IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN

[uscbigdawg]

I see this as the problem. Overlap of the various bodies. My concern lies with 3-Gun as it would apply to IDPA. Not IMGA or USPSA.

Rich

[AustinT]

I don't have a terribly great deal of experience in the realm of practical shooting, but I did shoot in Buzzdraw's practical rifle match a couple of weeks ago and thought it was a great format. One stage out of four started with a full mag, and the rest started with significantly downloaded ones. Reload behind cover whenever you like with a full mag, and keep chugging. Keeps things simple for the noob-wonders, such as myself.

My rifle in the closet has a flashlight, an EoTech, back up irons, and a 30-round mag inserted. If that's not defensive, I don't know what is. I don't plan on defending myself, my family, or my property with a 10-round mag. For those that live in one of the Peoples' Republics and can't have more than a 10-rounder, I'm sorry and that sucks, but I don't think it's a good idea to force those who aren't under the thumb of oppression to compete/train (whatever you want to call it) at that level. If you want mandatory reloads, call for downloaded mags at start and mandatory reloads at specific locations. For those shooting in CA or NJ, the laws are something they're going to have to live with in any kind of a defensive situation (short of the complete demise of Western civilization), so a 10-round cap could certainly be implemented there. But as for myself (a new shooter, the kind you're looking for, right?) imposing artificial restrictions that I can't find a reason for is probably going to result in me looking for something else to spend my time on.

[Religious Shooter]

My rifle in the closet has a flashlight, an EoTech, back up irons, and a 30-round mag inserted. If that's not defensive, I don't know what is. I don't plan on defending myself, my family, or my property with a 10-round mag.

Are you under the impression that you have to use an actual 10 round magazine in IDPA? If you are... you can use 30's... just download them to 10.

I don't have a terribly great deal of experience in the realm of practical shooting, but I did shoot in Buzzdraw's practical rifle match a couple of weeks ago and thought it was a great format. One stage out of four started with a full mag, and the rest started with significantly downloaded ones. Reload behind cover whenever you like with a full mag, and keep chugging. Keeps things simple for the noob-wonders, such as myself.

Is there really a difference between a "significantly downloaded" magazine vs. a 30 rounder loaded to 10?

[lbritt]

Testing a shooters reloading skill can be done by stage design and briefing. The same way we test a shooters ability to shoot on the move, or strong hand / weak hand, or while kneeling/prone, etc.,etc. We are not required to use these skills on every single stage. Reloading is a good skill to be tested.... but on every stage???? Mag caps are not going to level the playing field either. The more prepared shooter is still going to win.

[AustinT]

My rifle in the closet has a flashlight, an EoTech, back up irons, and a 30-round mag inserted. If that's not defensive, I don't know what is. I don't plan on defending myself, my family, or my property with a 10-round mag.

Are you under the impression that you have to use an actual 10 round magazine in IDPA? If you are... you can use 30's... just download them to 10.

I don't have a terribly great deal of experience in the realm of practical shooting, but I did shoot in Buzzdraw's practical rifle match a couple of weeks ago and thought it was a great format. One stage out of four started with a full mag, and the rest started with significantly downloaded ones. Reload behind cover whenever you like with a full mag, and keep chugging. Keeps things simple for the noob-wonders, such as myself.

Is there really a difference between a "significantly downloaded" magazine vs. a 30 rounder loaded to 10?

No, I realize 30's are cool.

I was under the impression that starting with a downloaded magazine was supposed to either simulate already having been firing, or picking up some else's weapon. Limiting to 10 rounds in every mag doesn't allow reloading with a fresh, full mag.

[Religious Shooter]

I'm getting the feeling that some of the people either have never shot an IDPA match before or are shooting something that isn't true blue IDPA.

My take on it is that IDPA is geared more towards the defensive use of the firearm. Considereably more so than either USPSA or the IMGA matches.

Given that... take a look at the average gunfight. The rounds that are actually required are pretty low. For example take two extreme incidents: the Miami FBI shootout and the North Hollywood bank robbery. Hundreds of rounds expended. But in each incidence all the good guys needed were two good hits. That's it. Two good hits from a rifle/shotgun/pistol would have ended it.

As such IDPA has low round counts. 18 rds max per string to be exact. There are no 30-45 round field courses in IDPA that is typically found in the USPSA/IMGA matches. If you see 30-45 rounds expended in a real gunfight... 95+% of those shots were either out right misses, were poor hits or the gunfight was military. I'd like to think that for shorter range stages that the average IDPA shooter is not going to miss 9 out of 10 times.

IMHO the typical stage that adheres to IDPA's spirit will have at the most 5 targets. That represents 5 adversaries. Usually 10 rounds. The stages usually have strings that bumps up the stage's round count.

You don't need 30 rounders, 40's or Betas to shoot IDPA.

[kdmoore]

Hmmm, sounds like we arent talking about the differences of the 2 organizations first we havent been bringing up uspsa(or havent you figured that out). We are talking 3-gun, non uspsa sanctioned and the preferred method of running the match. Nobody has been talking issues of cover....

Freestyle and cover were mentioned just above my post. Haven't seen the rules of nonUSPSA matches, but I didn't think they had a "freestyle as a core principal" explicitally stated. I don't see this as bad or good, just the differences that exist. To me that's where the thread was starting to head (it didn't go there).

...but if I cant carry ammo on my shotgun and load more than 10 rounds in a mag, then it is no thank you and we have tried it and it doesnt work. If you defend your property with a shotgun are you gpoing to have a side saddle with ammo on it or are you going to call time out while you get your shotgun sheel pouches out and on your person. My personal ar for home defense is loaded with 2 30 round mags cinched together so I dont have to worry about carryin ammo in my truly real world scenarios.

Other than the capped mags, this sounds like ESG to me? Actually, the idea to allow gun mounted ammo in all divisions seems to be under consideration over on the IDPA forum.

[benny hill]

The average hit in law enforcement is about 1 out of 4-5 rds fired. Public shootings are about 5-6 per 1 hit. Apply this to IDPA matches that require 18 hits a stage & you will need about 90 rds fired in the real world & sence IDPA is geared toward the real thing.............. I need a couple of 30 rd mags.

[scirocco38s]

The average hit in law enforcement is about 1 out of 4-5 rds fired. Public shootings are about 5-6 per 1 hit. Apply this to IDPA matches that require 18 hits a stage & you will need about 90 rds fired in the real world & sence IDPA is geared toward the real thing.............. I need a couple of 30 rd mags.

You da man Benny.

[Religious Shooter]

The average hit in law enforcement is about 1 out of 4-5 rds fired. Public shootings are about 5-6 per 1 hit. Apply this to IDPA matches that require 18 hits a stage & you will need about 90 rds fired in the real world & sence IDPA is geared toward the real thing.............. I need a couple of 30 rd mags.

I don't have problem with that as long as you actually have a hit percentage of 1 out of 4/5 or 1 out of 5/6 rounds.

That would be some funny shjt if people actually shot like that. 18 shots required... 108 rounds fired.

NOTE: I just realized that they do! (In real incidents.)

Edited October 26, 2007 by Religious Shooter

[benny hill]

makes it kind of silly to only carry 10 rds in your pistol does'nt it.

[PHolsted]

Read this over on the idpaforum and thought it was good stuff and wanted to see what you guys thought.

This is from Ken Reed

IDPA DEFENSIVE MULTI-GUN

PROVISIONAL RULES

Proposal 4, Ken Reed 10/25/2007

Course Of Fire Rationale

All CsOF must either simulate a possible real life scenario or test skills that might reasonably be used in a real life self-defense confrontation. If you cannot honestly say, “that could happen,” it probably will not make a good IDPA Multi-Gun stage. We realize that not many self-defense shootings will involve multiple long guns and handguns, but the shooting positions and challenges must be kept reasonable. (borrowed from the writings of Ted Murphy)

SSG: STOCK SERVICE GUN

RIFLE: 5.56 x 45 mm ( .223 ) or larger, with iron sights only

SHOTGUN: Pump only, 12 or 20 gauge, with iron sights only

PISTOL: Any IDPA Legal Pistol or Revolver using IDPA legal capacity

ESG: ENHANCED SERVICE GUN

RIFLE: 5.56 x 45 mm ( .223 ) or larger, with optional single optic

SHOTGUN: Pump or semi-auto, 12 or 20 gauge, with iron sights only

PISTOL: Any IDPA Legal Pistol or Revolver using IDPA legal capacity

HWG: HEAVY WEIGHT GUN

RIFLE: 7.62 x 51 mm ( .308 ) caliber or larger, with optional single optic

SHOTGUN: Pump or semi-auto, 12 gauge only, with iron sights only

PISTOL: CDP or ESR using IDPA legal capacity

LWG: LIGHT WEIGHT GUN

RIFLE: 9 x 19 mm caliber or larger with optional single optic

SHOTGUN: Pump or semi-auto, 20 or 12 gauge, with iron sights only

PISTOL: Any IDPA Legal Pistol or Revolver using IDPA legal capacity

General Rifle Rules

• 10 round limit in mag, 11 rounds max in gun

• No bi-pods

• Gun mounted ammo is allowed, 10 rounds max per magazine

• Redi-Mags, mag cinches, butt cuffs and like products are allowed

• Extra ammo, 10 rounds max per magazine, may be carried on the body in pockets, carriers or in a bag or satchel. However the ammo and carriers can only be acquired after the start signal

• Compensators and Flash Hiders allowed, 1" diameter or less

• Steel targets will not be placed closer than 100 yards

• A majority of shots should occur within 50 yards, but an occasional target out to 100 yards should be encouraged

• Rifles may have lights attached before the start signal

• No Laser aiming devices

• The configuration of the rifle will not be altered during a match

General Shotgun Rules

• 5 rounds max in mag, 6 rounds max in gun

• Gun mounted ammo is allowed, 6 rounds max on gun

• Side-saddles, forearm and butt cuffs and like products are allowed

• Extra ammo may be carried on the body in pockets, carriers or in a bag or satchel. However the ammo and carriers can only be acquired after the start signal

• No compensators

• No speed loaders or box magazines

• Steel will not be placed closer than 10 yards when using shot shells

• Steel will not be placed closer than 30 yards when using slugs

• Shot shells will not be used with paper targets

• Only lead pellet shot shells are allowed, including buck shot

• Different ammunition, slugs or shot needed in a course of fire may not be pre-staged in the magazine. The magazine must be loaded with one size and type of ammo at the start.

• A majority of shots should occur within 35 yards, but an occasional target out to 100 yards with slugs should be encouraged

• IDPA rules on maximum percentage of steel targets in a stage, do not apply to shots with a shotgun

• Shotguns may have lights attached before the start signal

• No Laser aiming devices

• The configuration of the shotgun will not be altered during a match

General Handgun Rules

• All IDPA rules apply to IDPA DMG unless otherwise noted in this document

• For example: reloading rules for pistols will also apply to rifles

• For example, retain the magazine if there is a round in the chamber

• For example, use cover if available for reloading, etc.

General COF Rules

• 18 round maximum per string for pistol only or rifle only strings, 10 rounds for shotgun only strings.

• 23 round maximum per string if two firearms are used in a single string

• 28 round maximum per string if three firearms are used in a single string

• Rifles and shotguns must have a sling if they are carried on the body while another firearm is shot

Classification

• There will be one Classification per shooter for IDPA DMG. A Defensive Multigun Classifier of approximately 90 rounds, that requires the pistol, rifle and shotgun to be shot in different stages will be created. Expect it to look much like the current IDPA Classifier, with longer distances for shotgun and rifle.

Rationale For This Proposal:

IDPA HG has published a set of Provisional IDPA DMG rules, and asked for suggestions and comments. This proposal is a suggestion to stimulate discussion.

First, the ever-popular round limits. Without round limits like seen above, the COF rationale will be followed by very few, and the "defensive" tone of this sport will be forever lost. It seems that the round limits and magazine loading limits have some to do with California's laws and the laws of foreign countries, but are just as important for keeping IDPA DMG true to its purpose. That said, the 18 round maximum per string in the IDPA HQ’s Provisional rules is amended to allow a few more rounds when two and three guns are used in a string.

I can see what others are saying about allowing more rounds in a magazine and more rounds in a stage, and I have been wrestling with this myself. However, I have come to think this single change would then lead to this sport to be exactly like other 3-gun matches. That is, not defensive in nature at all. Most people simply will not design defensive in nature, limited round count stages if there is no rule.

Imagine if IDPA changed to a 35 round maximum round count rule for pistol matches. Instead of the mostly 15-18 round stages we have today, you would start seeing mostly 30-35 round stages. Not a bad thing, but probably not "it could happen" type defensive pistol stages. It would be a hose fest. We already have several handgun sports like that. IDPA is what it is, because of the 18 round maximum imposed, and the max magazine loading rules.

It seems that the world does not need another 3-gun sport like the ones we already have, they are excellent at what they do. Without the rules on round count, that will be what we get, just another one like we already have.

The world may not even need a defensive oriented 3-gun sport, but that is what IDPA HQ wants to find out. It seems that IDPA HQ is hoping to attract new shooters to 3-gun with a simpler, less expensive sport. This is similar to the way they attracted handgun shooters to IDPA with a simpler less expensive sport than existed before. The formula is known to work.

Second, ammo for reloading. When a long gun is used for self-defense, the defender will probably not take time to put on a tactical vest. They may however pickup ammo with their gun and carry it along with them or transfer it to the body. It seems that on-gun ammo is a logical choice for self-defense as well.

Third, equipment divisions. How many is too many, and how restrictive should they be? Four is a lot, but that number seems to make sense, to give everyone a place to play. SSG is the most basic division, and probably the least expensive equipment wise. ESG is like ESP is today, an experimenters’ playground. HVG is heavy metal, a hard recoiling rifle and handgun with a manually operated shotgun. A testosterone division if you will. LWG is another experimenters’ division. Which includes the easy to shoot carbine that may give up a lot at 50 yards and beyond.

Fourth, shotgun sights. It seems that very few people have optics on their self-defense shotgun.

Fifth, shooter classification. The proposal to have the shooter’s IDPA Classification be their IDPA DMG Classification may not be optimal. A new defensive DMG Classifier may need to be created. The only thing that seems certain is that there should be one Classification per Mulitgun shooter, not a separate one for each type of firearm. Aggregating these together would be arbitrary at best and not useful at worst.

What do you think?

Ken Reed

[p99shooter]

Awesome work Ken! These look great.

[scirocco38s]

Imagine if IDPA changed to a 35 round maximum round count rule for pistol matches. Instead of the mostly 15-18 round stages we have today, you would start seeing mostly 30-35 round stages. Not a bad thing, but probably not "it could happen" type defensive pistol stages. It would be a hose fest. We already have several handgun sports like that. IDPA is what it is, because of the 18 round maximum imposed, and the max magazine loading rules.

I have shot Idpa for many years(since1998) and when it first started we had an occassional 18 round stage. but most were in the 14-15 max area. Sometimes a 6 or 8 round stage. but most were 14-15. After a while things mutated into almost exclusively 12 round stages because they forced everyone to do a reload and it made it more revolver friendly, so I dont agree with your assertion that higher round count in multigun is going to equate to all stages being that way. All I have been saying is that real world(as Idpa likes to define it) is not a 10 round world, not even in the more enlightened states that have those limits. I am glad to see that someone now sees that having ammo on the gun is a good thing defensively. But multigun is a different thing altogether. If you look at some of the large multigun courses they are large because you start with say the shotgun, and shoot it until empty, then transition to your pistol shooting targets as you make way to your rifle(the real defensive weapon) and then finish the stage. In situations such as this you may shot 8-10 rounds of shotgun, maybe another 10-14 of pistol and finsh up with 20-25 rounds of rifle if you shoot clean and 35 if you dont. If you shoot reactive steel flash targets for distances of 50yds or more,(and you had better use flash steel if you wont to be able to scoe the match effeciently) even if it is 12 rounds required on the steel, people are going to miss and not know their zero or holdover for various distances and 12 rounds of steel can turn into 35 or 40 fast. Now bring into the mix that only 10 rounds are in the mag and the shooter has to carry alot of mags to shoot the stage when 2 would have been sufficient. Obviously if the stage only uses 2 of the 3 guns then your round count could drop drastically, especiaaly if rifle isnt used. If most of your courses of fire are 30 yds and less than it will require less mags or reloading but will also drop in appeal to people who shoot rifle good.

[Michael Brown]

I think that is a much more sensible set of rules than the first version.

I think it's quite good.

Michael Brown

[tightloop]

makes it kind of silly to only carry 10 rds in your pistol does'nt it.

Yeah, but if you dump rounds it will be the dreaded FDTR....LOL

[PHolsted]

makes it kind of silly to only carry 10 rds in your pistol does'nt it.

Yeah, but if you dump rounds it will be the dreaded FDTR....LOL

And how are these two statements helping shape the the proposed IDPA multi-gun rules?

Come on guys.... We are talking about IDPA lets keep it on topic.

I believe proposed rules by Ken Reed are very well stated and are a great fit with IDPA.

Do I like and agree with them all....no but Do I like and agree with all of USPSA's rules no...

From a shooters stand point I would also like to see higher round count but can completely understand why the limits are there. Just this last weekend our club hosted a carbine match with 4 stages. Each stage had no more than 40 rounds per stage and they could have been easily changed to two strings per stage and kept under the 18 round stage limit and would have been just as fun.

With a little thought and good stage design it would be no problem to hold a great match ran by these rules.

Just my .02

[Mike P]

Well, it is much better than before, but the reasoning behind the ten round limit for rifle is still not very convincing to me. I mean really, no tactical vest and of course no empty mag pouches because no one would be appointed in such a way in "real life". O.K. Now who would have their defensive weapon downloaded to less than half capacity in "real life" only to have ten more in another mag that they have to grab and reload from when they could have put all twenty of them in the same mag to begin with? It still doesn't make good sense from a competition or defensive standpoint.

Mike

[Trail3]

Rules I can live with. Does it have some issues, yes, but not a problem to keep me

away and I will help promote it with my local club.

Looking forward to having a 3 gun IDPA West Coast Nationals.

Finally, we can have a national 3 gun match in Ca.

[Religious Shooter]

Wow! Those rules look good.

[Merlin Orr]

Excellent! It looks like we are all invited to play. We all know the game played at this house. We can accept the invitation or decline to participate. All of this is for each and every individual to determine.

IMO what we Do Not need to do is receive our invitation then piss and moan about what game our host is playing...

<snip>It seems that the world does not need another 3-gun sport like the ones we already have, they are excellent at what they do. Without the rules on round count, that will be what we get, just another one like we already have.

The world may not even need a defensive oriented 3-gun sport, but that is what IDPA HQ wants to find out. It seems that IDPA HQ is hoping to attract new shooters to 3-gun with a simpler, less expensive sport. This is similar to the way they attracted handgun shooters to IDPA with a simpler less expensive sport than existed before. The formula is known to work.

What do you think? <snip>

Ken Reed

[Wakal]

No "box magazines"? I guess they want to keep this for antique shotguns only. Interesting choice. I will have to keep playing every other 3-Gun game with modern equipment. I do have a 1897 Trench Gun that should work out for this oldy timey shooting game, on reflection...

Alex

[kdmoore]

No "box magazines"? I guess they want to keep this for antique shotguns only. Interesting choice. I will have to keep playing every other 3-Gun game with modern equipment. I do have a 1897 Trench Gun that should work out for this oldy timey shooting game, on reflection...

Sing it bro! I've mentioned this a few times along the way. Given a 5 +1 start, and the potential for a couple of reloads. And given the select slug stages that are encouraged ... I don't believe the box fed shotties will run away from the field, and could easily be detrimental in many of these stages.

I haven't thought it all of the way thru, but I'm pretty sure that the field would be pretty level.

To Robert Ray and company, as someone who shoots a Saiga in these games, I'd be happy to discuss the likely impact of including them. Given a description of several "typical" stages, I'd be happy to set them up and run them on my home range and let you know about the times that could be expected. Don't know if the USPSA would be that different either?

Edited November 2, 2007 by kdmoore

[Mike P]

Excellent! It looks like we are all invited to play. We all know the game played at this house. We can accept the invitation or decline to participate. All of this is for each and every individual to determine.

IMO what we Do Not need to do is receive our invitation then piss and moan about what game our host is playing...

Fair enough.

Time now to go practice my reloads for 3-gun matches where I may actually NEED one.

Mike

[uscbigdawg]

Great job! You have a new shooter to IDPA.

Guess I gotta get another Benelli.

Rich