired brass and regardless of what some folks might say, their hard work in truly miserable conditions - was greatly appreciated.

+1

The match was very well run, the RO's were dedicated and worked their butts off, the stage designs were superb. The Palm thingies worked very, very well. I liked the rapid turn-around for results and meeting up with all the nice people from last year's Nationals.

Okay, it rained. Nothing to be done about that (at least it was warm) and on the plus side my car did get a free wash each day. My only complaint was the mud. Especially that weird smelly stuff on one of the berms, I'm not entirely sure what was causing that smell and quite frankly I'd rather not know... My cleats ended up in the dumpster just in case, I had to do the same thing at the WS in 1999, so it's not like this is an uncommon thing.

Kudos to all involved.