9mm major for Limited

[Mick]

Along with Jake's point of making an OPEN .40 is the only reason I would shoot Major 9 in my OPEN guns is the cost of brass which is virtually free. The longer SUPER case has always worked better for me in the OPEN gun.

I too have considered an OPEN .40 because the brass IS EASIER TO COME BY THAN SUPERS ETC...

Some of us have really good sources for brass and an OPEN .40 only has a disadvantage in mag capacity which

isn't really that bad unless you're shooting a 27 round "stand and blast".

I've shot several OPEN matches with my LTD .40 gun and declared OPEN-MAJOR.

I even had a .40 170mm mag for one that held 24 rounds reloadable.

I used the Miami Vice 45 OPEN IMM gun for a local match which is OPEN with iron sights. If there a step or two to reload there isn't a disadvantage.

I may even let Benny rebarrel my 5" Fat Free with a threaded barrel & comp for the TEXAS OPEN next year and then cut off the threads after the match and bring it back to LTD.

[eerw]

Making 9mm major doesn't really change anything except for the minor upheavel it would cause by making shooters switch or quit. the playing field would be equal and those on top would still be there..

and like I said..It's limited.. limited on no optics, no mag over 140 and no caliber under .40..

I am not against it..but feel no strong compelling arguement for it..

play ball!!!!

Edited August 27, 2007 by eerw

[Gary Stevens]

The issue with me has always been the obsolesence of current guns and the investments that have been made in them. While I think a 9/38 super at major would be a handful in a Limited gun, the name of the game is numbers of rounds in the magazine. Allow a 9/38 super in Limited and the race will be on again to build the highest capacity gun available. Many of us are looking for an extended period of stability in both rules and equipment.

As an aside, I tried to get 9/38 super major in L-10 as 10 rounds is 10 rounds, no capacity issues involved. That went over like a brick.

Gary

[GentlemanJim]

Not another arms race

we got wiped out by the last one.

Jim

[Kingman]

Thinking back that when the .40 was decided on the entire premise of the ammo at major had to be commercially available. I recall that rule and when the .40 idea came along as had to be at least that size.

They were trying to simulate somewhat real world equipment back when limited first started. I agree with the premise of not allowing under .40 for major.

I would not have a problem with the idea that they allow a caliber to make major if 3 companies produce ammo for it.

[Adam B]

This actually goes back to the 356 TSW.

Back then there had to be available three different manufacture loads to make major.

S&W introduced the 356TSW and shortly there after it came down that in order to make major you were limited to a minimum of .40/10mm.

I had one of those dame performance center .356 TSW, pretty nice gun, for a factory gun, but no good after they changed the rules.

[ipscbob]

I don't know about a lot of other people, but for me I would not be shooting OPEN if 9 Major was not allowed!! I think a lot of other folks would not be shooting OPEN either. Just read the forum comments every time a sweet 38S OPEN gun is put up for sale, "IF that was 9 major I'd be all over it". I hear comments all the time at local matches about the high cost of shooting 38S now. I get quite a few questions about who built my gun, whats my load..........

Wow! Quite a mouthful there!

[Jake Di Vita]

Z,

The reason is all 38 and 9 open guns have been finnicky for me. I have actually seen just about every one malfunction. A .40 is my best chance of getting a gun that runs perfectly. So I lose 4 rounds out of the big stick.....big deal, that's why I practice reloading.

[open17]

To make a point.

When I can get enough cash to buy another Open gun....it will probably be a .40.

Really not that dumb an idea. I made it to (and am stuck in) B Open with a Glock 35.

I shoot 9 major open now, but the 40 had it's good points.

You can use factory ammo.

Major PF 40 in an open gun is SOFT.

Downsides: 21 vs 24 rds in a 140 mag, 24-25 vs 28-29 in a 170 mag. It really wasn't that

big a deal. Once in a while it would cost an extra reload, but I never felt all that round count disadvantaged.

[zhunter]

Z,

The reason is all 38 and 9 open guns have been finnicky for me. I have actually seen just about every one malfunction. A .40 is my best chance of getting a gun that runs perfectly. So I lose 4 rounds out of the big stick.....big deal, that's why I practice reloading.

Thanks Jake, I was curious.

[Ted Murphy]

I think the basic premise of allowing 9mm major in limited is somewhat noble; you are trying to allow a gun with cheaper components to be competitive in that division.

However, the fact is there would be a capacity advantage which would create an arms race and make a lot of shooters most unhappy.

So.... I know this is somewhat blasphemous, but perhaps a capacity limit on the 9mm major Limited 140mm magazine capacity (limiting to capacity to what the top .40's achieve- after all, it is "limited" division) would allow people to shoot 9mm major in limited, without creating an arms race?

Edited August 28, 2007 by Ted Murphy

[Merlin Orr]

I also think we should allow 9 mm with a limit on how many rounds that may be loaded in any magazine. In keeping with this same line we should set a limit on how fast shooters can run courses of fire and a minimum time limit on classifiers. This will ensure parity in our sport for the shooters who can't afford to play in the "arms race" or those of us (such as myself) who are old, overweight and less talented.

[Jim Norman]

I think the basic premise of allowing 9mm major in limited is somewhat noble; you are trying to allow a gun with cheaper components to be competitive in that division.

However, the fact is there would be a capacity advantage which would create an arms race and make a lot of shooters most unhappy.

So.... I know this is somewhat blasphemous, but perhaps a capacity limit on the 9mm major Limited 140mm magazine capacity (limiting to capacity to what the top .40's achieve- after all, it is "limited" division) would allow people to shoot 9mm major in limited, without creating an arms race?

I think that a capacity limit would address the concerns however it would mean that RO's would have to be able to catch shooters running 23 rounds w/o a reload, that is a lot to do on a stage, 10 rounds is fairly simple, you can look at the arrays and look at the dropped mags, 23 rounds would be near to impossible opening up the game to liklihood of rampent cheating, or simply errors on the part of competitors.

A Para 40. can hold 20 +1 and a few people manage 21+1, but not reloadable. S*I generally run 1-2 rounds less. What is the cut off? How is it enforced?

9mm major is not a factory load, at least I don't know of any. Allowing 9mm major in Open has no net effect on the competition, it does in Limited.

Gary indicated that he would be in favor of L1- allowing 9mm Major. On first pass this sounds OK, but my concern is that it would open the floodgates to 9mm Major in Limited. That said, I would not have a problem, at least on first look, exploring 9mm Major in Single Stack. But even here we are looking at a place where a .45 can play, 9mm would skew that field as well.

My vote would be leave well enough alone. Limited/Limited-10 as a .40 game, Open is fine with 9mm bullet diameter.

Only consideration I leave open is .357 Sig as a major round. Capacity is not an issue here, arguably component cost is less and there are a fair number of people that are issued 357Sig. It doesn't seem right to make a gun that arguably make major out of the box shoot minor.

Jim

[Gregory_k]

USPSA ever recover when the SS went the way of the Dodo?

[Flyin40]

Z,

The reason is all 38 and 9 open guns have been finnicky for me. I have actually seen just about every one malfunction. A .40 is my best chance of getting a gun that runs perfectly. So I lose 4 rounds out of the big stick.....big deal, that's why I practice reloading.

Ah......the 40 Open. I love mine, I haven't had one jam all yr. And Jake, all 3 of my bigsticks run 26+1, there has been a few times having a 30rd mag would of changed a reload spot buts its very few and far between. I always thought I would eventually go to a 38super or 9mm once I shot my barrel out but after this yr I'm not sure I will.

Jake, Your more than welcome to try out my 40 before you decide what to go with. See how you like the feel. Thomas Moore tried it out at the Targeting Ed match.

Flyin40

[Jake Di Vita]

Thanks John. I'll take you up on that.

[Alan Meek]

Z,

The reason is all 38 and 9 open guns have been finnicky for me. I have actually seen just about every one malfunction. A .40 is my best chance of getting a gun that runs perfectly. So I lose 4 rounds out of the big stick.....big deal, that's why I practice reloading.

Ah......the 40 Open. I love mine, I haven't had one jam all yr. And Jake, all 3 of my bigsticks run 26+1, there has been a few times having a 30rd mag would of changed a reload spot buts its very few and far between. I always thought I would eventually go to a 38super or 9mm once I shot my barrel out but after this yr I'm not sure I will.

Jake, Your more than welcome to try out my 40 before you decide what to go with. See how you like the feel. Thomas Moore tried it out at the Targeting Ed match.

Flyin40

I miss my .40 Open

My Major 9's are fine but I have not noticed any real difference with my overall performances between the two. I have been considering going back to shooting .40 Open.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Alan Meek

[ipscbob]

Both of my open guns are 38supercomp but I am considering a 40SW for the next one just to mix things up and keep life interesting Anything over 23-24 rounds and I plan a reload anyway. My 170s hold 28 reloadable but I like knowing I have some margin and a reload off the clock is almost always possible.

[ChuckS]

I have been considering going back to shooting .40 Open.

Come on back, Alan! I am having fun with it this year...

Later,

Chuck

[Ted Murphy]

I think that a capacity limit would address the concerns however it would mean that RO's would have to be able to catch shooters running 23 rounds w/o a reload, that is a lot to do on a stage, 10 rounds is fairly simple, you can look at the arrays and look at the dropped mags, 23 rounds would be near to impossible opening up the game to liklihood of rampent cheating, or simply errors on the part of competitors.

Not every timer does it, but mine all give you a round count on the screen. When the shooter does a reload, you can quickly look down to see what the round count is. That's what I do. But you are right, that does complicate things.

[Nik Habicht]

The counters on shot timers aren't accurate enough to be used for this; experienced R.O.s routinely glance at the display as the shooter is firing the last round to ensure that they are getting an accurate recording of the final shot.....

[ima45dv8]

The counters on shot timers aren't accurate enough to be used for this; experienced R.O.s routinely glance at the display as the shooter is firing the last round to ensure that they are getting an accurate recording of the final shot.....

Round counts on the timer are especially "iffy" indoors, too.

[JFD]

While I'm not overly concerned either way, I don't see Major 9 in Limited as being anything too negative.

I don't think the additional ammo would be any big deal. I usually have reloading options aplenty starting with 21+1 and reloading to 20 round mags, mostly leaving 4 rounds or so in the first mag I drop. What I see happening if Major 9 was allowed is 24 round stages becoming history.

I haven't heard great things about reliability when it comes to 9mm in the 1911/2011 platform. I don't have a problem with anyone shooting cheaper with Major 9 in Limited. Nasty recoil + possible reliability problems + still having to reload means I don't find them too threatening.

There's no way in hell I'd choose to shoot my SS .38 Super or 9mm with major loads in L-10 over my SS .45. No capacity difference, more recoil and the mags are much harder to seat. I also lose a lot of reliability with 9mm over .38 Super even if the brass is cheaper. If someone wants that option, then let them have at it.

[Jim Norman]

People say tha ta few rounds don't make a difference.

I don't think the additional ammo would be any big deal. I usually have reloading options aplenty starting with 21+1 and reloading to 20 round mags, mostly leaving 4 rounds or so in the first mag I drop.

But you would arguable change where you reload and also you would have a greater margin of safety with 24-5 rounds than with 20-1 rounds. It will make a difference. Look at IPSC Production, anyone really seriously shooting a 14 round gun? not when Glocks and ohters hold 17-19. Why? Round count, reloads and capacity.

If we have 9mm major in Limited, we will have a new equipment race.

Also, and this does not affect he US, but it could affect other areas, currently you need a caliber that starts with a 4 to shoot major, so some governments allow a .40 where otherwise they would not. IF we allow 9mm major, that exemption could go the way of the do-do

Jim

Edited August 29, 2007 by Jim Norman

[tightloop]

Looking back to the early 80's I shot thru the IPSC Wars equipmant race...stock gun, 6" bbl, pin gun with weight on the bbl, pin gun with holes int he weight, one slot comps, multi slot comps...that was an equipment race that did not force out any shooters..

The race now is to see how many damn rounds you can force into your mag...

The problem I have is with the extended magazines....make every division shoot mags that are flush with the frame with no extended pads etc, make major .40 or above and bring back some semblence of sanity to the sport...the Open shooters are not the biggest part of the shooter pool anyway and they will adapt to the new rules...the Limited shooters will just shoot a reduced number of rounds B4 reloading of go to Open if they can't stand the reloading pressure..That is what is making the carnival/Monkey Toss stages stickaround...having to design a stage where you can utilize a 29 round mag to make the Open and Limited guys happy...

It is just peculiar to have a rule relevant to one division only..and as far as someone picking up a 9mm Maj round off the ground..if you do away with that rule, no problem anymore..it was not meant to be major anyway....The way to control the equipment ramp up is to control the round count to a managable level, nothing more..

It still confuses me to try to understand why Open is the only place it can play..