IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN

[J-Ho]

I've shot hundreds and hundreds of rounds at steel with .223 and .308 at 25 yards and sometimes closer. There's a chance to pick up some shrap but I've never seen anyone take a richocet.

I have; and my buddy is lucky he can use one of his fingers after a richocet off an 8" plate at 50 yds severely damaged tendons in his hand. The plate was new, 3/4" thick, and AR500. The round was 223 at approx 3000 fps. I'll shoot rifle steel at 100 yds all day, but 25 yds is dangerous without frangible ammo.

+100. The chances of being hurt by a richocet are pretty low, being hurt even lower, but the chance of needing a gun on the street are probably even lower. I still carry.

MINUS 100

I took a ricochet from a 38 super open gun, most of a 125 gr zero FMJ, and it's still in my arm.

Here's a little education for the doubtful from the MGM website. Remember when they reference "their steel", they are talking about AR500. That is not what most clubs are shooting at. Most clubs do not have rifle grade steel.

MGM FAQ

How close can I shoot steel?

/.../

The MAIN reason bullet fragments hit people is because the surface of the target is damaged. Damage is usually the result of 1) the target was shot with a rifle (or shotgun slug, or .44 Mag -or larger-), or 2) the steel was too soft to be a satisfactory target, in which case, traditional pistol rounds could have damaged it, or 3) any combination of the above. If the target face is smooth, bullets hit it and splatter like an egg thrown against a wall. If it is dimpled or cratered, bullets hit it and ricochet out of the craters in any direction. I personally know of bullet fragments from a high powered rifle that flew back over 200 yards, to then hit the wall behind the shooter. (That was NOT an MGM target!!) Damaged steel should note be used, even with extreme caution, regardless of the distance the shooter is from the target.

Can I shoot my rifle at your targets?

Of course, that is what many of them are designed for! MGM targets can withstand an incredible amount of wear, but even Armor plate can be abused. Every shot from a centerfire rifle at 100 yards is going to put a visible mark on the target. We reccomend shooting the target at this distance a couple of times so you can determine if the mark is acceptable to you before moving it closer. These small marks are what cause the bullet frags to come back...

Shotgun slugs will also significantly mark the steel, and are not recommended at distances less than 50 yards. Steel shot should NEVER be used with steel targets. Buck shot of any size will not damage the steel, any more than twelve .38 caliber pistol bullets fired individually will. 00Buck is fine.

Steve,

That's my point. The CHANCES are very low. But it can and does happen. I'm not gonna tempt fate. Close steel and rifle don't mix.

[Merlin Orr]

OK... Points of difference on a particular area of the Provisional Rules. Valid concerns and opinions to be sure - from all parties. Lets agree to disagree on this particular point and move along.

[KevinC]

1. Stage designs can make mag changes mandatory.

2. Limit the length of the barrel and extension on the shotgun if you want to limit the number of rounds in the shotgun.

3. Ten round mags were the result of the ban. The ban sunsetted and so should the ten round rule!!

4. The match should determine the round count per stage, not the rules!

5. Pistol caliber carbines are still pistol calibers! A 9mm storm will not flash a 10" flash target target at 100 yards!

6. Do not reinvent the wheel, Keep IT Simple Stupid!!!

Just a few comments from a 3 gun shooter.

[kdmoore]

2. Limit the length of the barrel and extension on the shotgun if you want to limit the number of rounds in the shotgun.

That was true for the primative state shotguns were in before the Saiga12 came along ...

<===See my avatar

[Chills1994]

De-sporterize that thing already. Turn it back into that pistol gripped badness that Kalashnikov intended it to be. Slap some 10 round mags in her with some color coded electrical tape around 'em. One color for the slugs, one color for the birdshot, and one color for the buckshot.

Would a SPAS-12 be legal then?

AA-12?

As far as people harping on the "pistol" part of the "International Defensive Pistol Association", these new 3 gun rules could be the result of people like Clint Smith and Jeff Cooper, I think, whose advice is:

"a handgun is what you use to fight your way back to a rifle, the gun you should have had in the first place".

Seems more and more these experts are advocating the use of the carbine in a defensive situation.

(critically cynical thinking mode on)

Then again, the purpose of every medium is to sell you something.... so maybe they are just saying that to sell more guns and to continue bringing in sponsor money to pay for their TV programs.

(mode off)

Yeah, the 10 round mag limit does suck, but IDPA:

1. Doesn't want an equipment race

2. Wants you to practice reloads on the clock

Trigger time is trigger time, I say. And it's all good.

[benny hill]

O.K. merlin, you knew it was coming, We are in 2007, not 1995 when we had a mag. ban. EVERYONE has 30 rd mags except someone in ark. I guess. 10 rds in an AR is barley getting it warmed up before reloading. If you want a reload, put it in the stage. Please come out of the stone ages on this. Almost everyone has a 8 rd tube on their shotguns unless you are to cheap to buy one. 18 rds max on a stage may be ok with a pistol but with 3 guns it is crazy. We are here to have fun & SHOOT. This game has nothing to do with real life senerios. Let's shoot.

[scirocco38s]

O.K. merlin, you knew it was coming, We are in 2007, not 1995 when we had a mag. ban. EVERYONE has 30 rd mags except someone in ark. I guess. 10 rds in an AR is barley getting it warmed up before reloading. If you want a reload, put it in the stage. Please come out of the stone ages on this. Almost everyone has a 8 rd tube on their shotguns unless you are to cheap to buy one. 18 rds max on a stage may be ok with a pistol but with 3 guns it is crazy. We are here to have fun & SHOOT. This game has nothing to do with real life senerios. Let's shoot.

Benny, I knew you would get it. 3-gun is about fun and entertainment as is Ipsc and Idpa and all the other disciplines. It is not training other than the trigger time and if Idpa thinks this will keep the arms race down, they are wrong as most people who shoot Idpa in esp and cdp are spending as mnuch on single stacks as we are on doublestacks in ipsc. Once someone figures out the best setup for the most competitive advantage, then thats where everyone will start to gravitate to and there goes your arms race. We have several proven formulas for 3-gun that work and work well. The only reason Idpa is different is for the same reason they structure everything different from Ipsc. They purposely do or say or name everything differently. I know around here we have had a version of 3-gun that was just like this and it is failing miserably, because once guys shoot another 3-gun with normal mag capacity and 35-40 round stages they dont want to shoot the other anymore.

[Merlin Orr]

Please keep the comments in regard to the rules. Comments regarding IDPA are not needed.

Thanks.

[Run n Gun]

This doesn't sound very interesting to me, BUT, with the ten-round limits a guy might be somewhat competitive with his $100 SKS or even a Garand. More people might just come out and play.

Ed

[iainmcphersn]

Hmm, these are MULTI gun rules and not just 3 GUN rules so I expect there will be transitions.

If so, I would recommend raising the max round count. Perhaps the present 18 round count MAX should apply to single gun stages and could be increased by 18 rounds for each additional gun in a multigun scenario.

I think of IDPA as very accuracy oriented and think that an outer limit of 100 yards for rifle will be very limiting. Certainly shotgun slugs at 100 yards are a completely different skill level than a rifle shot at 100 yards. Perhaps a 50-75 yard limit on slugs and 150-200 yards on rifle would be more in line with the capabilities of the weapon and shooter.

With the proposed rules I can still see the potential for good stage designs. A pistol-rifle course where you "fight" your way to your rifle and engage some challenging targets (small plates or lots of hard cover) with the rifle sounds promising.

I would expect that there would be a minimum power factor for each division similar to the way IDPA pistol divisions are defined.

Sounds like it could be fun.

John

[ima45dv8]

Merlin has asked quite nicely to keep ths discussion focused on the proposed Multi-Gun rule set.

Let's save the "what's wrong with IDPA and/or 10 round limits" for some other time (and place).

Thanks...

[p99shooter]

I'm interested in seeing which way the ruling on compensators goes. Several guns the fit in SSG, ESG, or even HWG (the SOCOM II comes to mind) come stock with a compensator. My opinion: Allow compensators on rifles in all divisions.

I also paid close attention to how the round counts are specified: 18 rounds PER STRING. A multi-gun course of fire could have 50 rounds total, as long as it is broken in strings.

Edited to comply with requests made by moderators.

Edited October 15, 2007 by p99shooter

[detonics]

First, I would like to say thank you for all of the constructive comments posted thus far. This rule set was distributed to the ACs for IDPA that attended the 07 IDPA National Championship. Those that were not there will be getting their rule set later this week or early next at the latest. Though Merlin labeled them provisional (Thank you Merlin for getting this out there), These rules were really more a starting point than anything else. I set these with the idea to get feedback from the shooting community. The AC's will talk with people in their areas and obtain more feedback. We do learn from our mistakes, even if it sometimes takes a while.

Some things to keep in mind when commenting on these rules. I do read everything here but if you are just taking a shot at busting IDPA's chops, I will just ignore what you have to say. I do realize that USPSA has a wealth of experience to draw from and i intent to learn from it where I can, but we are not out to create an identical rule set. There is a place for both of us and we can, and in fact do, get along most of the time. I am not out to steal three gun shooters, I am out to find and encourage more. Our "black" rifles take a beating as it is, it would be nice to have more people playing with them and supporting them so that we may keep them.

Please remember that IDPA is basically about the defensive use of a gun. Yes, i know it is a game but that is what it is based on. We therefore are trying to keep the distance down. Also, most clubs have a 100 yard range, clubs with further distances become rarer as the yardage increases. I am open to suggestions though, particularly those from those that have served in the sand box. I would like to here about average engagement distances.

As for the ten round thing, Yes i am fully aware that the ban has sunset. There are however places that can't have more than ten rounds. Please also keep in mind that i am trying to find a balance that will work for our foreign members as well. There are a number of foreign countries that are in the same boat as the Peoples Republic of California.

There have been some spot on ideas shown here already, I hope that it can continue to be that way.

Thank you,

Robert Ray

IDPA Headquarters

[Jaxshooter]

I have never seen a steel target that could stand up to slugs or rifles at those ranges. If it is made let me know where I can buy it.

This is not meant to be a smart a@# remark, if it is available I would seriously like to buy some.

[PHolsted]

I have never seen a steel target that could stand up to slugs or rifles at those ranges. If it is made let me know where I can buy it.

This is not meant to be a smart a@# remark, if it is available I would seriously like to buy some.

Well I guess the best question is what do you consider "could stand up to"? 1/2 or 5/8 AR500 steel will take a beating for a long even under the stress of slugs. I have some 3/8 AR500 I have been shooting at with 223 and 308 at for the last few years and it is still in great shape. And all of these were at 100 yards and less. I also have some 1/4 AR500 that I have shot to. it has a few dings in it and is concaved a little but still in good enough shape to shape pistol at.

About the only problem I have found is if the steel is cut with a torch the sides are a little week. I try to get my steel cut with a water jet to keep it's strength.

just my .02

[PHolsted]

There have been some spot on ideas shown here already, I hope that it can continue to be that way.

Thank you,

Robert Ray

IDPA Headquarters

Good stuff Robert I'm just glad to see us going in the right direction and to get something on paper.

Thanks

[Scooter]

One of the local clubs around here already do a IDPA-like multi-gun match with some of the same rules posted like 10 rounds max in rifle mag and 5 rounds in shotgun. It usually draws a pretty big crowd from the IDPA side who don't shoot IPSC.

[scirocco38s]

Merlin has asked quite nicely to keep ths discussion focused on the proposed Multi-Gun rule set.

Let's save the "what's wrong with IDPA and/or 10 round limits" for some other time (and place).

Thanks...

The comments arent about what is wrong with idpa as it is a different game and I accept it for what it is as do many others who shoot it. And the 10 round limit is the main thing we are focussed on in this conversation.(at least in the rifle, as I would expect the pistol to stay at 10)

First, I would like to say thank you for all of the constructive comments posted thus far. This rule set was distributed to the ACs for IDPA that attended the 07 IDPA National Championship. Those that were not there will be getting their rule set later this week or early next at the latest. Though Merlin labeled them provisional (Thank you Merlin for getting this out there), These rules were really more a starting point than anything else. I set these with the idea to get feedback from the shooting community. The AC's will talk with people in their areas and obtain more feedback. We do learn from our mistakes, even if it sometimes takes a while.

Some things to keep in mind when commenting on these rules. I do read everything here but if you are just taking a shot at busting IDPA's chops, I will just ignore what you have to say. I do realize that USPSA has a wealth of experience to draw from and i intent to learn from it where I can, but we are not out to create an identical rule set. There is a place for both of us and we can, and in fact do, get along most of the time. I am not out to steal three gun shooters, I am out to find and encourage more. Our "black" rifles take a beating as it is, it would be nice to have more people playing with them and supporting them so that we may keep them.

Please remember that IDPA is basically about the defensive use of a gun. Yes, i know it is a game but that is what it is based on. We therefore are trying to keep the distance down. Also, most clubs have a 100 yard range, clubs with further distances become rarer as the yardage increases. I am open to suggestions though, particularly those from those that have served in the sand box. I would like to here about average engagement distances.

As for the ten round thing, Yes i am fully aware that the ban has sunset. There are however places that can't have more than ten rounds. Please also keep in mind that i am trying to find a balance that will work for our foreign members as well. There are a number of foreign countries that are in the same boat as the Peoples Republic of California.

There have been some spot on ideas shown here already, I hope that it can continue to be that way.

Thank you,

Robert Ray

IDPA Headquarters

The comments here (at least by me are not to bust on idpa) and yes uspsa may have a wealth of knowledge about shooting but not where 3-gun is concerned. If you look at the major 3-gun matches uspsa is nowhere to be seen in involvement, the organizers may use uspsa rules for the most part but the rules are unique to the 3-gun world. You look at the IM3G or the Fort Benning Match or DPMS or the other large matches run by people like Kyle Lamb or the NC Recon they use a mixture of rules, some require 2 hits on target anywhere or 1 a zone hit, others penalize you for misses and no shoots more than others, 1 match even uses the FTDR. We ground hot weapons and pickup others and continue the stage, we shoot flash targets from multiple positions, these are all things that uspsa wouldnt let you do until very recently. Of all the 3-gun that is shot the non affilliated programs are the best because they dont get mired up in the BS of trying to be different just to be different. My comments are based solely on you would never have an AR15 loaded with a 10 round mag unless you cant get 20,30,40 round mags. Others have posted in here that if you want to make a reload that is fine but let the person reload into a 30 round mag and continue. Especially if he starts shooting flash targets at distance. Scoring paper at that distance is time prohibitive so that is not an option if you want to make the match run effeiciently. The other ideas of 18 round stage max is not a good idea either as the shotgun stage should be at least 12-14 rounds so everyone reloads the shotgun, and that is where the match is lost, by the ones who cannot load a shotgun quickly.(I am one of thos by the way) So if you have a 10-15 round pistol with another 12 rounds of shotgun you are already at 22-27 rounds and then add in a rifle for all three and you get what most of us are after. Like I keep saying it is about entertainment, and I do run a monthly match and I listen to what the shooters want, and in 3-gun it is about shooting and shooting alot. I understand that the rules are provisional, and that is why discussion is important. Uspsa came out with proposed rule changes for next year and as soon as they were released, the people who shoot and care came out and let their opinions be known, and they are the ones who support and shoot your sport month in and month out.

[benny hill]

Robert, about 10% of the shooters live in the ban area's & 90% don't. Don't make the 90% give up their rights to satisfy the 10%. The 10% can borrow our stuff when they shoot with us & we can down load ours IF we ever shoot with them.

[scirocco38s]

Robert, about 10% of the shooters live in the ban area's & 90% don't. Don't make the 90% give up their rights to satisfy the 10%. The 10% can borrow our stuff when they shoot with us & we can down load ours IF we ever shoot with them.

Thank you Benny.

[p99shooter]

Thanks for posting Robert. Like Scooter said, there is a lot of interest in an IDPA-based multi-gun in the Sacramento region. There's usually a shotgun side-match after our pistol match, and there are always people at the range showing off their OLL build, mini-14, or Kel-Tec.

I think the 100 yard limit is also a good idea. Not only does it allow the game to be played at more ranges, it keeps the costs for participants down. You wouldn't have to spend $700+ for an optic that will work between 0 and 100 yards.

[GmanCdp]

it's a secret....IDPA will continue to have the pistol nationals on the EAST coast...and will have the 3 GUN NATIONALS on the west coast.. ...

at least it's a start/guideline for clubs to use....

[shooting for M]

Seems like lots of good info and opinions here. Some more suggestions if I may, The 100yd limit might keep from scaring people away. Lots of people have never shot beyond 100, in many places it's almost impossible.

About the magazine limit, I don't know where I stand I see both side of the arguement, but the comment about Garands and SKS's being able to play sounds pretty cool, maybe not competitive, but maybe to break it up a bit. Maybe a 10 round limit in one class. You can alomst get rid of the high cap advantage with movement every 10 rounds.

Something else people might want to think about is the average age/health of a lot of IDPA shooters. A lot of IDPA shooters are people that started in IPSC early on and either didn't keep up or didn't want to keep up anymore. Yes, there are also a lot of IDPA shooters that can teach a lot of IPSC shooters a thing or two also, please don't read anything into this, or if I'm way off base, tell me to $%* off. This is not a slam in any way, I'd shoot IDPA if I could get to that range more than 2 sundays a month.

Again just my $.02

Jason

[Mike P]

I shoot IDPA pretty regularly and enjoy and support it. I also enjoy shooting multi-gun, and could support a multi-gun IDPA format, but not with magazine restrictions. Most "defense" shotguns come with a capacity of more than 6 rounds and a side saddle, even those made in Arkansas. There is no good reason to restrict the mag capacity of rifles to get a reload, just mandate a tac load or require the competitor to start with a downloaded mag. You can do either one and already be within the rules of IDPA. Comps? Well, I think they're great, but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me, the 10/6 rifle shotgun limit though most likely would be. I'll wait until I see one before making a final judgement.

Mike

[itento]

I would like to see that you could have an optic sight on ESG shotgun. Rationale- its allowed for rifle shooting out to 100 yds. Some of us with aging sight need some sort of aid. While I could probably get by with my shooting glasses that are focused on the front sight of my pistol, in a defensive situation, I probably won't have acces to them where I would to a mounted reflex sight (that's already on my shotgun). I don't think this would start any big "arms race" since many of my friends already have some non-stock sighting mechanism on their shotgun, be it low power scope or reflex sight.