IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN

[JFD]

I have zero interest based on these rules. Just like my carry gun, these IDPA rules wouldn't allow a single shotgun or rifle that I own to be used and not a single one of these guns is set up for competition. Ease up on the "we can't be anything like USPSA" and I think you'll be a lot more successful.

I've shot several "IDPA-Like" 3-gun matches and not a single match has killed the fun with 18 round stage limits or limited rifle mag capacity to 10 rounds. Most do limit shotguns to 5+1, but have never outlawed spare ammo carried on the gun.

Rifles/shotguns are not safe on steel at 25 yards unless the scattergun is loaded with birdshot. Most club's steel isn't in very good condition for 25 yard rifle and slugs.

It may work out though. All the "competition only" guns folks will need to buy should be relatively cheap.

I say stealing the rifle/shotgun rules from a successful major 3-gun match would be a better idea and give you some hope for crossover shooters.

[shred]

I've seen two brand-new, brand-name AR500 poppers with nice large craters in them from a single shotgun slug apiece at 25 yards. Not worth it, and that doesn't even include the vast number of rifles and surplus ammo capable of doing serious damage to steel.

Talk to Iron Mike-- he's run some popular IDPA-style 3-gun matches around here for years. He's got 10-round and whatever-you-can-stuff-in-a-mag divisions and both are popular. There's a valuable lesson there.

[Trail3]

I like the idea of the west coast for IDPA 3 gun nationals! With the 10 round mag limit the match could even be held in CA.

100 -150 yards is fine for the club level. As others have stated most ranges are limited to those distances.

Our local club does limit the rifle to 10 rounds but you can use 20 or 30 round mags, just loaded to 10.

We even have lever action rifles, 30 cal carbines, pistol cal rifles, SKS's, mini 14, mini 30, Kel-Tec's, OLL AR's at our match.

Just bring what you got and have fun and shoot.

[J-Ho]

Talk to Iron Mike-- he's run some popular IDPA-style 3-gun matches around here for years. He's got 10-round and whatever-you-can-stuff-in-a-mag divisions and both are popular. There's a valuable lesson there.

+1 on Iron Mike. I've shot his carbine/pistol match as a guest. I usually like having some long range rifle thrown in but I must admit short range rifle stages are a blast.

+6,857,322 on Benny's comment. contrary to popular belief California and Massachusettes are not the center of the universe. I don't think people who use ar's or similar rifle for home defense use a 10 round only mag. Even a lot of 'em in California. Yes I understand this is a game. As a player of this game, I'm going to cry foul when I see it. I have found myself drifting away from IDPA lately, mostly because of the mag rules. IMHO this will happen even more with 3 gunners. Yes you might introduce multi gun ideas to some who would not otherwise shoot it, but then once they got a taste of longer courses and higher round counts I think you will be in danger of losing them to other types of 3 gun rules. More 3 gunners is a good thing, 3 gunners with a bad taste in their mouthes about one organization isn't really good for anyone.

[Mick]

A local club decided to have a carbine match and since most are IDPA shooters they used IDPA pistol rules. They made it more than pistol stages with a rifle and with a few exceptions it went pretty well.

One sticker was the mandatory engagment of the safety on an empty gun reload while engaging targets with a specifed number of rounds. If the gun is empty and locked back/open, there is no need to engage the safety ESPECIALLY when you WILL engage thte targets after the reload.

I think it's time for IDPA to start making some rules for 3 gun since it's so popular.

Since they're listed as "provisional" I'm guessing there is room for improvement/adjustments....

Most of the those stages needed well under 30 rounds but 30 and 20 round mags were OK.

Edited October 16, 2007 by Mick

[revchuck]

Basically, I like them pretty much as they are.

I would change: Steel shotguns targets birdshot only; slugs and rifles paper targets only; clarify HWG rifle as "7.62x39 or larger"; and clarify whether "optics" includes lazer sights.

As for the ten rounds in the mag limit - we've got two divisions each in both IDPA (SSP and ESP) and USPSA (L10 and Production) that mandate this. We can live with it.

[Gregg K]

clarify HWG rifle as "7.62x39 or larger

I think that you will have to spell out the exact calibers for HWG. If you just say "7.62x39 or larger" you will have someone with a .45 ACP carbine saying that they are HWG.

[revchuck]

clarify HWG rifle as "7.62x39 or larger

I think that you will have to spell out the exact calibers for HWG. If you just say "7.62x39 or larger" you will have someone with a .45 ACP carbine saying that they are HWG.

You're right. I hate knuckleheads like that. Make that "Minimum bullet diameter 7.62 mm/.30 caliber; minimum case length 39mm." I just checked, and that *does* exclude .30 Carbine.

[freeidaho]

I think heavy metal should not include the 7.62x39. It is a poodle shooter just like the 5.56 M16 round. Heavy metal should be 7.62x51 minimum.... kr

[Cactustactical]

The "no gun mounted ammo" rule in several of the classes is a bit odd. If you take a look at defensive shotguns in peoples closets, I imagine almost all of them will have some sort of side saddle.

The 10 round limit in magazines in rifles and shotgun tube limits would also be a personal dissatisfier and would probably prevent me from attending matches.

[benny hill]

You know, common sense & logic will go a long way if applied to the rules.

[rvb]

ok, my cents after looking at it for a couple days:

10-rounds: I can take it or leave it, I'll come shoot either way. Just a rule for a game. Makes me wonder about Rules on equip like mag pouches, shell holders, etc?

Compensators: You cannot create a popular 3-gun and by banning comps, IMO. Way too many guns coming from the factory w/ a comp (heck, even the A2 on an AR can be considered a comp), and way too many guns out there made during the ban years w/ fixed comps. Not to mention the states with goofy laws. Just make a size rule to rule out things like the big JP if you want.

Why imply 100 yds max? Why not 200? 300? more? The excuse that a lot of clubs don't have the room doesn't hold because a lot of clubs don't have shoot houses budgets for movers, etc. Heck, I've never shot at 600 yds, but that wouldn't keep me from taking my toys out to try as people love to do things they can't normally do, so I don't think you'd be scaring people away by going past 100yds.

Safety rules and gun handling? These provisional rules are very equipment focused rules but no "meat." My local idpa club holds a multi-gun from time to time using idpa targets and scoring, but no RULES for when/how to handle guns when not on the line; too many people new to practical shooting have to play w/ their guns or check out other's equipment (talking guns here! ) when not on the line. I was very happy when I was attending my first uspsa rifle match I could look in the rule book before I went to know how I was expected to handle the rifle.

Very much agree with others on using power factor, not caliber.

HWG: Again, a .45acp-only division? common.... 165pf or greater. I won't hold my breath on that change, though.

BTW, all other 3-gun divisions spell out what idpa pistol divisions are legal (SSP, ESR, etc), why not just say CDP here? Or don't CDP rules don't apply for weight, size, etc?

Concealment garment? Hopefully I won't need to go buy a trench coat. If all other idpa rules apply except those in this 3-gun section, that needs to be spelled out.

Mixed max-round-counts per string depending on gun... so is it a true "mutigun" using 1, 2, or 3 guns on the same course and in the same string? If so how do you handle the max round count? or if you're using rifle and shotty for example, you're allowed 18+10=28 round string? Or is it mandatory off-the-clock ULSC during transitions? This needs addressed, imo.

No optics in "LWG?" Bummer for me personally, I just put a dot on my 9mm SBR.

20ga allowed in SSG but not in ESG? If making a comparison to SSP/ESP the same calibers are allowed, so why not allow 20ga in ESG? Same rifle and pistol calibers from SSG are allowed in ESG.

Perhaps allowing more steel in 3-gun than regular pistol for some fun shotty stages using shot on steel?

Those are the things that jumped out at me. Perhaps it'll take off. There are enough clubs alread that run 3-gun idpa-style matches for fun (the idpa club where I shoot has a 3-gun that's pretty much heads-up run-what-ya-brung excuse to blast at targets, and has been growing in popularity).

-rvb

Edited October 16, 2007 by rvb

[Tom Freeman]

We run 3-gun side matches after our normal IDPA matches up here in Colorado.

Here are the rules.

All FR IDPA side matches are free and completely optional. Your match score will not be affected by your participation in the side match.

Rifle/Carbine. Two (three) divisions. Service and Enhanced. No caliber or capacity restrictions. Muzzle breaks allowed in both. Optics or laser devices bump you into Enhanced. Multiple optics bump you into “Outlaw” division.

Shotgun. Two (three) divisions. Pump and semi-auto. 12 or 20 gauge. Tube / tech loaders not allowed. Porting (factory or aftermarket) or tech loaders bump you into “Outlaw” division.

So easy even a dumbass can understand it.

[freeidaho]

Okay,

Here is an alternate way to divide up the equipment into divisions. I think it allows more people to shoot what they may already have. See attached spreadsheet..... kr

IDPAMultigunDivisionsAlternateProposal.pdf

[M ammo]

We run 3-gun side matches after our normal IDPA matches up here in Colorado.

Here are the rules.

All FR IDPA side matches are free and completely optional. Your match score will not be affected by your participation in the side match.

Rifle/Carbine. Two (three) divisions. Service and Enhanced. No caliber or capacity restrictions. Muzzle breaks allowed in both. Optics or laser devices bump you into Enhanced. Multiple optics bump you into “Outlaw” division.

Shotgun. Two (three) divisions. Pump and semi-auto. 12 or 20 gauge. Tube / tech loaders not allowed. Porting (factory or aftermarket) or tech loaders bump you into “Outlaw” division.

So easy even a dumbass can understand it.

We have a bunch of classes. This keeps it fair, for all who show up.

You get to compete against people that have the same type of equipment. So hey print off some certificates, it’s cheap and more people have something to hang on the refrigerator. We all like to bring something home.

Open class is just that, 1 through 4 is what they say they are, and other is if some one shows up with a bolt gun, lever action, and revolver. Ray gun, Space gun. You get my drift.

OPEN: Speed loading or Box Magazine fed semi-auto shotgun with or without optics, bi-pod

CLASS 1: Semi-automatic Rifle with optical sight, Semi-automatic Shotgun

CLASS 2: Semi-automatic Rifle with iron sights, Semi-automatic Shotgun

CLASS 3: Semi-automatic Rifle with optical sight, Pump Shotgun

CLASS 4: Semi-automatic Rifle with iron sights, Pump Shotgun

CLASS 5: All others (e.g. WWII guns,, manually operated rifle, double gun, Cowboy 3-Gun)

No engagment rules,, free style. shoot them as they become visible, to you!!!!!!!!

The rest is made fair by how you write the stage.

Shotguns start with 2 or 3 rounds, that way after the buzzer we all have the same problem.

The same can be done with rifle and pistol, start with a limited about of ammo forcing the reload to whatever the shooter can or wishes to load wile on the timer.

It works. It’s fair, and makes the shooter win not the equipment.

If you’re a good shooter, you’re not that worried about loading.

If you’re a gamer that just has to win with your 40+ pistol. 25 round shotgun and 100 rnd Bata mag. Maybe you should take up golf.

Hey did anyone read my post,,, this system works,, we have been doing it for 5+??? years now. every one gets to play with their toys.

M ammo

E-mail me and I'll send the score sheet to you

james.richard.morris@us.army.mil

[Merlin Orr]

Thats the second time with the "If you’re a gamer that just has to win with your 40+ pistol. 25 round shotgun and 100 rnd Bata mag. Maybe you should take up golf."" statement. Your opinions are duely noted. Understand they are not shared by everyone and move on......Please.

[J-Ho]

Merlin,

I've been re-reading your provisional rules and want to give them a try. Only bad thing is this IWB shotgun holster. It is really startin' to ride up! AND to top it off there's the empty side saddle.

[Buzzdraw]

Our local club, were we've shot IDPA for 10 years and IPSC for over 25 years, wanted to do a monthly defensive practical rifle event. Shotgun can follow later we decided. A few months back, we created rifle rules and launched. It has been wildly successful. Mind you this is a rifle-only event, but with much of the mind set and rules carried over from IDPA.

Our COF rules limit maximum yardage to 50, with 50% shots at 25 yds or less. Lots of partial targets or head box only shots are presented to require accuracy. Max distance for head box only target is 25 yards. Max 1 NS per 2 shoot targets. Max rounds per stage is 30, with max movement 10 yds between points (25 yd cap per stage). All rifles must be equipped with slings. Bipods or any other added piece of equipment on rifle are permitted, but they must remain on the rifle during all stages. Mag pouches must be practical and have a securing flap over the mags. We do not permit ammo to be carried on rifles.

Our general mindset is to keep the rifle and equipment practical. We've decided to not waiver in our resolve to stay practical. It should not take a $2,000 rifle to be competitive. The COF tend to take care of heavy-weight rifles or those with high-powered scopes.

Our maximum 50 yard or less stages allow our stages to fit on ordinary pistol bays, as well as to provide a quick shooter cycle time, so the match doesn't take all year to complete while also allowing them to shoot a bunch of different stages. The shooters like this challenge.

Divisions

Stock: Any rifle of any centerfire rifle caliber having “iron” sights and no modifications.

Limited: Any rifle of any centerfire rifle caliber having one (1) “Red Dot” or similar non-magnifying optics

Open: Any rifle of any centerfire rifle caliber having any optical magnifying sighting device or any other accessories

Patrol Carbine: Any rifle having a caliber generally associated with pistols

Curio and Relic: Any rifle of any centerfire rifle caliber on the ATF Curio and Relic List

We decided to totally ban the use of steel targets as a safety consideration. For this event, we use only wooden target stands. Rifle racks are provided on all stages.

Our COF often start with the first magazine light loaded, to force reloads during the stage, usually at an inconvenient point. About 18 rounds lets the shooter fire plenty of rounds per a stage and lets them have more ammo to shoot several stages during the day's match. Our COF try to test skills such as reloading (emergency and Tac/RWR), shooting while moving, use of cover, shooting from kneeling, malfunction clearing,

We use IDPA cardboard targets, Vickers scoring and IDPA "points down" scoring.

For our Classifier, we have somewhat modified the Marine's MEU-SOC qualifier to include our score break points for MA, EX, SS, MM. It seems to work just fine to sort shooters into ability categories.

We feel we've found the right mix of practicality.

[Jim Watson]

You guys are submitting all these bright ideas to B'ville or your Area Coordinator, aren't you?

Otherwise it is just like The Bard said, "sound and fury signifying nothing."

Or outlaw matches with nothing but new rules to learn if I go to another town.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Jim Watson

[GmanCdp]

where would this fit ???....

i would submitt all of these comments to your A/C and not to HQ..

if your A/C is doing his job,this would be the best way to go..more then likely you will be able to discuss it better with him...

and also you might think to invite him to your own 3 gun match for him to try it out..........

Edited October 17, 2007 by GmanCdp

[PHolsted]

where would this fit ???....

i would submitt all of these comments to your A/C and not to HQ..

if your A/C is doing his job,this would be the best way to go..more then likely you will be able to discuss it better with him...

and also you might think to invite him to your own 3 gun match for him to try it out..........

Well until I seen the comp it looks like ESG...... Take the Comp off and your good to go in SSG!!!!!

[benny hill]

As I see it now, they want people to contrate more on reloading the weapons then shooting them. That's cool as I load really well.

[9x45]

it's a secret....IDPA will continue to have the pistol nationals on the EAST coast...and will have the 3 GUN NATIONALS on the west coast..

Now we are talking!!!!

Hurry up and get the rules approved, published and sanction the first annual IDPA 3 Gun Nationals at Norco, CA(or Palm Springs, or Pala, or Piru, or Bakersfield, even Vegas will do....)

[Cactustactical]

it's a secret....IDPA will continue to have the pistol nationals on the EAST coast...and will have the 3 GUN NATIONALS on the west coast..

Now we are talking!!!!

Hurry up and get the rules approved, published and sanction the first annual IDPA 3 Gun Nationals at Norco, CA(or Palm Springs, or Pala, or Piru, or Bakersfield, even Vegas will do....)

Aren't the possession of AR-15's and high capacity magazines ( larger thna 10 rounds) illegal in California due to their strange Assault Weapons bans?

[p99shooter]

You can have an AR-15 under three circumstances:

- You had it before the ban

- You are a peace officer that is authorized to by your department to have it off duty

- You built one using an "Off-List Lower," or OLL, without a pistol grip or flash hider. The DOJ banned specific manufacturers of AR-15 lowers, like DPMS and Bushmaster. If you can find someone that makes lowers that's not on the list, you can build an AR-15, as long as it doesn't have the banned features, like a pistol grip or flash hider. See this thread for pics of an OLL build AR-15 (a pretty nice one too!).

As far as hi-caps, if you had them before the ban, you are good to go. It's a no-no to have them post-ban.