Bullet prices NOT falling

[zhunter]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...c=72847&hl=

[JThompson]

I know why... Edited October 24, 2008 by JThompson

[outerlimits]

Sticky prices are a different concept - once all vendors in an industry raise prices, the new price structures remain even if the cost basis driving the increase lowers and all high priced inventory has made it through the system. Prices go down only if one of the vendors decides to undercut the others to gain market share.

People understand that when it's time to sell their house "what they paid for it" is irrelevant, and the only issue is "how much will a capable buyer be willing to pay". For some reason, those same people expect vendors selling to them to operate by a different set of rules.

In terms of economic theory, it's not overpriced if you are willing to pay it.

Yup. Simple supply and demand.

yea, right-they said that about gas as well. price of oil tumbled and gas began to follow, although not as fast as we'd like. as far a bullets & brass go, i'm stucking with gouging, plain & simple.

[zhunter]

as far a bullets & brass go, i'm stucking with gouging, plain & simple.

+1

[BlackBuzzard]

Since this thread was started, lead and copper prices have continued to fall. Yet bullet makers have for the most part not budged on pricing.

One bullet supplier eliminated the "lead surcharge" and boosted the base price effectively taking down prices a whooping 2% - wow! :roflol:

But I do see some decent price reductions in some CCI products at wally world.

BB

[chuckbradley]

I have a rather large order pending at Zero so I was concerned that if I get it in that prices would fall soon after and i would get stuck so i had a talk with the owner of Zero yesterday. I was told that they were locked into old prices until the end of the year and that the Metal suppliers were assessing penalties for anybody who tried to lock in current prices on future orders. Basically they and we are being gouged by the Metal suppliers to the bullet manufacturers.

This is similar to us getting ripped on Natural gas. The current price is 6.69 an MCF. We are being charged 14.00 an MCF. We are stuck paying that price since the utility paid that for it back in July for their winter storage supplies. Yes we are all being gouged.

As its been said its quick to raise but very slow coming back down.

[shred]

Interesting, other metal suppliers are dropping prices. Copper pipe is way down and so is brass at the retail level.

All it takes is one company to sell through the old stock and start making new at a new price before the price pressure will hit.

Transport costs are already down too.

The bullet suppliers did take a while to raise prices, which was nice of them

[JD45]

Lead was around 43 cents a pound midday. The last time it was that cheap shot was 13.80 a bag at the gun club (33.00 now). To make things worse, Win. white box 9mm went up(yes up) 1.00 a box locally last week.

Bastards.

Edited December 5, 2008 by JD45

[Jman]

I see Berry's Mfg http://www.berrysmfg.com/ has dropped their lead surcharge. Maybe a good sign?

Jim

[BlackBuzzard]

I see Berry's Mfg http://www.berrysmfg.com/ has dropped their lead surcharge. Maybe a good sign?

Jim

Berrys makes a good bullet, but elimination of lead surcharge also came with an increase in base price - net difference was a 2% drop in bullet prices. Is this an impressive price cut, or not?

Meanwhile lead is down 54% from the July high while bullet prices remain at the all time high. Makes one wonder what terms like "price collusion" mean; I wont cut my prices if you don't.

Or did those in the ammo business make the same terrible business decision to hedge long at the market top like Southwest Airlines did with jet fuel, and food companies with their commodity inputs? Then only to report shocking charges in latest quarterlies to cover their wrong-way bets on futures when all commodities fell hard.

Oil and gasoline are down massively. Freeport Mcmoran, world's largest publicly traded copper producer, suspended its dividend, slashed production levels and capital expenditures due to low prices and plunging demand. Our real estate is falling hard and fast in most areas. New cars and trucks are cheaper to buy today than last year. We are in a deflationary cycle (thats not good thing!). Yet in our small recreational-shooting corner of the commodity universe, our inputs (bullets) are price unchanged.

Do bullet makers think they can ride the same pre-prez-obama, "git-em while ya can" mania that is sweeping the finished gun market?

BB

[Joe4d]

There is no conspiracy, it's just supply and demand. Bullet makers are in it to make a profit not to provide a public service. Quite a few bullet makers are running at 100 % capacity and selling everything they can make. Of course they are gonna keep raising prices as long as customers are paying. As prices rise profits rise until you hit a peak. At that point you loose enough customers that your profits decline. I dont like the prices either but I strongly defend the right of a business to charge whatever price they see fit, If I dont like it I wont buy it. Just like Berry's. I was a long time customer but their prices just got outrageous compared to moly and bulk jacketed so they lost me as a customer and Precision delta and master blaster gained one, Eventually the market will stabilize. But basic supply and demand is controlling the prices of bullets.

[JD45]

Unfortunately, everything Joe said is true. And that is what sucks about capitalism. I don't know how to fix it. Ask General Motors maybe they know.

[JThompson]

Funny that metals bought at higher price could be holding up the price... it sure didn't take two months for them to charge us more when the prices went up.

Take a look at housing and gas prices.... it's time for them to drop the prices, but the "Obama Factor" direct quote from a major bullet maker, has them so far backed up they could care less about us. They are making a ton off us and that's that.

Edited December 16, 2008 by JThompson

[Al Capizzo]

Unfortunately, everything Joe said is true. And that is what sucks about capitalism.

So far, I don't think anyone has come up with a better system.

[MoNsTeR]

I would say it's what's beautiful about capitalism. Every comfort we enjoy in modern society we owe to free exchange at market prices. It's certainly a bummer when the price of something you buy goes up, but it beats central planning.

Whenever I'm feeling down on prices I just read "I, Pencil"

http://www.econlib.org/library/Essays/rdPncl1.html

[rgkeller]

At the recent spot market highs, the copper and lead content of a 125g bullet was about four cents.

At the recent spot market close today, the copper and lead content of a 125g bullet was about one cent.

[bulm540]

I am running low but I am not buying any right now. I am waiting till next year. Hopefully there will be a glut.

Edited December 20, 2008 by bulm540

[UltraTen]

I am running low but I am not buying any right now. I am wating till next year. Hopefully there will be a glut.

+1

I'm betting on that since gas and other commodities are slowly going down, bullets will do the same once the christmas wallets start to close.

[Sean Gaines]

They are just ripping us off, hate to say it, but they know we will pay it and they are keeping thier prices high. With most of the commodity prices wayyyyy wayyyy down, and thier prices not dropping thier something up there. I know they paid the price when the prices where high(and so did we), and now that prices have come down, they have cost averaged thier metal cost, so now it just greed. By now we should have seen some sort of price reduction but the maufactures I use haven't done so.

[HSMITH]

Making the most money on a particular product that is possible is not ripping anyone off, it is good business. The bullet makers are selling everything they can make at current prices so they would be flatly stupid to lower prices. They will not do so until the demand drops enough below their capacity to affect the bottom line uncomfortably. Even if demand drops to 80% of their capacity to produce nothing will happen until the bottom line drops below what is needed for everyone to make the money they 'need' to make. Who wouldn't want to run their plant at 80% and make more money than they did 2 years ago? Discounting the price in this type of a market is absurd.

Would I like to see bullet prices come down? Absolutely, but I have the business experience to know it won't and why.

[JD45]

What ever happened to hiring more workers and creating jobs when demand increases? People with jobs have money to buy more stuff, and lots of people buying stuff with real money(not credit) helps the economy and creates even more jobs.

Even if its only seasonal, hire part timers and school kids to help boost production.

If this trend continues, the average and poor-ass people getting ripped off aren't going to have a dime left to spend. And what is Mr. wealthy business tycoon going to do then? Who will buy his products? Oh, I forgot, that is already happening to a few corporations.

P.S. - Lead was about 39 cents a pound Friday.

[Bruce]

Making the most money on a particular product that is possible is not ripping anyone off, it is good business. The bullet makers are selling everything they can make at current prices so they would be flatly stupid to lower prices. They will not do so until the demand drops enough below their capacity to affect the bottom line uncomfortably. Even if demand drops to 80% of their capacity to produce nothing will happen until the bottom line drops below what is needed for everyone to make the money they 'need' to make. Who wouldn't want to run their plant at 80% and make more money than they did 2 years ago? Discounting the price in this type of a market is absurd.

Would I like to see bullet prices come down? Absolutely, but I have the business experience to know it won't and why.

True. But the risk to current makers is: High margin profits makes the market attractive to new makers. To the big producers this threat is probably no big deal...but to someone it will be.

[LPatterson]

What ever happened to hiring more workers and creating jobs when demand increases? People with jobs have money to buy more stuff, and lots of people buying stuff with real money(not credit) helps the economy and creates even more jobs.

Even if its only seasonal, hire part timers and school kids to help boost production.

If this trend continues, the average and poor-ass people getting ripped off aren't going to have a dime left to spend. And what is Mr. wealthy business tycoon going to do then? Who will buy his products? Oh, I forgot, that is already happening to a few corporations.

P.S. - Lead was about 39 cents a pound Friday.

You answered your own questions and when you are already producing at 100% capacity, how do you increase jobs. The automobile industry tried this and the UAW created a slow down and look where they are now. Supply and demand will adjust the market over time but let's not dump on bullet manufacturers because I have seen Zero's advertised as being available again.

[JohnRodriguez]

That's a crock of S)(*$ that the metal suppliers have there prices locked in till the end of the year. I work for Freport McMoRan and if it was true that the price are locked in, then our company would have not RIF'd (reduction in force) a crap load of our work force. The bullet manufatures purchased their lead and copper supply at a high prices earlier ths year and they have to continue selling their products at higher prices to stay in the red. All it will take to lower the prices is for everybody to stop purchasing bullets for 3 to 4 month and force them to lower the prices. Our companies projection is 1.5 to 2 years till we start seeing prices go back up.

one way to save money is to start casting your own bullets. it takes 32lbs of lead to cast 1000, 230gr 45acp bullets, so your looking at about $15 with lube and power bill to cast your own, once all the equipment is paid for.

[bulm540]

exactly why I am holding out. I am delaying my purchase.