revchuck

@regor - I recommend that you re-check your loads over the chrono. My results above (5.5 grains giving 960 fps) agree with other folks' results with the same charge. The only manual I have that shows Unique in .40 S&W is Speer #14, and it gives 6.0 as the starting load and 6.7 as the max, using jacketed bullets. Using Bayou 180-grain coated LTCs over 5.8 grains of CFE-P (similar burn rate as Unique) gave 980 fps.

I tried a load from an old Lyman manual that was designated as a .38/44 Heavy Duty load, meant to be used only in N frame .38s. Six grains of Unique in .38 Special brass under a 170-grain LSWC gave 1077 fps from my 4" 681. I loaded it for use in my 28-2. Ain't no way I'd ever use this in one of my K frame .38s.

I don't have an answer to your question, but I wish I had a gun room so well stocked that I could lose a couple of cases of ammo and not realize it. I've got some .44 Mag BT too, and plan on shooting it up this winter so I can use the brass.

How cleanly does it burn? I'm really interested in BE-86 as an all-around powder.

@zzt - Each revolver is a law unto itself. Velocities from load manuals come from pressure guns with minimum-dimension chambers and barrels, and the barrels tend to be longer than those used in competition, so they're usually higher than we get from our guns. The only velocity that matters is the one from the gun we're shooting, measured by a chronograph. I've got nine four-inch .38/.357 revolvers; seven of them will give velocities for a given load within about a 25 fps window, the two others are about 80-90 fps slower. All of them are within spec, it's just the way things are.

@Coltparch - I shot IDPA SSR for several years when the power factor was 125. For much of that time, I used TG and it worked; it made the PF and it was decently accurate. The big downside with TG is that it's a very hot-burning powder. That's pretty much irrelevant when shooting an autoloader but matters when shooting a revolver. This was brought home to me when practicing Bill Drills - the cylinder and the frame and barrel around the forcing cone got really hot, really quickly. I found a cooler burning powder (Solo 1000) and worked up a load and of course, that powder was discontinued. I stopped shooting competitively soon after due to job-related travel and am just getting back into it. Hodgdon's website shows both standard pressure and +P data that make the power factor, as does Alliant's (though here you have to click on the products tab, choose handgun powders, and search for each powder). Using 158-grain bullets is a good idea due to data availability and recoil. I recommend you stick with coated lead bullets since they have all the benefits of lead bullets and none of the downsides, plus you'll get higher velocities with a given powder charge than with plated or jacketed bullets. Another thing to take into consideration is how much residue is left behind after firing. Again, this isn't that big a deal with autoloaders but can really mess up a revolver shooter when it stays in a chamber or gets under the ejector star. Less is better. TG, 231, Bullseye and S1000 worked okay for me here. Unique may or may not work. Some of the newer powders look promising in this regard, but I haven't had a chance to try them so hopefully, others will chime in. Good luck in your quest!

I just chronographed some loads I made up a few years back. 5.5 grains of Unique under a 180-grain RNL with a WSP primer at 1.12" ran 960 fps from my M&P 40, PF is 172.8

@fmiller - If you want to get ~1300 fps from a 4" .357 using 158-grain bullets, you're going to have to go with either coated or plain lead...or ignore available load data. I haven't tried it with plated bullets. It ain't gonna happen with jacketed, at least chronographed from a real gun. I haven't played with a 627. Assuming the cylinders are the same length as the 27/28, you're going to have to stick with the industry-standard OAL which is based on the cylinder length of the original .357 Magnum that came out in 1935. If your bullets have a crimp groove, crimping .357 brass in that crimp groove will usually give you the right OAL. I haven't tried it, but my guess is that the Bayou 160 RN would be a poor match in .357 brass due to its long, tapering ogive. My first choice would be their 158 SWC.

@matteekayJust FYI, my old IDPA revolver load was (IIRC) 4.3 gr. of TG under a 158 gr. LRN or a bit more under a Berry's 158 plated RN. Both loads ran ~830 fps from a 4" barrel. While both loads were accurate, they heated up the cylinder really quickly. This wasn't a problem during a match, but during high-round-count practice sessions, it was definitely an issue. Additionally, the lead bullet loads smoked like a freight train.

Thanks! Now I just need to find some more powder...

Steve - From my original post:

I've got a case of Federal 205s that I bought several years ago and haven't used. I'm about out of small pistol primers. Would the 205s work in unmodified M&Ps? The loads would be 9x19 minor and .40 S&W major. Thanks!

^^^+1. Clays and 147 grain LFPs is the only 9x19 combination that I've had tumbling bullets from. Not worth the trouble when almost any powder works better.

For a 124 grain cast bullet: RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 - start 4.7/1083 fps; max 5.2/1166 fps, from a 4" S&W M39. Ken Waters Pet Loads - 5.5/1204 fps from a 4" Luger. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook - start 4.3/940 fps; max 5.3/1135 fps, from a 4" barrel in a universal receiver. +1 on getting a chrono to check how they run in your gun! Five grains should get you in the ballpark of where you want to be.

Nope. You can shoot 200 grain bullets from a .38 Special at 600 fps and they'll be stable, and that's with a slower twist. A 160 at Minor is right in the sweet spot for .38 Special, and it works in 9x19 as well. If 160 grain bullets are tumbling from a 9x19, it's a load development problem rather than a bullet weight problem. FWIW, I've had this happen to me with 147 grain LFPs and Clays; just a bad combination of components.

I've got two 75Bs and a 92 Brigadier. I don't remember any of them jamming. I find I shoot the 75Bs slightly better in DA than the Beretta, SA is a wash. Combined round count for the CZs is ~10k, with ~5k for the Beretta.

Did you shoot at Spangdahlem (sp?)? We may have crossed paths. By then I was shooting either my Gubmint Model or a Walther P1.

Hornady's 7th Edition manual lists 1.05" OAL for their 124 grain FP. I got a thousand of these on sale a few years ago and loaded them at this length and they ran fine in my M&P9, CZ-75Bs and Beretta 92 Brigadier. Your bullets may have a different nose profile, but should run fine at a shorter-than-RN OAL.

I've got a set of Rydons with prescription inserts I use for road cycling. I really like them but I've noticed that in high humidity - as when the ambient temperature and the dew point are the same - they tend to fog, and having four air-glass surfaces makes it worse. I haven't found a good anti-fog for them, though there well be one out there. I haven't tried them for shooting.

Mine was a Star BM. I had two factory mags and two Brand X of some kind. Learned a lot with that pistol. First match was at Tombstone, AZ in 1982. Traded it in on a Series 70 Gubmint Model that I still have.

Titegroup with jacketed or plated, 231 for lead. I haven't tried Solo 1000 or American Select, but they might work well too.

Yeah, but what's the chance of making 165 power factor with it?

Unless you're willing to try a medium speed powder, I'd give up on this idea. I flame-cut the top strap of my M67 using TG loaded with 158 grain RNL to the old SSR PF, I hate to think what it'd do at .357 pressures. Loading Clays with a 158 grain RNL to the old 125 PF required exceeding +P pressures, at least in my guns. I have no experience with VV320. I used 6.8 grains of Unique under a 158 grain RNL in .357 Mag brass in ESR with my M681. Easily made the PF, accurate, and clean at those pressures. I'd go with something similar, or shoot SSR. No way I'd use those powders with a 180 grain bullet at Major pressures, especially not in a K frame.

Conventional wisdom is that a revolver's chamber throats should be about .001 larger than barrel bore diameter, and that the bullets should be sized to match the throats. IIRC, S&W made a batch of 625s with undersized throats that caused problems with lead bullets. Early M25-5s in .45 Colt typically had .455-.456 throats matched with .452 barrels and would lead badly with bullets sized .452, but worked fine with bullets sized to match the throats. My experience is that uncoated swaged bullets can work well at .38 Special pressures. I once burned through 700+ rounds of 158 grain Zero RNLs over 4.1 grains of TG in my S&W M67 in one day at a training course with no leading. Took about an hour with Break-Free and 0000 steel wool to get the powder residue off, though. Generic hard cast bullets sized to .358 usually work okay, too. Hard cast bullets sized .357 are a crap shoot. I've shot ESP in IDPA with my M681 and .357 Mag with generic hard cast .358 158 grain RNLs at Major (6.8 grains of Unique, ~1140 fps IIRC) with no leading problems. No powder residue problems at that pressure, either.

A 1:20 twist will stabilize a 147 grain bullet with no problem. Whether it's accurate is a function of the load and the quality of the gun's build.