kdmoore Posted November 2, 2007 Share Posted November 2, 2007 (edited) Mag caps are not going to level the playing field either. The more prepared shooter is still going to win. That is the exact reason to level the playing field. There is the perception that the guy with all the best gear wins, the concept is to remove many of the equipment differentiators so that the best skilled shooter usually wins. And to remove the perception that the guy who has average gear sitting around has a chance. But I may be mistaken in the rational for the mag caps. They may be there to encourage people to practice reloads? Well, it is much better than before, but the reasoning behind the ten round limit for rifle is still not very convincing to me. I mean really, no tactical vest and of course no empty mag pouches because no one would be appointed in such a way in "real life". O.K. Now who would have their defensive weapon downloaded to less than half capacity in "real life" only to have ten more in another mag that they have to grab and reload from when they could have put all twenty of them in the same mag to begin with? It still doesn't make good sense from a competition or defensive standpoint. Mike Mike, you are half way there. The idea is that the gear is "real world" but the arena is a game. So you are right on why the gear is ruled out. But for various "competition oriented" reasons, mags are limited in the number of rounds loaded. (IMO) I actually have made the arguement on idpaforums for use of a single mag loaded to 20 or 30, or to allow "speed reloads". My rational is that the current rules are going to favor a cinched pair of mags on a firearm that locks back on the last round ... aka the AR15 family. Rational: If mag retention is required when reloading with a full chamber, the mag cinches will have a significant advantage. If encouraging folks to shoot to an empty gun before reloading is in the mix, then AK's and others will need to be manually racked. AK ammo is cheap, AK's are cheap, I'd venture a guess that many are owned for this reason (for HD). But they are going to feel uncompetive with the current suggestion. Way to "fix this" would be to allow speed loads, or make reloads fairly rare (i.e. allow 20 round mags and 18 round stages). Even redimag users are going to feel like a tac reload is much harder for them. I'd be the first to admit that this would be a mixed message for IDPA to "champion" as it's diametrically opposed to our pistol philosophy. In my mind it could be done because it would favor a wider spectrum of rifles. Also, I don't know that rifle reloads need to be tested continually. A higher capacity, more powerful, more precise firearm is much less likely to need to be reloaded. Having said all the above. I think this generation of rules is a very nice compromise. I hope it is well recieved at HQ. I know that the 3gun idea has been worked on before and for whatever reason wasn't initiated. I hope this time that the time has come. YMMV! Edited November 2, 2007 by kdmoore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted November 8, 2007 Share Posted November 8, 2007 For shotgun, I have a few ideas: 1. Limit shells in gun at start to 4+1 so that almost every stock pump or auto can compete equally. 2. Alternatively, make sure factory 2 1/2" shells with sufficient power to operate most autos are commercially available, and see if you can stuff 5 in the tube of some factory guns (note: if that works, do NOT go hunting with that gun and 2 1/2" shells unless you put a plug in the magazine tube!). 3. Leave it alone. Let accessory manufacturers go wild over +1 kits, leaving some totally stock guns only at a 1 shell disadvantage. If the limit is only at start and not a physical capacity limit, LE/Mil-spec & "home defense" guns are ready out-of the-box. Also, there are plenty of kits that raise mag tube capacity from 4 to 7, 8, 9, or 10, and allow the shotgun to be competitive in USPSA, IMGA, or "outlaw" matches. 4. Skill trumps over equipment. Some Cowboy Action/SASS shooter will show up with a double-barrel SxS and a lever-action rifle, and beat all of the pump and auto shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leam Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 (edited) Picking up on this a little late, sorry. My first exposure to the possibilities of a 3-Gun was at my first IDPA match a year ago. Several issues arose. My feet got cold because it was a three match day, inclusing rifle and low-light. I had to borrow the MD's AR as I had no rifle, and it took me half the match to figure out how the EOTech thing worked. Okay, I've been out of the game for a few decades, what can I say...Other than that it was a blast and I didn't care about what the limitations were. There's an FAL kit in my shop just for this sort of thing. I'm very against steel targets with long gun rounds at less than 100 yards. Make them reactive and put several down range. The shooter only has to hit one and the shooters should spread out which ones they hit. Should keep you from having to walk down range as often. Magazine limits. Set whatever standards you want for Sanctioned and the Nationals. Local clubs can choose to suit the local flavor and someone seriuos enough to go to a big match will choose to play that game. Shotgun gauges--is a 20 light enough for some of our junior shooters? SASS allows .410s and even those can kick a small framed kid enough to discourage them. Divisions. Stock, Enhanced, and Heavy Metal. Iron sights in the first and last, No magnification Optics in the middle. I *still* wouldn't be surprised if a CAS shooter came in with grand-dad's 1911, Winchester 30-30 and an original Model 97 shotgun and whooped us all... ciao! Leam Edited November 25, 2007 by leam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Hell, why don't we make every gun a single shot so the T-C's can play also so as not to leave anyone with one out. This is silly, ar's hold 30 rds & have cinched mags everywhere & you can buy a shotgun that holds 8 rds at wally world for under $350.0o. Let's don't forget the T-C boys if you want to limit rds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p99shooter Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 We could do without the sarcasm. If you have something constructive to add, please do. You are happy and successful with multi-gun the way you like it. If IDPA is not your thing, then be silent and let others enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Sorry if I made common sense, I will not make any more remarks about IDPA 3-gun in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leam Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Sorry if I made common sense, I will not make any more remarks about IDPA 3-gun in the future. Haven't seen much of the former, looking forward to your constructive comments on the latter. Leam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted November 25, 2007 Share Posted November 25, 2007 Aw, cute little folks hiding behind false names while sniping at one of the most practiced and experienced 3-gun guys in the world... Amusing! Ten round limits...just don't see a point. Not allowing "ammo holders" on the person until after the start...don't see the point. GI AR mags are five bucks. As Benny said, a 8-round shotgun gun is a Wally World item, not merely a high-zoot custom shop "gamer" gun...or a Scattergun Tech Tacti-toy, either. Under those rules, it would see the appropriate gear would be a 10-round lever gun and a 1897 shotgun. Then we can dictate funny outfits and outlaw certain footwear and such...oh, wait... Drop the rifle mag limits, raise the shotgun mag limit to 8 (and drop the prohibition against modern shotguns), and it sounds like fun. Otherwise, this rehash of the Cowboy Action rules is like a broken pencil. Pointless. Alex PS As otherwise already noted here by other non-civilians, my own "gamer" gun was a comp'ed dot-sight 14.5" AR with cinch'ed 30's loaded full...and probably will be again soon. This game's idea of "real world" seems to have an odd vision of "real world" which is not based in...facts... A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 I still think it's funny that my Winchester Defender (says so right on it) is a 'gamer' gun, and I'm hard-pressed to think of a free-state rifle that can hold more than 10 and less than 20. Maybe a single-stack Mech-Tech or Marlin Camp Carbine or something. Anyway, I like Iron Mike's rules where he has separate divisions for 10-rounds-or-less and 'stuff-as-many-in-as-you-want'. Works great, everybody's happy and results-wise, it's not much different than 6-round in this division, 8 rounds in that, 10 in the other.. they're not competing against each other anyway, right? Would that really cause all the course designs to go out the window? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 We could do without the sarcasm. If you have something constructive to add, please do. You are happy and successful with multi-gun the way you like it. If IDPA is not your thing, then be silent and let others enjoy it. He isn't being sarcastic, he is trying to help you guys out. Most of thepost in here are from people trying to help you out, but you just dont get it. I have finally come to the conclusion that you never will. Sorry if I made common sense, I will not make any more remarks about IDPA 3-gun in the future. Benny, just let them be and come back over to the fun side of the island, they're over on the New Jersey side. Once they've drank the koolaid there is no helping them. Sorry if I made common sense, I will not make any more remarks about IDPA 3-gun in the future. Haven't seen much of the former, looking forward to your constructive comments on the latter. Leam Benny has made many constructive comments, but some are either unwilling or unable to grasp them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 26, 2007 Share Posted November 26, 2007 10 pages, and the post are now heading at each other, and not discussing the topic. CLOSED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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