IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN

[p99shooter]

And again, folks are forgetting that the I in IDPA stands for "INTERNATIONAL". It's not just about CA, MA, HI vs. states in the USA that don't have a ban. IDPA has to look at the total membership around the world, not just the U.S.

Another thing that people don't seem to be considering is the disparity between shooters who had their gear pre-ban, and got to keep it, versus a new shooter. In CA for example, if you had your 30 rounders before the ban, you could keep them. As a new shooter, you can (legally) only get 10 rounders. If there is no 10-round limit, how can new shooters possibly be competitive, or even have a level playing field? I'm sure that other states that still have a hi-cap ban had grandfather clauses too. So, the problem is NOT just between states, it is WITHIN states too. THAT is the whole point.

So, how do you solve it? Impose a 10-round limit. I also accept that shooters could have hi-caps, and doing so would put them in a different division (like the difference between Limited 10 and Limited). But, how should IDPA do it? Should they double the number of divisions, one each for low-cap / hi-cap? Too many divisions then. If we lump all hi-caps into a single division, say an "open" type division that allows multiple optics and such, then guess what you have: EQUIPMENT RACE. All the hi-cap shooters will have to get all the gear to be competitive. So, you either get a sport with 8 or 10 divisions, or one with 4 divisions, with no incentive to use hi-caps anyway. LOSE - LOSE situation.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys that are screaming about a proposed 10-round limit in IDPA multi-gun are over in the USPSA forums (on this site and others) suggesting that Production should remove the 10-round limit? What do you guys have to say about Limited 10? Should it be changed to Limited 15? Should Production lose the 10-round limit rule?

If you're not, post your logic as to why USPSA should retain those limits in their rules, but IDPA MUST accept 30 round magazines in their rules.

[M ammo]

Cost has nothing to do with it, an AR 30 rd from brownells ib $13.00 & an 8 rd. ext. on a shotgun is about $60.00. If that is to much, you can not afford to shoot anyway. I have beat this horse to death so I will just stick to matches that are built on common sense & logic instead of the lowest denomanator.

Benny, we tried to make them understand, but it wont work.

Guys, lets try and stay on point here. Some agree with 10 round max, some don't. I have done both and personally prefer full mags but I am looking not just for the lowest common denominator, but for what will bring in the most new shooters. Guys that already shoot some type of 3 gun will continue to do so. I am looking to find new shooters. If I can do that and entertain existing 3 gunners, I will.

There is one big thing to remember, IDPA reaches into a pool of people with a defensive mind set. Our last pole showed that 80 percent of members surveyed have a CCW permit. This is our core group. While USPSA has made good strides in appealing to these people (Production and Single Stack), they continue to miss bringing these people into the shooting sports. Invariably when I see an ad about USPSA, not necessarily from their HQ, it shows a Open gun. This intimidates some and convinces others that USPSA is not for them. IDPA simply reaches these people better. After learning a little, some shoot both and some move to USPSA entirely. We on the other hand get flow from the USPSA side from people that find USPSA is not the thing for them. This is good for both sports. Diversity helps cause the growth of the shooting sports as a whole. This is not about us VS them, we should be a unified as gun owners.

I hope that we see past the differences of the two sports and find a balance of defensive and entertainment that works for IDPA.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

No , when you look at an uspsa ad you look for the things that you say intimidate others. I dont know why you continue to compare to uspsa as most 3-gun is not uspsa sanctioned.(especially the successful ones) And if most of your shooters have a defensive mindset the why would they try and defend themselves and their families with 10 round magazines. True 3-gunners have a different mindset than what idpa is founded on, as a pistol can be defensive but a rifle is more offensive in nature as fewer items stop it that do pistol rounds.

Why not just make the rules to follow what is allowed in the majority of the states, but understand that if you live or shoot in a 10 round state that the game then follows those rules. Why does the CA ban(or any ban for that matter) have to effect me in a free state? Set the rules for the majority of the counrty and understand that in some places you have to limit it to 10 rounds. If that state holds a major match, then you decide if you want to attend or not based on that. Very simple and everyone is happier. If you live in a ban state and want to shoot a match out of state I'm sure people will let you borrow some mags.

You understand this better than the others do.

Guys, lets try and stay on point here. Some agree with 10 round max, some don't. I have done both and personally prefer full mags but I am looking not just for the lowest common denominator, but for what will bring in the most new shooters. Guys that already shoot some type of 3 gun will continue to do so. I am looking to find new shooters. If I can do that and entertain existing 3 gunners, I will.

There is one big thing to remember, IDPA reaches into a pool of people with a defensive mind set. Our last pole showed that 80 percent of members surveyed have a CCW permit. This is our core group. While USPSA has made good strides in appealing to these people (Production and Single Stack), they continue to miss bringing these people into the shooting sports. Invariably when I see an ad about USPSA, not necessarily from their HQ, it shows a Open gun. This intimidates some and convinces others that USPSA is not for them. IDPA simply reaches these people better. After learning a little, some shoot both and some move to USPSA entirely. We on the other hand get flow from the USPSA side from people that find USPSA is not the thing for them. This is good for both sports. Diversity helps cause the growth of the shooting sports as a whole. This is not about us VS them, we should be a unified as gun owners.

I hope that we see past the differences of the two sports and find a balance of defensive and entertainment that works for IDPA.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

Robert, you hit the nail on the head.

You don’t have to cater to the lowest denominator. (Larry the cable guy made millions last year)

But a new 3 gunner , (is the guy will end up buying the Benny Hill upper and the 8 round Tube)

Is just a bit intimidated when he shows up to a match.

trying to get new shooters to the range is hard enough, new guys have saved up money, and bought the best equipment they could, afford and that they had the knowledge to buy, and they come to a match thinking, I'm ok, I have pretty good stuff,

They get to the match and look at the toys , others are shooting have,, and see that they are way!! out classed. So the first thing, the new guy sees is that he can't play, with these guys,

Ego busted, Will this shooter come back?

We need that new 3 Gunner. If this sport is to survive.

I have had many new 3 gunners use my equipment, until they can buy their own equipment. just to get them started. That way they can spend their hard earned dollars on what they need, not what they think they need.

Treat them, like friends, and they will be your friend.

No he didnt, he danced around it and said the same thing.

When have we discussed anything here other than round count and magazine capacity. Most of the guys that shoot hot high end guns from jp and Benny cant shoot any better than they could when they had their off the rack DPM or Rock River. If you want to keep the equipment cost down that is fine but magazines and round copunt have nothing to do with that. One of the local shooters that competes very well in three gun is shooting a stock bushmaster with a eotech, nothing facy there, not even a free floated forearm. His shotgun is a stock 110 with a mag tube extension and his pistol is a s&w M&P. He doesnt have any of the flash and spanks everyone because he knows where he shoot vs his aim point. In other words he practices. He doesnt have 40 round pistol mags nor 100 round betas, but he hits where he aims and he reloads a shotgun well. He uses 30 round mags except for when he goes prone and then its 20. Most 3-gunners dont look down upon other competitors and are always willing to help a guy out to the point if his rifle dies they loan him a spare or shares. The only true issue for me and others is the 10 round issue. That is not a expensive equipment as 10 round mags are more expensive than 30. Most of the time if a guy quits 3 gun it is a physical reason as the stages are more physical. If you guys are hell bent on the 10 round thing then go ahead as I will be with Benny finding matches on the fun side of the island.

Your right,,, the guy who practices wins!!!!!!!

It is not all equipment. And how many rounds are in your gun.

The new guy, doesn’t know that.

That’s why, he’s intimidated by equipment.

I don’t like any 10 round rule. The only round limit I was referring to, is to start with a low count, mostly in pistol and shotgun so every one would have to do a re-load.

So the single stack guy, and the 7+1 in the shotgun guy, is on the same ground as the 20+ pistol and the 10+1 shotgun.

That is why we have pump gun and auto, in different classes, you can get in the game with an 870 and an extension, and do well, but an auto, well most people will have to save a little, first.

[detonics]

As far as the round limits on the magazine I will say three more things and then just look at anything new being said. As it is now, we are chasing our tails here and not really covering any other issues.

1. The <Proposed> 10 round limit would not mean going and buying new mags, 20, 30, 40 just put 10 in it. I would be like hi-caps in IDPA now.

2. Have you priced .223 ammo lately. Heck any ammo. It is only going to get worse. This is a small thing to some, but a number of guys only scrape by. this is their release from the pressures of their work day week.

No , when you look at an uspsa ad you look for the things that you say intimidate others. I dont know why you continue to compare to uspsa as most 3-gun is not uspsa sanctioned.(especially the successful ones) And if most of your shooters have a defensive mindset the why would they try and defend themselves and their families with 10 round magazines. True 3-gunners have a different mindset than what idpa is founded on, as a pistol can be defensive but a rifle is more offensive in nature as fewer items stop it that do pistol rounds.

3. The shotgun has stood the test for home defense for ages. It is probably still the most widely thought of when you say "home defense" The "black" or "utility" rifle is making strong headway though. I am looking at this crowd and trying to make them 3 gunners, "true" or otherwise. Just like with pistols in IDPA now, they like the idea that they can show up and still play on the same field with everyone else. No worries about having to trade in their 14 round (insert gun) for a 17 round (insert gun). Nor do they have to buy magazines either. As for looking for the things that intimidate others, I helped run a club and shot IDPA for seven years before I came to work up here. I can not begin to number of new shooters then and now that have made statements about being intimidated by USPSA. 99% of their fears were unjustified, but aren't most fears.

I understand where you and Benny are coming from, but there are a lot of other items to this that just what we have covered here. You have made your position clear and argued well for it. I will look at all the feedback I get. I appreciate you and the others that have kept this civil.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

[Merlin Orr]

Well....as Benny is shooting a 3 gun match this weekend and will not be posting (I guess) let me say this. Benny does shoot our local IDPA carbine match and the local IDPA regular matches whenever they do not conflict with a larger match. B. Hill has made his "druthers" known but... bet on him shooting whatever the rules are. And... probably whipping everyones ass in the process...

[scirocco38s]

Well....as Benny is shooting a 3 gun match this weekend and will not be posting (I guess) let me say this. Benny does shoot our local IDPA carbine match and the local IDPA regular matches whenever they do not conflict with a larger match. B. Hill has made his "druthers" known but... bet on him shooting whatever the rules are. And... probably whipping everyones ass in the process...

Merlin, I wish I could be with Benny this weekend but work has me out of town. Excellent point about Benny and the rules. He will whip your ass with your rules wheather they make it fun or not and then tell you how unfun it was to whip your ass with your rules. It goes back to the 1 who practicies and knows point of aim vs point of impact with his equipment is going to dominate. If that doesnt intimidate a new shooter or a shooter with an ego problem, then you have a keeper in the sport, if it does he was just a interloper and wouldnt have stayed regardless of what changes were made because if he cant be the big dog, he will go find another game. The real shooters and the ones who stay and support the sport( wheather uspsa, idpa, 3-gun) and those are the one who you should market the games to. As previously stated I shoot all the pistol stuff I can regardless of which organization and I run a local uspsa club. I can generally tell within 2 matches if a shooter will stick withit or shoot for 6 months and leave. The ones who will stick with start showing up and helping setup and stay to help teardown, they ask questions of the better shooters, they are allways out there pasting when ther not shooting and regardless of what they shoot the start getting better either thru classes or just practicing. I do everything I can to help the energized shooter who is trying to better his abilities, even if he is a better shooter than I, but I have no patience for the guy who is constantly under the idea that he is being beat by equipment. It is the singer not the song.

[scirocco38s]

And again, folks are forgetting that the I in IDPA stands for "INTERNATIONAL". It's not just about CA, MA, HI vs. states in the USA that don't have a ban. IDPA has to look at the total membership around the world, not just the U.S.

Another thing that people don't seem to be considering is the disparity between shooters who had their gear pre-ban, and got to keep it, versus a new shooter. In CA for example, if you had your 30 rounders before the ban, you could keep them. As a new shooter, you can (legally) only get 10 rounders. If there is no 10-round limit, how can new shooters possibly be competitive, or even have a level playing field? I'm sure that other states that still have a hi-cap ban had grandfather clauses too. So, the problem is NOT just between states, it is WITHIN states too. THAT is the whole point.

So, how do you solve it? Impose a 10-round limit. I also accept that shooters could have hi-caps, and doing so would put them in a different division (like the difference between Limited 10 and Limited). But, how should IDPA do it? Should they double the number of divisions, one each for low-cap / hi-cap? Too many divisions then. If we lump all hi-caps into a single division, say an "open" type division that allows multiple optics and such, then guess what you have: EQUIPMENT RACE. All the hi-cap shooters will have to get all the gear to be competitive. So, you either get a sport with 8 or 10 divisions, or one with 4 divisions, with no incentive to use hi-caps anyway. LOSE - LOSE situation.

Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys that are screaming about a proposed 10-round limit in IDPA multi-gun are over in the USPSA forums (on this site and others) suggesting that Production should remove the 10-round limit? What do you guys have to say about Limited 10? Should it be changed to Limited 15? Should Production lose the 10-round limit rule?

If you're not, post your logic as to why USPSA should retain those limits in their rules, but IDPA MUST accept 30 round magazines in their rules.

I perrsonally want production to go to mag capacity as stated by the mfg of the firearm. I would like to see L-10 eleiminated as we now have singlestack(which is what L-10 was supposed to be) I would also like uspsa to reinstate modified division, and have stated it to my section coordinator as well as my area director. I have said before that the 10 round limit in the pistol is understood but the rifle should not be. If I shoot a match in the peoples repulic of california, I will have 10 round mags as everyone else, If they come and shoot outside of those enlightened states, then I will loan 2 or 3 shooters mags for the match. YOU seem to allways bring back the same argument about equipment, I am talking about a magazine capacity issue, no where have I said anything about optics or divisions or wheather you color coordinated your shirt to your rifle stock, just magazines and course of fire limitations and round counts. You continue to bring up uspsa and I am talking 3-gun which uspsa has very little control over as most arent sanctioned. If they were sanctioned then some of the rules that 3-gun matches use couldnt be. If the match turns out to be idpa pistol match shot with a rifle and shotgun thrown in(outside of california) it will not survive and may turn shooters away from 3-gun and that is a LOSE_LOSE situation. (another useless pc term)

[Hot Brass]

Here is an idea: Let the Match Director declare what type of match will be held. For example, this month's match will be a "limited capacity" rifle match. Alternately, he could declare the match to be an "open capacity" match. (Keep in mind that the provisional rules only address club level matches at this point.) Using this approach, the MD can try both formats and see which one his local shooters prefer. If the majority of local shooters like the "limited capacity" format, he can stick with it. Otherwise, he can stick to the "open capacity" type matches.

Using this approach, the guys who don't like "limited capacity" matches can stay home or go elsewhere. No harm, no foul. If no one shows up at the "limited capacity" match, the MD will know very quickly which direction he should steer his club.

[Jane]

Quite a few shooters in our IDPA club have gotten the OLL's and are very interested in 3 gun.

And have started to shoot with the USPSA clubs for 3 gun matches. They just carry a lot of mags or borrow someone's legal

preban 30 rounders.

[drift]

Trail... Although the chances of getting caught may be quite slim, I hope your generous friends who lend other shooters 30-round mags for a match in California realize that that could incur a felony prosecution.

From http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/regs/sb23indx.php

Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

(emphasis added)

[/drift]

[Roger E.]

18 round strings. Does that mean 18 round stages?

[rubberneck]

18 round strings. Does that mean 18 round stages?

No. No individual string can be longer than 18 rounds. You could create one stage with three strings of fire with 18 rounds each for a total of 54 if you were so inclined.

[J-Ho]

Cost has nothing to do with it, an AR 30 rd from brownells ib $13.00 & an 8 rd. ext. on a shotgun is about $60.00. If that is to much, you can not afford to shoot anyway. I have beat this horse to death so I will just stick to matches that are built on common sense & logic instead of the lowest denominator.

........ catering to the lowest common denominator....... Sounds like a Larry the Cable guy audience...... A good place to start a hate rant...(non specific if you please )

I've got it!!! let's level the playing field, lower everything to the lowest common denominator, and we can even please a large number of the anti gunners. How about a flintlock 3 gun match? This will solve all problems with magazine capacity. We'll have to limit stages to pretty low round counts. No optics, compensators, percussion caps, or any other high tech junk. Hell, I think flintlock are still legal in California.

[M ammo]

Cost has nothing to do with it, an AR 30 rd from brownells ib $13.00 & an 8 rd. ext. on a shotgun is about $60.00. If that is to much, you can not afford to shoot anyway. I have beat this horse to death so I will just stick to matches that are built on common sense & logic instead of the lowest denominator.

........ catering to the lowest common denominator....... Sounds like a Larry the Cable guy audience...... A good place to start a hate rant...(non specific if you please )

I've got it!!! let's level the playing field, lower everything to the lowest common denominator, and we can even please a large number of the anti gunners. How about a flintlock 3 gun match? This will solve all problems with magazine capacity. We'll have to limit stages to pretty low round counts. No optics, compensators, percussion caps, or any other high tech junk. Hell, I think flintlock are still legal in California.

Funny you say that,, one of the guys in our squad (7) at the nationals was joking that we could do a pirate match and have 10 flintlocks on your belt, and a saber, swing from the mast and all that GRRRRRR me Yeee scurvy Dogs..

Too funny… Next year if the Democrats win,,, it may become reality.

Jim M ammo

[PHolsted]

How about we keep this constructive? We have a great opertunity here to have our input heard so lets make the best of it and stop the personal bickering and bashing.

Note the title!

IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN PROVISIONAL RULES

SSG

STOCK SERVICE GUN

RIFLE

.223 or larger

10 rd limit in mag, 11 rds max in gun

18 rd max per string

iron sights only

no gun mounted ammo (What are the mag holder restrictions going to be? Must retain mag securely?Must cover at least 2" like the existing pistol mag carriers? Must have some type of retaining strap? One problem I have with no gun mounted ammo is that just about every home defense rifle I have seen has had some type of gun mounted ammo whether it be two mags side by side or stock mounted type solution. If we are going to go with the same principles of IDPA I do not see see anyone running around with an AR15 under their vest and wearing extra mag carriers. So lets keep it as real as possible.)

Redi-Mags, mag cinches, and like products prohibited

Compensators? (Yes to many rifles out there that already have them as a standard feature. With the limited distances we are talking about I do not see a big advantage here.)

SHOTGUN

Pump only (Not sure about this. I know my home defense shot gun is a automatic)

12 or 20 gauge

5 rds max in mag, 6 rds max in gun

10 rd max per string

no gun mounted ammo (once again I think it should be allowed)

no compensators ( Not sure about this. I want to yes but I would just don't know)

no optics

no speedloaders

PISTOL

SSP and SSR only

ESG

ENHANCED SERVICE GUN

RIFLE

.223 or larger

10 rd limit in mag, 11 rd max in gun

18 rd max per string

single optics only

gun mounted ammo allowed, 10 rds max on gun

Redi-Mags, mag cinches and like products allowed

Compensators?

SHOTGUN

Pump or semi-auto

12 gauge only

5 rd limit in mag, 6 rds max in gun

10 rds max per string

gun mounted ammo allowed, 6 rds max on gun

no compensators

no optics

no speedloaders

PISTOL

all divisions allowed

HWG

HEAVY WEIGHT GUN

RIFLE

.30 caliber or larger

10 rd limit in mag, 11 rds max in gun

18 rd max per string

single optics only

gun mounted ammo a;;owed, 10 rds max on gun

Redi-Mags, mag cinches and like products allowed

Compensators?

SHOTGUN

pump only

12 gauge only

5 rd limit in mag, 6 rds max in gun

10 rds max per string

gun mounted ammo allowed, 6 rds max on gun

no compensators

no optics

no speedloaders

PISTOL

.45 ACP only

8 rds max in mag, 9 rds max in gun

LWG

LIGHT WEIGHT GUN

RIFLE (pistol caliber carbines)

9mm or larger

10 rd max in mag, 11 rds max in gun

18 rds max per string

iron sights only

no gun mounted ammo

Redi-Mags, mag cinches and like products not allowed

SHOTGUN

Pump only

12 or 20 gauge

5 rd limit in mag, 6 rds max in gun

10 rd max per string

no gun mounted ammo

no compensators

no optics

no speedloaders

PISTOL

SSP, SSR, and ESR only

SHOTGUN RULES

Steel should be placed no closer than 10 yds when using shot shells

Steel should be placed no closer than 25 yds when using slugs

Shot shells should not be used with paper targets

A majority of shots should occur within 35 yds, but an occasional target out to 100 yds with slugs should be encouraged

RIFLE RULES

STEEL SHOULD BE PLACED NO CLOSER THAN 25 YDS

A MAJORITY OF SHOTS SHOULD BE WITHIN 35 YDS, BUT AN OCCASIONAL TARGET OUT TO 100 YDS SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED

[uscbigdawg]

I've shot like 2-3 IDPA matches in my life. They were fun (winning them didn't hurt) but it was because the people were great. Translation: You can put anything out there but if someone wants to think that this is "Tactical Training" then it's not going to be fun. I do that crap for work now, I don't need someone yelling at me or trying to put me through a ringer when I'm off.

That said, formal 3-Gun rules in an IDPA format are probably long overdue. Since the sport of IDPA basically formed from old IPSC shooters to begin with, it's only natural that a multi/3-Gun game evolve from it too.

The big thing is that it shouldn't be into the gimmicky stuff (Open vs. Tactical vs. Limited). Bottom line is a scoped rifle "class" and a non-scoped class. No SRTS, etc. If you want some glass on your gun, either deal with fixed/variable power or no power. Irons are irons.

Compensators. They work and guess what, they're "tactical" too. I've got Benny's Rolling Thunder on my M-4 here.

Mag capacities. With my home state of CA (and others), there is obviously some restriction on magazine capacity. However, I would say that this is a LOCAL problem and not a national or international problem. So, on the national/internatinal scale, the mag capacity can be what rifles generally come with 10-30 round mags. The reality is that the rifle is gonna be one of probably 4-5 different types so a standardization of 30 round mag limits is probably about right. However, as I'm all for making folks practice reloading their rifles, rather than a round limit, allowing for stage designers to simply state where a reload is to be done OR that a reload must be done between the first and last shot fired will address that.

As for the shotgun. Two classes again. Pump and Semi. No rounds are to be carried on the person. Only on the shotgun itself.

As for engaging on steel. I've shot my MGM lolli-poppers at a pretty close distance with the pistol and rifle. 25 yards is probably about right for the general rule. I'm less concerned about shotgun on steel at close distance, but definitely no steel shot. For rifle, steel shouldn't be closer than 25-35 yards. No AP ammo for sure.

That's my $0.02. I'm sure I left something out.

Rich

[scirocco38s]

Mag capacities. With my home state of CA (and others), there is obviously some restriction on magazine capacity. However, I would say that this is a LOCAL problem and not a national or international problem. So, on the national/internatinal scale, the mag capacity can be what rifles generally come with 10-30 round mags. The reality is that the rifle is gonna be one of probably 4-5 different types so a standardization of 30 round mag limits is probably about right. However, as I'm all for making folks practice reloading their rifles, rather than a round limit, allowing for stage designers to simply state where a reload is to be done OR that a reload must be done between the first and last shot fired will address that.

Another person who understands. Thanks Rich.

[Roger E.]

I am a member of IDPA. But, this latest limitation makes the matches boring. I will pass on attending. Doesn't anyone care about what the shooters want, anymore?

[Mike P]

As far as the round limits on the magazine I will say three more things and then just look at anything new being said. As it is now, we are chasing our tails here and not really covering any other issues.

1. The <Proposed> 10 round limit would not mean going and buying new mags, 20, 30, 40 just put 10 in it. I would be like hi-caps in IDPA now.

2. Have you priced .223 ammo lately. Heck any ammo. It is only going to get worse. This is a small thing to some, but a number of guys only scrape by. this is their release from the pressures of their work day week.

No , when you look at an uspsa ad you look for the things that you say intimidate others. I dont know why you continue to compare to uspsa as most 3-gun is not uspsa sanctioned.(especially the successful ones) And if most of your shooters have a defensive mindset the why would they try and defend themselves and their families with 10 round magazines. True 3-gunners have a different mindset than what idpa is founded on, as a pistol can be defensive but a rifle is more offensive in nature as fewer items stop it that do pistol rounds.

3. The shotgun has stood the test for home defense for ages. It is probably still the most widely thought of when you say "home defense" The "black" or "utility" rifle is making strong headway though. I am looking at this crowd and trying to make them 3 gunners, "true" or otherwise. Just like with pistols in IDPA now, they like the idea that they can show up and still play on the same field with everyone else. No worries about having to trade in their 14 round (insert gun) for a 17 round (insert gun). Nor do they have to buy magazines either. As for looking for the things that intimidate others, I helped run a club and shot IDPA for seven years before I came to work up here. I can not begin to number of new shooters then and now that have made statements about being intimidated by USPSA. 99% of their fears were unjustified, but aren't most fears.

I understand where you and Benny are coming from, but there are a lot of other items to this that just what we have covered here. You have made your position clear and argued well for it. I will look at all the feedback I get. I appreciate you and the others that have kept this civil.

Robert Ray

IDPA HQ

You are right .223 is getting to be pretty expensive. One way to make it cheaper on us is to value the zero down portion of the targets as 10 points for rifles. In other words one shot from a rifle caliber in either of the zero down areas would basically count as two hits, incurring no penalty, the rest of the target scoring could be left the same. This way a person could, at least theoretically, cut their ammo useage in half simply by getting good hits. It'd be less reloads too, eh?

As far as shotguns go for home defense, I'm guessing that most will have it loaded to capacity(whatever it is, 5 or 6 or 15, etc.) and standing in the corner, without a bandolier, loaded armband or a belt with shell loaders. I think that most who have one set up for this purpose will have any extra shells on some sort of weapon mounted carrier. As I said though, this is a guess. How DO y'all set up you home defense scattergun?

Mike

[Greg Bell]

How DO y'all set up you home defense scattergun?

Mike

Loaded 8+1 with no side saddle, butt cuff, or bandoleer

[Religious Shooter]

How DO y'all set up you home defense scattergun?

Mike

Loaded 8+1 with no side saddle, butt cuff, or bandoleer

How do you reload without a side saddle, butt cuff or bandoleer in a home defense situtation? Don't tell me you (plan to) strap on CCW holders when you go investigate something in the night.

[Greg Bell]

How DO y'all set up you home defense scattergun?

Mike

Loaded 8+1 with no side saddle, butt cuff, or bandoleer

How do you reload without a side saddle, butt cuff or bandoleer in a home defense situtation? Don't tell me you (plan to) strap on CCW holders when you go investigate something in the night.

I really don't plan on going anywhere. Got the Shotgun with 8+1 and a Glock with 13+1 and another mag of 13 right there with a light and cell phone. What more do I need? Another 6 rounds of 00 buck? Nah I think I'll take my chances

Edited October 20, 2007 by Greg Bell

[rookieglocker]

keep in mind in most EU country rifle mags are limited to ten round(sometimes 5) by the law.thats' a good reason to have a 10 round limit if you want to have international competition.

[Mike P]

keep in mind in most EU country rifle mags are limited to ten round(sometimes 5) by the law.thats' a good reason to have a 10 round limit if you want to have international competition.

Instead of a ten round mag limit, how about mandating no more than 8 or 10 rounds from any one position and allow speed reloads with the rifle between shooting positions since you will have a loaded pistol and as such won't be out in the open with an unloaded gun.

Mike

[shred]

keep in mind in most EU country rifle mags are limited to ten round(sometimes 5) by the law.thats' a good reason to have a 10 round limit if you want to have international competition.

And in most of Central America it seems that the hardest problem will be keeping shooters fingers off the full-auto switch... The Nordics might want to use suppressors all the time to be polite.. Different regions have different issues, so one-size-fits all is a poor way to go about it.

How popular internationally is IDPA? I asked a little in Europe and just got blank stares from the shooters I talked to.

[Religious Shooter]

I really don't plan on going anywhere. Got the Shotgun with 8+1 and a Glock with 13+1 and another mag of 13 right there with a light and cell phone. What more do I need? Another 6 rounds of 00 buck? Nah I think I'll take my chances

I think there is a good chance that if folks put on an IDPA style match the shooters will have to reload a shotgun.

So let's pretend that you do have to reload in a home defense situtation. How will you be carrying the spare rounds?

Is it more realistic that the average home defender will have extra shells on the shotgun? (which the above rules prohibit)

Or is it more realistic that the average home defender will have a shell belt/CCW holders near the shotgun? That is... home defender hears a noise... grabs a shotgun... and then straps on a shell belt/holder... and then does his/her thing.

I bet you if you take a snapshot of the average home defense shotgun they will most likely be like you and not have any spare rounds or else have a side saddle. The latter being prohibited by the rules.

I don't see why the provisional rules make it illegal to have gun mounted shell holders when in all likelihood that's how the average real deal home defense shotgun with spare rounds will be set-up.

[Trail3]

Most shotguns for home defense have side saddles for shells. If you don't, you should.

Not expensive to add.

They should be allowed. Have all ammo loaded off the gun.