Open / L-10 Nats Banter

[Charles Bond]

The Chrono at CO State was the same one as used at Nationals by the same operator. So I must assume that one or more of the top three were the cause. I'm leaning towards number 3. Not sure what the altitude is at Tulsa but the slightly thicker air may have caused the 24 fps drop that I experienced..

The very same chrono or the same brand of chrono?

I have been shooting the same batch of ammo out of my limited gun for over two years. We even ordered the powder in case lots so there was no varable there. That same batch of match ammo (we loaded 10K rounds at one time) has been fired across the same brand of chrono by the same chrono operator during at least two of my area matches (Ken has been so kind as to work our A6 match the last few years) and one other nationals (again with Ken running the very same chrono in an identical setup) and my ammo always ran no less than 170pf. Imagine my reaction when my ammo went 164.5 on the first three rounds this year. I made the pf with the next three shots but with little to spare.

A few others on my squad noticed pf less than what they state they normally run. Troy notes the chrono has been consistent on the same type of 9mm ammo as in the past. I can say that this years limited chrono was not consistent using the same type and batch of ammo I have used for the last 26-28 months. Tulsa's elevation is about 200ft higher than my home which should result in more velocity out of the same load. Humidity there was awful but it is only slightly more than a Georgia summer. Maybe it was the lights. Maybe it was the sensors. Maybe it was something else but I am convinced that my ammo has not had any breakdown in power since my chrono readings upon my return from Tusa were exactly where they were before I left.

[pjb45]

I shot both matches with the exact same ammo. The gun was in the same condition for both chrono days. That means there were just a couple of stages of shooting before the chrono. The barrel and gun were relatively clean. I used VV320. This is the same ammo and gun used at other Nationals and A2. As a general rule it chronos at 170-171 at 3 A2 and 4 Nationals.

Because of the difference in temperature, I had a 171 one day and 167 the other day. The 167 on a much cooler day. Actually it was one round that brought the other two up to 167. I was pretty lucky that day.

The question of should there be some tolerance or wiggle room, I would vote no. If you play close to the edge and get burned then that is your problem. As Don Golembieski once said you need to be at least five over the minimum power factor (he is the technical rep for VV) to be safe.

To be frank, I shot with some people who chrono'd at major who later had no !@%^#$% muzzle flip in their gun. One shooter was not someone with a lot of power in his grip. He truly was using two different sets of ammo. Even people who knew him suggested the same thing. Heck even an RO thought it was noteworthy. I mean this guy's gun had less muzzle flip than my .22 conversion unit on my LDC.

A2 has employed various methods of collecting chrono ammo which had a tendecy to reduce the number of folks using two different sets of ammo. I would like to see Nationals do the same. Collect it randomly. It may be a pain for the ROs but it might cut down on the cheating.---sorry for the drift!

[ysued]

My only complaint was the mud. Especially that weird smelly stuff on one of the berms, I'm not entirely sure what was causing that smell and quite frankly I'd rather not know... My cleats ended up in the dumpster just in case, I

I think the Funk yo smelled was the Fertilizer on the Sod!! It had that distinct smell of POO!!

The sad thing is that the inside of the Porta Potties smelled better

I ditched my boots too, they were unsafe to fly, they might have called the EPA and arrested me for traveling with Toxic Waste!! They were just NASTY!!

Y

[BritinUSA]

I chrono'ed after our last stage on the 2nd day. I think it was around 7:20pm, it was definitely cooler at that time, but I don't know if that was an issue.

[shootingchef]

my 38 super ran 171 in Dallas the week before nationals and ran 171 at nationals. No sweat!

[G-ManBart]

The Chrono at CO State was the same one as used at Nationals by the same operator. So I must assume that one or more of the top three were the cause. I'm leaning towards number 3. Not sure what the altitude is at Tulsa but the slightly thicker air may have caused the 24 fps drop that I experienced..

The very same chrono or the same brand of chrono?

I have been shooting the same batch of ammo out of my limited gun for over two years. We even ordered the powder in case lots so there was no varable there. That same batch of match ammo (we loaded 10K rounds at one time) has been fired across the same brand of chrono by the same chrono operator during at least two of my area matches (Ken has been so kind as to work our A6 match the last few years) and one other nationals (again with Ken running the very same chrono in an identical setup) and my ammo always ran no less than 170pf. Imagine my reaction when my ammo went 164.5 on the first three rounds this year. I made the pf with the next three shots but with little to spare.

A few others on my squad noticed pf less than what they state they normally run. Troy notes the chrono has been consistent on the same type of 9mm ammo as in the past. I can say that this years limited chrono was not consistent using the same type and batch of ammo I have used for the last 26-28 months. Tulsa's elevation is about 200ft higher than my home which should result in more velocity out of the same load. Humidity there was awful but it is only slightly more than a Georgia summer. Maybe it was the lights. Maybe it was the sensors. Maybe it was something else but I am convinced that my ammo has not had any breakdown in power since my chrono readings upon my return from Tusa were exactly where they were before I left.

My ammo was running 170.8 PF here at home and I went 166.1 in Tulsa. Granted, it's a lot higher here (6500') than Tulsa, but I didn't expect that much drop. Last year before Area-2 I was getting 170PF+ at home and went 168 in Mesa...it was colder in the AM when I chrono'd and a couple thousand feet lower. In Tulsa I chrono'd right around 2pm on Fri, so I thought the temp would be close to what I tested at here before the match. Needless to say I'll be adding a couple of tenths to my load before next year's Nats!

[Chuck Anderson]

My production ammo chrono'd within a couple feet of what it always does. The .40 ammo for the L10 match was another story. It was just a hair shy of 180 PF at home and dropped to 172 at the match. Not sure what the difference was. 9mm ammo chrono'd dead on and the .40 didn't. Weird.

[boz1911]

I dropped from 171 to 167, going to bump my load to 172-173. That was too close......

[Al Capizzo]

My experience at chrono this year was exactly what the chrono article in the last Front Sight said it would be.

Ken said shooting over a chrono outdoors in sunlight could run as much as 100 fps faster than shooting over the set up used at Nationals.

My ammo (factory, same lot#) ran 1390 FPS at home for 173.75 power factor. At Nationals it avg. about 1317 for 164.9 (it took avg highest of 6 rounds to make 165.4) .

It just sounds to me like "I was warned", I just wasn't paying attention. There has been a million (roughly) threads on chronoing, we just don't know of a better system.

[geezer-lock]

I read Greg’s article in Front Sight and decided to try the method recommended by “one of the older chronograph manufacturers” and take “…readings through out a given day and average your readings…”. My average of averages for my Major9 load was 169.7 pf. That was for two guns and two brass types. My reading across the chrono in Tulsa was 171.2. I went in fully confident that I would make major PF. I recommend this procedure and will use it anytime I make a significant change to the mix. Thanks again to the “Chronoman” for the heads up.

David C

[George Jones]

I went thru chrono on the morning of Day 3 of the Open match. My load chronoed at 170+, just like it has for the last two years since I started using True Blue. This includes all matches which have used dual CEDs with the infrareds. None of my matches have been at higher altitude.

I expect some powders are less tolerant of altitude and temperature variables.

As most others have observed, USSA has the potential of being a world-class facility, fully capapble of hosting a World Shoot. Unfortunately, that potential has suffered a set-back (IMO) due to the range conditions of the last two Nationals. I hope they can fix the drainage problem, without which attendance for future matches is sure to suffer. Let's give them time to deal with it and regain our confidence.

[BSeevers]

My load chronoed within 1 PF of all this years results. 5 FPS spread too.

Now without being too negative, yes, you can somewhat predict rain in OK, Its called Hurricane season and I will hopefully not have return to Tulsa in the late Aug/Sept timeframe. I think with proper drainage or graveled, maybe USSA could work in those conditions. Bad weather is something you deal with in USPSA shooting but this is a nasty, no fun, pattern.

Probably no way a July Nationals would work in Tulsa cause the well insulated shooters would not be happy in the heat. See threads on Quincy IL in July for an idea of that one. I personally would love it.

Its not the people. Its the range conditions that bite.

Edited September 21, 2008 by BSeevers

[XRe]

My load chronoed within 1 PF of all this years results. 5 FPS spread too.

Mine was in the same range and close spread, as well. It was right where I expected it to be, in the end...

[ysued]

As most others have observed, USSA has the potential of being a world-class facility, fully capapble of hosting a World Shoot. Unfortunately, that potential has suffered a set-back (IMO) due to the range conditions of the last two Nationals. I hope they can fix the drainage problem, without which attendance for future matches is sure to suffer. Let's give them time to deal with it and regain our confidence.

Very well put George!!

I honestly doubt that Tom Fie & Co really enjoy having a range with drainage problems, I bet they would want to have the best range so that all shooting disciplines would be lining up to hold their national Events there every year forever!!

Please give them a chance to do what is right for everybody!!

BTW, the Grassy area in front of stages 11 through say 15 was recently laid down when we were there for the Pro-Am, well, it's now destroyed for the most part, we managed to drive our four wheelers and Golf carts on it. Mind you , I understand that under normal circumstances that patch of grass should have been strong enough in 90 days to withstand the traffic, but it's pretty much ruined now, maybe due to the soil underneath it or whatever made it so mushy. Remember the range at the 2000 Limited in PA?? It had grass, it rained, it was OK. Maybe something can be done, I don';t really know what as I'm a Photographer not a geologist or a Civil Engineer, but I bet there's a solution out there!!

Y

[shred]

FWIW, altitude and humidity have a minimal effect on the chrono ballistics @ 10-20 feet from the muzzle. Worst-case, a flying-tuna-can bullet would only lose 1 fps-per-foot of air it bashes through. Even if you chrono at half sea-level air pressure (nb; you'd be dead without an oxygen mask), the difference would be only about 10 FPS. Most typical bullets lose about 3 fps on the way to the chrono due to air resistance. Even doubling that won't cause any major PF change.

Temperature and other variances (OAL/bullet diameter/lube/etc/etc) are where to look.

[BritinUSA]

Temperature and other variances (OAL/bullet diameter/lube/etc/etc) are where to look.

Then in my case it must have been temperature. Everything else was the same, same batch of brass, bullets, powder, primers and reloaded all at the same time. I guess IMR is a little temp sensitive. It was definitely cooler when I went through Chrono at Tulsa.

[Caspian_45]

As most others have observed, USSA has the potential of being a world-class facility, fully capapble of hosting a World Shoot. Unfortunately, that potential has suffered a set-back (IMO) due to the range conditions of the last two Nationals. I hope they can fix the drainage problem, without which attendance for future matches is sure to suffer. Let's give them time to deal with it and regain our confidence.

George has said exactly what I wanted to say....only much nicer and with tact.

I believe several board members were there to see the range conditions. Hopefully they can help insure that we won't have to deal with this again at USSA.

The competitors and staff came together to make this match work. I worked the Open/L-10 and everyone gave 100% to keep stage 18 running smoothly. I didn't venture down the line to see the other stages. I know 18 was pretty bad and heard others were way worse.

My thanks to all that kept this match above water.

I sure hope that we can return to a improved USSA range......but until the ranges can be made safer to play our game on, I may have to pass on future USPSA matches held there.

[XRe]

I know 18 was pretty bad and heard others were way worse.

You guys had it easy on 18 Definitely far worse in the match...

[XD Niner]

Temperature and other variances (OAL/bullet diameter/lube/etc/etc) are where to look.

Then in my case it must have been temperature. Everything else was the same, same batch of brass, bullets, powder, primers and reloaded all at the same time. I guess IMR is a little temp sensitive. It was definitely cooler when I went through Chrono at Tulsa.

IMR4756 is definitely inversely temperature sensitive. I hit the chrono the first thing on Saturday morning and the results were actually a little hotter than I had expected at 172PF. I know if I had tested the same rounds on Friday afternoon when it was relatively hot the readings would have been at least a good 3 PF lower.

When I chrono at home in Florida, I let the rounds bake for a while on a table in the hot sun. That always gives me conservative results. If I shoot rounds from the same batch that have been kept in a cooler they are always 2-3 PF higher.

Edited September 22, 2008 by XD Niner

[BritinUSA]

IMR4756 is definitely inversely temperature sensitive. I hit the chrono the first thing on Saturday morning and the results were actually a little hotter than I had expected at 172PF.

I think I may go back to VV N350. I never had these problems with that powder. N350 is a lot more expensive but I'm willing to pay extra for the reliability and consistency.

[Ron Rodgers]

... Remember the range at the 2000 Limited in PA?? It had grass, it rained, it was OK.

Nope - East Huntingdon has always had gravel range surfaces. Only one stage at the '00 LTD Nationals was on the grass.

Without drainage tile or other turf improvements, stone surfaces work best for us in our part of the country.

[NMBOpen]

IMR4756 is definitely inversely temperature sensitive. I hit the chrono the first thing on Saturday morning and the results were actually a little hotter than I had expected at 172PF.

I think I may go back to VV N350. I never had these problems with that powder. N350 is a lot more expensive but I'm willing to pay extra for the reliability and consistency.

I'm using VV N350, and lost about 36fps <1159 vs 1123> between Pueblo (170.4) and Tulsa (165.7). Chronoman used nominal bullet weight of 147 at Pueblo, weighed in at 147.6 in Tulsa.

[ysued]

... Remember the range at the 2000 Limited in PA?? It had grass, it rained, it was OK.

Nope - East Huntingdon has always had gravel range surfaces. Only one stage at the '00 LTD Nationals was on the grass.

Without drainage tile or other turf improvements, stone surfaces work best for us in our part of the country.

I don't remember very well, I have pictures, but I would have to find them!!

[ffl]

There are some powders that are temp sensitive. I left my ammo in the car overnight before a match one time and is was really cold. I had to change springs in my gun because the gun would not cycle. I went all the way down to 12 lb springs. the powder was Clays in a 45 Acp 200 gr. bullet.

At the IRC this year I made Chrony at 120.9 (120 min for ICORE) The set up is 2 ced's in a box. Morro bay is only a few feet above sea level and at home it is 841 plus 70% humidity. At home the same load had chrono'ed at 125.

My nephews load at home was good but he failed to make it at the IRC.

my advice is to up your loads and hope the Chrono is calibrated correctly. Better yet get several friends together with there Chrono's and test over all of them for an average.

I upped my load and this last week only just barely made 125 for our local match.

I will up it again for my USPSA loads. I just hope I can stuff enough of the powder in the case.

[BSeevers]

... Remember the range at the 2000 Limited in PA?? It had grass, it rained, it was OK.

Nope - East Huntingdon has always had gravel range surfaces. Only one stage at the '00 LTD Nationals was on the grass.

Without drainage tile or other turf improvements, stone surfaces work best for us in our part of the country.

I don't remember very well, I have pictures, but I would have to find them!!

Ron is what I would call "Very close to the source"