IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN

[Trail3]

Most shotguns for home defense have side saddles for shells. If you don't, you should.

Not expensive to add.

They should be allowed. Have all ammo loaded off the gun.

[kdmoore]

Most shotguns for home defense have side saddles for shells. If you don't, you should.

Not expensive to add.

They should be allowed. Have all ammo loaded off the gun.

Just be careful about adding an unproven sidesaddle to your shotgun. Benellie's are pretty famous for jamming if they are snugged up too tight. Don't know about other models.

For all who are complaining about the no ammo on gun ... why not just move to the division where it is allowed.

Those arguing a 10+1 start on the rifle doesn't match thier current gear ... well it isn't supposed to. Only thing the sport strives to encourage is the type of the gear, not the starting capacity or types of bullets. 10 round limit does a couple of things. It forces a reload for stages that are > 11 rounds. It levels the playing field for those playing with limited mag capacity (ban states or those who want to compete with different rifles (M1, etc)). I doubt those not wanting to play because this is "not fun" would really be interested in strings limited to 18 rounds anyways. For me, this will be: a. More trigger time with the 3 guns. b. a different mindset.

Anyways, kudo's for not copying all the other formats. These rules align well with the rules/mindset of IDPA pistol matches. I do think they'll appeal to the newer shooters. Assuming the stricter use of cover this should appeal to the "real world" crowd as well.

[Religious Shooter]

For all who are complaining about the no ammo on gun ... why not just move to the division where it is allowed.

How are the people in SSG (where it isn't allowed) going to reload?

[walangkatapat]

You can have an AR-15 under three circumstances:

- You had it before the ban

- You are a peace officer that is authorized to by your department to have it off duty

- You built one using an "Off-List Lower," or OLL, without a pistol grip or flash hider. The DOJ banned specific manufacturers of AR-15 lowers, like DPMS and Bushmaster. If you can find someone that makes lowers that's not on the list, you can build an AR-15, as long as it doesn't have the banned features, like a pistol grip or flash hider. See this thread for pics of an OLL build AR-15 (a pretty nice one too!).

As far as hi-caps, if you had them before the ban, you are good to go. It's a no-no to have them post-ban.

Have you had to register everything?

[Mike P]

Most shotguns for home defense have side saddles for shells. If you don't, you should.

Not expensive to add.

They should be allowed. Have all ammo loaded off the gun.

Just be careful about adding an unproven sidesaddle to your shotgun. Benellie's are pretty famous for jamming if they are snugged up too tight. Don't know about other models.

For all who are complaining about the no ammo on gun ... why not just move to the division where it is allowed.

Those arguing a 10+1 start on the rifle doesn't match thier current gear ... well it isn't supposed to. Only thing the sport strives to encourage is the type of the gear, not the starting capacity or types of bullets. 10 round limit does a couple of things. It forces a reload for stages that are > 11 rounds. It levels the playing field for those playing with limited mag capacity (ban states or those who want to compete with different rifles (M1, etc)). I doubt those not wanting to play because this is "not fun" would really be interested in strings limited to 18 rounds anyways. For me, this will be: a. More trigger time with the 3 guns. b. a different mindset.

Anyways, kudo's for not copying all the other formats. These rules align well with the rules/mindset of IDPA pistol matches. I do think they'll appeal to the newer shooters. Assuming the stricter use of cover this should appeal to the "real world" crowd as well.

Well, it may "feel" like the playing field is level between an downloaded AR and a Garand, but it just ain't so. In fact, its doubtful there is any weapon system other than those of the same type/pattern that WILL be on equal footing with the AR stuff(and I just hate it), particularly since there is no power factor consideration. The heavy weight will also be dominated by downloaded mag rifles like the M1A, ar 10, and FAL. Folks can shoot their Hakims, and SKS's and even AK's, but it'll be uphill. I still contend that it is more sensible to accomodate the largest shooter base rather than make the rules based on the restictive nature of a few state legislatures, in fact to do so is absolutesly WRONG in principle. It could be MORE level though if a ten round max were put on strings of fire rather than mags.

Nope, sorry the mag restriction doesn't level anything for anyone, all it does is force a premature reload and the rules already allow for that.

We still don't know where SSP shooters are going to get their shells to reload from since it can't be gun mounted. Maybe a vest pocket??? Just kidding, but seriously, will the CCW carriers and armbands be allowed and the sidesaddle not?

As far as mindset for matches goes, I think most winners (not me) have a "winning mindset". That said, I have seen some of the top shooters use flawlesss cover tactics and still be damn fast. It'll be the same in multi-gun.

Mike

Edited October 21, 2007 by Mike P

[kdmoore]

Nope, sorry the mag restriction doesn't level anything for anyone, all it does is force a premature reload and the rules already allow for that.

OK, I've reevaluated the 10 round mag limits on rifles in my mind ... Here's where I'm at thought wise.

10 round rule could be employed for numerous reasons.

1. Allow for the sport to work in all states without problem. If this is the case, then I support the 10 rnd idea. It isn't a huge deal to me. For the new shooter who doesn't own a legal 20 or 30 round magazine, it would be unfair to expect them to borrow a mag when competing out of state as they'd not be able to test for reliability and may not be able to even find a loaner (unlikely). These are the shooters who we'd like to invite into the sport, they are worth the concession (in my mind).

2.Level the playing ground (not make it even, just remove one advantage) against lower cap rifles. But I'm not sure how many 10 round rifles there are (are there any?). If they exist, then I support the rule.

3. Force a reload . If we are wanting to force a gun to be shot "dry" in the COF, then the rule makes sense. But this is going to add an advantage to rifle that lock back by design (i.e. AR) over those that don't (i.e. AK). If this is the reason then I'm against the idea. I'd support others suggestion. Allowing the MD to dictate reloads (where the gun isn't dry) Or dictate that at least one reload must be performed during a COF. Allow it to be at the shooters discretion.

Raises the question in my mind ... Are the same restrictions on reloads going to apply. i.e. retention of rifle mags if the chamber isn't empty, pick up any fumbled shotshells ...?

For all who are complaining about the no ammo on gun ... why not just move to the division where it is allowed.

How are the people in SSG (where it isn't allowed) going to reload?

Fair question, I'd toss it over to Robert or whomever has insight. This starts the next question forming in my mind. The spirit of IDPA has been to use "street gear". Stuff you'd normally have while carrying concealed (of course this isn't followed 100 %, but it's the intent). So, how will this work. Will the idea be that our gear is how a typical SD situation (retrieve longguns from closet, trunk, etc) If this is the case, I'd guess that rifle reloads would come from a stage box, or mag might start laying next to the gun, or ???. Extra shotgun shells might be loose next to the gun, in a pocket or ???

If not, I'd assume that AR reloads come from a mag mounted on the belt. Shotshells would come from a bandoleer, belt, wristband, etc

While exact details may not be known, I am curious what the current thoughts of those working on these rules are. Where do reloads come from in SSG?

Edited October 21, 2007 by kdmoore

[scirocco38s]

Most shotguns for home defense have side saddles for shells. If you don't, you should.

Not expensive to add.

They should be allowed. Have all ammo loaded off the gun.

Just be careful about adding an unproven sidesaddle to your shotgun. Benellie's are pretty famous for jamming if they are snugged up too tight. Don't know about other models.

For all who are complaining about the no ammo on gun ... why not just move to the division where it is allowed.

Those arguing a 10+1 start on the rifle doesn't match thier current gear ... well it isn't supposed to. Only thing the sport strives to encourage is the type of the gear, not the starting capacity or types of bullets. 10 round limit does a couple of things. It forces a reload for stages that are > 11 rounds. It levels the playing field for those playing with limited mag capacity (ban states or those who want to compete with different rifles (M1, etc)). I doubt those not wanting to play because this is "not fun" would really be interested in strings limited to 18 rounds anyways. For me, this will be: a. More trigger time with the 3 guns. b. a different mindset.

Anyways, kudo's for not copying all the other formats. These rules align well with the rules/mindset of IDPA pistol matches. I do think they'll appeal to the newer shooters. Assuming the stricter use of cover this should appeal to the "real world" crowd as well.

Well, it may "feel" like the playing field is level between an downloaded AR and a Garand, but it just ain't so. In fact, its doubtful there is any weapon system other than those of the same type/pattern that WILL be on equal footing with the AR stuff(and I just hate it), particularly since there is no power factor consideration. The heavy weight will also be dominated by downloaded mag rifles like the M1A, ar 10, and FAL. Folks can shoot their Hakims, and SKS's and even AK's, but it'll be uphill. I still contend that it is more sensible to accomodate the largest shooter base rather than make the rules based on the restictive nature of a few state legislatures, in fact to do so is absolutesly WRONG in principle. It could be MORE level though if a ten round max were put on strings of fire rather than mags.

Nope, sorry the mag restriction doesn't level anything for anyone, all it does is force a premature reload and the rules already allow for that.

We still don't know where SSP shooters are going to get their shells to reload from since it can't be gun mounted. Maybe a vest pocket??? Just kidding, but seriously, will the CCW carriers and armbands be allowed and the sidesaddle not?

As far as mindset for matches goes, I think most winners (not me) have a "winning mindset". That said, I have seen some of the top shooters use flawlesss cover tactics and still be damn fast. It'll be the same in multi-gun.

Mike

Another 1 who understands. You can still have Idpa 3-gun and stille hold true to your principles for the pistol. Its the magazine and shotgun plus round count that will make the difference between success and pacifying the 5% that think it is a equipment war. I personally like higher than 18 round courses of fire in 3-gun and as far as shell holders on the gun and redi-mags/magcinche that is standard equipment on any 3-gun ar and the ones I use arent expensive(10 bucks each). I now return back to the fun side of the island with Benny.

[markm]

though it was friendly and helpful. not negative, just pragmatic and truthful.

All I was saying is that Someone is going to make a decision on what goes and what doesn't, not everybody is going to be happy. The only real option available is to vote with your feet and wallet, either you play by their rules or you don't play.

Edited October 22, 2007 by markm

[Merlin Orr]

In this thread, we have more than our share of the nattering nabobs of negativism.

If you have some constructive input please share it. If you can't keep it friendly just don't post.

[Mike P]

A couple more things that ought to be addressed in the rules are the ammo types that are allowed/prohibited during a course of fire and some of the wording with regard to distances that steel can be shot.

The wording is that steel SHOULD not be shot closer than 10 yards with shotshells and 25 yards with a rifle or slugs. It would be better in my opinion if it said MUST NOT be shot closer than the declared distances.

The written rules should also preclude the use of tracer and incendiary ammo as well as steel core/penetrator ammo when engaging steel. No steel shot on steel targets either, better yet, no steel shot allowed period. Unless a goose with an anti-social bent can be written into the COF.

I know it'd be copying the other matches rules, but what the hell, eh, its a range safety issue.

Mike

[uscbigdawg]

I just see a bunch of folks that don't want to reload. If it's an AR. Got it. The thing comes with a 30 round mag. However, reloading is a skill that should be tested and not just in "standard" events. I'm not against short loading the gun (as part of an overall stage/accuracy test), but at the same time, I'm not for throwing a Beta on and running (or maybe ruining) every stage ever created by not allowing a stage designer to mandate a reload in something as simple as before the last shot is fired. Too easy.

If it's meant to be "tactical" then there would be no shotgun stage longer than probably 12-14 rounds. 8 in the gun and a "standard" 6 round side saddle w/ a couple left over depending on barrel length rules and mag tube configuration. Nothing on your person.

Rich

[itento]

Just a couple of comments. As one who runs 6 multigun (not 3 gun) matches a year at our local club and RO's at a couple larger matches, I can attest that you will automatically level the playing field for all but the "masters" by just being multigun. Most shooters just don't have the time to really master multiple platforms. This is one reason I'd like the USPSA's Divisions eliminated from 3-gun/multigun matches. How you are classified in pistol has nothing to do with multigun.

Additionally, I would also like to see more "freestyle", especially in multigun. Rather than dictate a fixed pattern that everyone must follow, giving the shooter some choices with rewards and risks is a lot more challenging and fun. One way to do this is through rewarding the lethality of different platforms (Slugs - one hit on target is zero down, rifle - .223 or carbine - 1 hit in zero area = zero down. Otherwise two hits required, .30 cal or bigger rifle - same as slug, Pistol - normal IDPA). The time to retrieve (and load??)a shotgun or rifle versus a close by pistol adds challenge. The calculation of engaging once with a shotgun versus twice with a pistol adds challenge. Have a few longer targets or head shots and you might want to think rifle versus slug. The real challenge is how you plan your attack (defense) in a limited period of time (just like real world) and how decisions are very personalized. If you are a lousy pistol shot but can handle a slide shotgun like a champ, you might go one way where the guy who is very confident with a rifle may go another. At our local club matches, we even have a Western 3-gun squad who shoot the stages much differently than our USPSA guy do because of their gun limitations (no pistol reloads, 5 shots per revolver, shotguns start with only 2 rounds loaded).

[GmanCdp]

Just a couple of comments. As one who runs 6 multigun (not 3 gun) matches a year at our local club and RO's at a couple larger matches, I can attest that you will automatically level the playing field for all but the "masters" by just being multigun. Most shooters just don't have the time to really master multiple platforms. This is one reason I'd like the USPSA's Divisions eliminated from 3-gun/multigun matches. How you are classified in pistol has nothing to do with multigun.

Additionally, I would also like to see more "freestyle", especially in multigun. Rather than dictate a fixed pattern that everyone must follow, giving the shooter some choices with rewards and risks is a lot more challenging and fun. One way to do this is through rewarding the lethality of different platforms (Slugs - one hit on target is zero down, rifle - .223 or carbine - 1 hit in zero area = zero down. Otherwise two hits required, .30 cal or bigger rifle - same as slug, Pistol - normal IDPA). The time to retrieve (and load??)a shotgun or rifle versus a close by pistol adds challenge. The calculation of engaging once with a shotgun versus twice with a pistol adds challenge. Have a few longer targets or head shots and you might want to think rifle versus slug. The real challenge is how you plan your attack (defense) in a limited period of time (just like real world) and how decisions are very personalized. If you are a lousy pistol shot but can handle a slide shotgun like a champ, you might go one way where the guy who is very confident with a rifle may go another. At our local club matches, we even have a Western 3-gun squad who shoot the stages much differently than our USPSA guy do because of their gun limitations (no pistol reloads, 5 shots per revolver, shotguns start with only 2 rounds loaded).

http://www.3gunrules.com/gettingstarted.php

Good post Tom.....i also saw on your website this link http://www.3gunrules.com/gettingstarted.php which i thought pretty well answered alot of questions for me....anyway...

[Shootingirons45]

I don't shoot 3 gun, multi gun..so I don't have a dog in this hunt. That being said I will say this. It appears that the rules have already been determined and this forums being used as a barometer to see what the market will support. Having said that, I do not see the need for 10 rd mags, "leveling the playing field". Enforce reloads thru stage designs and round counts. And to presume that fellow shooters will not loan decent mags flies in the face of my experiences these past 27 yrs of shooting in competitions. It may be a dirty word to say but I believe in freestyle, to allow the shooter to find the best solution to the problem presented..within the rules, of course. The reason I post this is because I'd like to see 3 gun, multigun thrive..especially in these trying times.

[kdmoore]

to presume that fellow shooters will not loan decent mags flies in the face of my experiences these past 27 yrs of shooting in competitions

Mine too, from both giving and recieving. But some folks are hesitant to ask, may ask at the event etc when it's too late. Even for borrowed mags, who wants to see if an unknown mag will be flawless during a major match they've traveled to? It's likely many would be successful borrowing mag, but doubtful 100% would.

Don't think the rules are determined as of yet. Robert Ray has been listening to the constructive stuff. On IDPAforum, there are several alternate versions being discussed ...

[uscbigdawg]

There's "freestyle" and solving the problem and then there's being lazy and not wanting to do a skill and let equipment take over. For instance, Beta magazines on an AR. Don't think it will happen? Look at 3-Gun/Multi-Gun as it is now. Give an opportunity to use something and people will. I personally do not as I don't think it is an advantage and even if it was, I wouldn't use one since I think it's a cop out and shows what's important to people....the match or the skill.

That said, great post Tom. The SMM3G years ago had a stage (or stages) where the shooter chose how to engage it with a pistol and rifle (televised on American Shooter). THAT to me is what 3-Gun/Multi-Gun should be. When Miculek satisfied the course description buy firing one round with the pistol and engaged the rest of the stage with the rifle, that was a great solution (for him) to the problem of the stage.

Rich

[scirocco38s]

There's "freestyle" and solving the problem and then there's being lazy and not wanting to do a skill and let equipment take over. For instance, Beta magazines on an AR. Don't think it will happen? Look at 3-Gun/Multi-Gun as it is now. Give an opportunity to use something and people will. I personally do not as I don't think it is an advantage and even if it was, I wouldn't use one since I think it's a cop out and shows what's important to people....the match or the skill.

Rich, It being Idpa 3 gun I dont think there would ever be a stage or scenario where a beta would be neccessary. But 30 round mags loaded to capacity with a mandatory reload somewhere in the stge or starting with a downloaded mag(say at 12-14 rounds) would be good. I also find it interesting that at this years multigun nationals that even though they could use them, most of the top shooters shot most if not all of the stages with 30's and an occasional 40 mag. I persoannly have used a beta in a 3-gun once and it wasn't for the capacity, it was when I went prone the mag gave such a solid foundation for the gun to rest on(it was better than a bipod) it was at the perfect height. I would not trust a beta mag for stage after stage duty as I have seen to many of them fail. If I break out the beta it is almost alway in the situation described and I graphite the hell out of it to make sure it runs.

[benelli2]

Unbeleivable, I can't fathom having rules where you could limit the rounds in an AR or the number you carried on the gun, look at the gear in the real fights happening now. I guess that is why I mainly shoot the wildcard 3 gun matches, there is far less worry about creating a level playing field for the lowest common player and more emphasis on building good stages and letting the shooters have a good time with what they bring. Recently had a couple new guys come to our 3 gun, I loaned them gear, they are both hooked now buying there own gear. Great fun stages is what keeps folks coming (IMHO), not the illusion that they have a chance of winning without practicing because they have equal gear

jc

[benny hill]

Now there's a man who know's 3-gunning.

[scirocco38s]

Unbeleivable, I can't fathom having rules where you could limit the rounds in an AR or the number you carried on the gun, look at the gear in the real fights happening now. I guess that is why I mainly shoot the wildcard 3 gun matches, there is far less worry about creating a level playing field for the lowest common player and more emphasis on building good stages and letting the shooters have a good time with what they bring. Recently had a couple new guys come to our 3 gun, I loaned them gear, they are both hooked now buying there own gear. Great fun stages is what keeps folks coming (IMHO), not the illusion that they have a chance of winning without practicing because they have equal gear

jc

Another shooter who gets it. And he really understands multi-gun.

[Shootingirons45]

I wish to be clear here so there's no misunderstanding what I meant. First off, no match can, will or should replicate a shootout, "training", blah blah blah. Since when is it a detriment to anybody to have a weapon/mag that holds more ammo? Personally I have no issue with a person using a Beta Mag. If the course is designed properly it'll negate any advantage the Beta may have..assuming the Beta works 100% of the time. To call the term freestyle as being lazy is a misunderstanding of the term. Freestyle means that you..the shooter, are presented a problem, and you, the shooter are free to solve it any fashion you so choose, within the rules..and that is not cheating. The ability to use ones mind, talent and imagination is what helped to build this country and it also shows in the better shooters. Whatever rules are decided upon for the IDPA 3 gun I do hope they will give some due thought on all this.

[Larry White]

I dont think anyone called freestyle lazy. This you must shoot these targets from here, reload from behind this cover with only 10 rds move to that place and shoot only those targets with two rds then go back and shoot two of the same targets in the head with only one rd is lazy. The only decision the shooter makes is wheather or not to showup. Freestyle requires a little thought and more than basic skills, I dont think these rules allow for that.-------------Larry

[kdmoore]

Hmmm, Sounds like we are back to rehashing the differences between the two organizations. USPSA puts a premium on "freestyle" (but it's not completely free, there are still requirements and rules to be followed). IDPA puts a premium on use of cover and shooting to an empty gun as a way to emulate RW shooting (and certainly will fall short until the cardboard starts shooting back).

IMO, the proposed rules better are aligning pretty closely with current IDPA rules, and those who enjoy the IDPA matches will enjoy what is forming.

Personally, I've decided that not all shooting is fun for me. I've decided to limit it to guns with triggers and bullets.

[Merlin Orr]

..............Personally, I've decided that not all shooting is fun for me. I've decided to limit it to guns with triggers and bullets.

Now that's what I'm talking about.

[scirocco38s]

Hmmm, Sounds like we are back to rehashing the differences between the two organizations. USPSA puts a premium on "freestyle" (but it's not completely free, there are still requirements and rules to be followed). IDPA puts a premium on use of cover and shooting to an empty gun as a way to emulate RW shooting (and certainly will fall short until the cardboard starts shooting back).

IMO, the proposed rules better are aligning pretty closely with current IDPA rules, and those who enjoy the IDPA matches will enjoy what is forming.

Personally, I've decided that not all shooting is fun for me. I've decided to limit it to guns with triggers and bullets.

Hmmm, sounds like we arent talking about the differences of the 2 organizations first we havent been bringing up uspsa(or havent you figured that out). We are talking 3-gun, non uspsa sanctioned and the preferred method of running the match. Nobody has been talking issues of cover. We basically and only have been talking about magazine and shotgun ammo holders and amount of ammo on the gun/mag. We have been talking about stage design abstractly thru round count discussions. Nowhere has anyone other than detractor of the thread brought up uspsa. I want to shoot and have a good time shooting 3-gun/multigun, but if I cant carry ammo on my shotgun and load more than 10 rounds in a mag, then it is no thank you and we have tried it and it doesnt work. If you defend your property with a shotgun are you gpoing to have a side saddle with ammo on it or are you going to call time out while you get your shotgun sheel pouches out and on your person. My personal ar for home defense is loaded with 2 30 round mags cinched together so I dont have to worry about carryin ammo in my truly real world scenarios.