JThompson Posted July 14, 2008 Share Posted July 14, 2008 Maybe shooting 9mm is "false ecomomy"...? A whole bunch of Open shooters sure bought into it.... My thoughts .... If 9mm Major was deemed to be "Legal" starting tomorrow - a bunch of 9mm guns would be sold for Limited Class and in a few months a bunch of 9mm Limited guns would be for sale. A few shooters with Really good grips and recoil control might shoot them and reap a small benefit due to the capacity ( on a few rare stages) while at the same time loosing time fighting the harsh kick of Major 9. Same as with 9mm Open guns. This thread is a tempest in a tea pot. Agreed. That's why I made one comment and let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Note: thread merged. - Admin. Since 9-Major has established itself as legit and safe in Open, and many shooters are shooting Open Glocks, now Open M&Ps, etc... Is it time they allowed 9-Major in Limited. I'd like to run my Pro Series 9mm in Limited Major, assuming I make power factor. I can load 24/25 rounds and fit in the box! I can shoot Minor/Production, and Major/Limited with the same gun. Just add extensions and a mag-well. I think it's time... Anyone else agree? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I agree with you but we seem to be in the minority. http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...hl=major++minor I think much of the resistance is that the .40 cal limited guns would be obsolete as you could get extra rounds in the 9mm limited gun. 22+1 are available (at a price) in .40. I can get 23+1 in 9 that fits the gauge. 24+1 in 9mm might be possible. As I mention in the previous thread, limit mag capacity to whatever a .40 can hold and let the shooter determine if the additional felt recoil is worth the difference in bullet prices (all other component prices are probably very close to each other) and not having to spend as much in guts/pads/tuning to get that last round or two in .40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Abrahams Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Since 9-Major has established itself as legit and safe in Open, and many shooters are shooting Open Glocks, now Open M&Ps, etc...Is it time they allowed 9-Major in Limited. I'd like to run my Pro Series 9mm in Limited Major, assuming I make power factor. I can load 24/25 rounds and fit in the box! I can shoot Minor/Production, and Major/Limited with the same gun. Just add extensions and a mag-well. I think it's time... Anyone else agree? Jeff I agree your proposition, it makes perfect sense. However, i would vote to keep a minimum of 40 cal for major for two reasons: 1)I think that is one of the cool things about Limited that distinguishes it from Open. 2)To me requiring the larger caliber kind of makes Limited a more "real world" defense gun. you know, larger caliber and iron sights. Now take that with a grain of salt, i realize production is 9mm and no one uses their limited gun for carry. just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 So you think that a bunch of members should have to replace one or more Limited guns in order to be able to keep up in the new capacity race? Not gonna happen unless Limited turns into something like L-20, with a max stated capacity in all mags after the start signal..... The Board remembers the equipment wars of the late 80s, early 90s where most members were replacing guns almost as soon as they arrived from being built.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwaystryin Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 I would like to see 9mm Major in Limited as well. Cheaper ammo components is a big plus as well. A factory 9mm +P+ is a real world 9 major. Its used in the real world everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 What cheaper components? you care to put some numbers with that ? 9mm major Gunpowder 9mm major uses more than 40 so fewer shots per pound, Brass, I can scrounge enough free 40 to shoot, 9 is a little easier but no one is paying me to get it so free is free. Bullets, because of lower velocity you can use Moly or cast lead in a 40, not gonna do that with major 9, Besides this is a sport with elected reps, yeh sometimes they go off on a tangent but I dont think they would ever vote to alienate as many shooters as there are. We can also face reality here, you allow 9 major you'll have a whole bunch of cheaters. I also have to ask Why? what will it add to the sport ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 So you think that a bunch of members should have to replace one or more Limited guns in order to be able to keep up in the new capacity race? Not gonna happen unless Limited turns into something like L-20, with a max stated capacity in all mags after the start signal.....The Board remembers the equipment wars of the late 80s, early 90s where most members were replacing guns almost as soon as they arrived from being built.... How did .40 get to be the standard by witch all things limited are judged. Where is the outcry for the .45 guys shooting SS or L-10 that want to shoot straight limited? Seems kinda like an odd argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dqshooter Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 :cheers:Power factor should be power factor. If you can't make PF you shoot minor, if you make it you shoot major. I hear all the BS about the equipment wars that will happen. If you want to shoot a $3,000 dollar gun with all the bells and wistles you will if not you won't. I think the competition would be good for the industry and the sport, the "S__" companies make great guns have great service and do alot for the sport. However some of their guns are out of reach price wise for eveyone, there are some great guns out there. If you can get a few more rounds in the gun and hit what you are shooting at so be it. Just my 2 Cents! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Just shoot minor in Limited (with your 9mm) you can have the higher capacity mag. You just suffer the points difference. Settled no need to change anything. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 21, 2009 Share Posted September 21, 2009 Please folks, do a search before starting a thread like this. There are few new ideas. If something just occurred to you for the first time...we've probably beat it to death already on the forum. Try a search first. Threads merged, again. - Admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 :cheers:Power factor should be power factor. If you can't make PF you shoot minor, if you make it you shoot major. I hear all the BS about the equipment wars that will happen. If you want to shoot a $3,000 dollar gun with all the bells and wistles you will if not you won't. I think the competition would be good for the industry and the sport, the "S__" companies make great guns have great service and do alot for the sport. However some of their guns are out of reach price wise for eveyone, there are some great guns out there. If you can get a few more rounds in the gun and hit what you are shooting at so be it. Just my 2 Cents! The idea of an equipment wars isn't BS. It happened once. How do I know? I was pretty much forced out of active competition in the early 90s because I was on active duty and was broke. To be competitive I needed to replace my single stack racegun with either a Caspian or McCormick (now S_I) hi-cap gun and I didn't have the money to buy mags for one of those, much less a gun, so I stopped shooting matches. I won't go so far as to say it would kill Limited, but it would make a huge, negative dent in it. There are lots of folks shooting Limited with guns far less expensive than $3K....Glocks, XD's, M&Ps, Para, EAA Witness etc, so claiming that everybody is already spending a ton of money on Limited and a simple change like this will just make them spend a little more to convert guns is silly. If you want to push the limits and don't mind spending lots of money we have a division for you, it's called Open I shoot more Open than anything else, and I've got something like $8 or $9K tied up in two Open guns (hope the wifey doesn't read this!) so it's not like I'm trying to be cheap, but I wouldn't shoot Limited any longer either....just not going to shell out more money to replace my perfectly suitable Limited gun. The funny thing is that it's not like there's a whole bunch of folks out there with hi-cap 9 Major S_I's (or any other brand) that would be legal for Limited (i.e. aren't comp'd/scoped), so we'd be changing the rules for a handful of folks that already have a gun that fits that description, or the handful that are planning on buying a new gun, but want it to be in 9 Major. The great thing is no matter how much talk we see about it here, 9 Major for Limited simply isn't going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 So you think that a bunch of members should have to replace one or more Limited guns in order to be able to keep up in the new capacity race? Not gonna happen unless Limited turns into something like L-20, with a max stated capacity in all mags after the start signal.....The Board remembers the equipment wars of the late 80s, early 90s where most members were replacing guns almost as soon as they arrived from being built.... Why should limited be exempt from changes that screw with their equipment? There doesn't seem to be a problem with changing the rules for Production to make the rules more in-line the "intent" of the BoD. Pot meet kettle. Oh yeah, now I remember, too many members that 'count' would be screwed my 9 Major in Limited. My mistake, sorry.... Eric Budd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 But the flip side is that someone that has started shooting in production is now forced to spend more money to be competitive in Limited. Also there is a big difference in having to replace a single stack to compete with a hi-cap and thinking you need to replace a hi-cap with a higher cap gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBudd Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 But the flip side is that someone that has started shooting in production is now forced to spend more money to be competitive in Limited. Also there is a big difference in having to replace a single stack to compete with a hi-cap and thinking you need to replace a hi-cap with a higher cap gun. The probelm I see is that triggers were ruled illegal after they were legal for several years. Firing Pin blocks can no longer be removed but magazine safeties can. There were lots of 'clarifications' after the rules were finalized (for at least three years) with the Blue Book. Production is the red-headed stepchild of USPSA. When changes are suggested for Limited and Open we keep being reminded how $$$ shooters have invested in gear. That is never mentioned for Production.... Unfair as it sounds, I remain convinced that production would be more stabe if more members of the BoD shot production on a regular basis. This is just my opinion and may not have anything to do with the facts. I just need a better argument for not allowing 9mm Major in Limited is that some people might want to replace guns to get a capacity advantage. To be fair, there is no way I'd replace my 20+1 CZ Tac Sport to get a few rounds it it meant shooting 9 Major (or 38 Super) without a comp. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 So you think that a bunch of members should have to replace one or more Limited guns in order to be able to keep up in the new capacity race? Not gonna happen unless Limited turns into something like L-20, with a max stated capacity in all mags after the start signal.....The Board remembers the equipment wars of the late 80s, early 90s where most members were replacing guns almost as soon as they arrived from being built.... Why should limited be exempt from changes that screw with their equipment? There doesn't seem to be a problem with changing the rules for Production to make the rules more in-line the "intent" of the BoD. Pot meet kettle. Oh yeah, now I remember, too many members that 'count' would be screwed my 9 Major in Limited. My mistake, sorry.... Eric Budd Limited has had it's rules set pretty much the same for many years. If my memory is right Production is only 5 or 7 years old (depending on whether you count "Factory gun" prior to Prod). Obviously it takes a while to get things pretty much set the way they should be. The changes to Production have been pretty minor of late and wouldn't require replacing an entire gun...maybe swapping a few parts back in/out, but that's about it. Changing Limited would require those that want to be competitive to replace or significantly rebuild their guns (in most cases) since probably 85% of the folks shooting Limited are using an S_I platform. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokshwn Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Why should limited be exempt from changes that screw with their equipment? There doesn't seem to be a problem with changing the rules for Production to make the rules more in-line the "intent" of the BoD. Pot meet kettle. Oh yeah, now I remember, too many members that 'count' would be screwed my 9 Major in Limited. My mistake, sorry....Eric Budd Could you please explain how you as a member who doesn't "count" is getting screwed by not allowing 9mm major in Limited? No one says that limited rules cannot be changed, but if you want to cause the major effect that this particular change would bring what exactly is the benefit that out weighs those changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 But the flip side is that someone that has started shooting in production is now forced to spend more money to be competitive in Limited. Also there is a big difference in having to replace a single stack to compete with a hi-cap and thinking you need to replace a hi-cap with a higher cap gun. Trying to validate a change to Limited because of it's impact on Production shooters who also want to shoot Limited is apples-to-oranges. Flip that one and if you're already shooting Limited with an S_I why should you be forced to spend money to be able to shoot Production? Heck, they should be able to shoot a single action in Production by your logic. When the equipment wars started virtually everybody was shooting a single stack. Hi-caps came out and if you wanted to continue to be competitive you had to buy a hi-cap gun, there wasn't an alternative (like another division). So, it isn't any different than replacing one hi-cap with a higher, hi-cap...to be competitive you'll have to spend the money for that higher hi-cap or allow the rest of the field to have an advantage over you caused by a rule change to cater to a tiny fraction of the folks out there. There simply aren't tons of folks out there who aren't competiting in Limited that think "gee, if they allowed Major 9 in Limited I might give it a try with this gun I already have that would be perfect". There might be a handful, but changing the rules for them, while hurting the thousands of folks who are already shooting Limited is crazy. For those who don't already have a Limited gun it's simple....get something .40 or larger, shoot Minor with something smaller, or pick another division. I get most ill when I read the folks that complain that they should be allowed to shoot 9 Major in Limited to save costs. Hey, if you're pinching pennies shoot lead/moly in .40 and call it good. If that's still too expensive, it's time for another division....this coming from someone that was forced out of the sport due to finances at one point and having shot lots of lead through an Open gun because it was the only way I could afford it while in college. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 Personally, I agree with the Major PF is Major PF-period. It makes it or it doesn't. Bullet diameter shouldn't matter. That said, if I shoot Limited (seldom) I use my P14 Para 45 acp. Has 18 + 1 capacity. Not ideal but I could give a rats ass. I refuse spending a fortune on a 40 Cal pistol since I don't own a 40 anything, never liked them, don't load for it, and don't want to. I could shoot my 9mm P18 Para with 22+1 capacity. And I have shot it with my Major 9 loads from my open gun. Guess what.........an uncomped 9mm major recoils more than a stock 40 or 45 ACP. So even if 9mm Major was allowed in Limited, I would give up the 4 rounds to shoot the 45 that is actually smoother and faster for me to shoot accurately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 It is funny that everyone that wants to change the rules and allow 9 major in Limited are not worried about the mag capacity difference because they will have the advantage over the 40's. (more in their mag than the 40 guys.) As the rules are now they will not shoot limited shooting 9mm minor because they are at a disadvantage with the points. Go figure. If it did change I may as well get out of Limited and buy a couple open guns. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 It is funny that everyone that wants to change the rules and allow 9 major in Limited are not worried about the mag capacity difference because they will have the advantage over the 40's. (more in their mag than the 40 guys.) As the rules are now they will not shoot limited shooting 9mm minor because they are at a disadvantage with the points. Go figure.If it did change I may as well get out of Limited and buy a couple open guns. BK Almost as funny as guys that have .40 limited guns that never want to see any changes because they enjoy the advantage over .45 guys. Out of curiosity, what would be the capacity difference? In the worst case maybe 2-3 rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 It is funny that everyone that wants to change the rules and allow 9 major in Limited are not worried about the mag capacity difference because they will have the advantage over the 40's. (more in their mag than the 40 guys.) As the rules are now they will not shoot limited shooting 9mm minor because they are at a disadvantage with the points. Go figure.If it did change I may as well get out of Limited and buy a couple open guns. BK Almost as funny as guys that have .40 limited guns that never want to see any changes because they enjoy the advantage over .45 guys. Out of curiosity, what would be the capacity difference? In the worst case maybe 2-3 rounds? What's the difference between major and minor? 1 point for a C and 1 point for a D. The 40 over the 45 guys I believe that is the equipment war they are trying to avoid. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strick Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 What's the difference between major and minor? 1 point for a C and 1 point for a D. The 40 over the 45 guys I believe that is the equipment war they are trying to avoid. BK So shooting minor and getting less points for the same hits seems fair to you as long as you don't have 2 less rounds to shoot. Gotcha. I understand the past "wars" but there was also a huge difference in .45 single stack and a big ole double stack .40. Again what is the worst case scenario in capacity differences between a .40 and 9mm? I am guessing that a XDm with base pads will give you around 23 maybe 24, what is the normal for Limited now? I just don't get the "you can't change it now because all us .40 guys like it the way it is". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkeeler Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) What's the difference between major and minor? 1 point for a C and 1 point for a D. The 40 over the 45 guys I believe that is the equipment war they are trying to avoid. BK So shooting minor and getting less points for the same hits seems fair to you as long as you don't have 2 less rounds to shoot. Gotcha. I understand the past "wars" but there was also a huge difference in .45 single stack and a big ole double stack .40. Again what is the worst case scenario in capacity differences between a .40 and 9mm? I am guessing that a XDm with base pads will give you around 23 maybe 24, what is the normal for Limited now? I just don't get the "you can't change it now because all us .40 guys like it the way it is". I currently get 20 rounds in a mag if I want to spend more I could probably get a mag with 21 and would run reliably. But if they would change the rules and let 9 major in Limited I might as well just buy a couple open guns and move to open as to buy new Limited equipment or quit all together. I have only been shooting Limited for a couple seasons. 3 or 4 rounds in a mag is a big advantage. I don't think the rule needs to be changed. No one is stopping anyone from shooting Limited with 9mm minor hey you have more rounds and lower PF so I feel that the points difference makes it even. Yes you can finish in the top 20 shooting minor. Look at the open nationals results. Hell B.J. finished 5th at the single stack nationals shooting minor. BK Edited September 22, 2009 by bkeeler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spd522 Posted September 22, 2009 Share Posted September 22, 2009 (edited) I don't think the couple more possible rounds is really the issue. There are guys who will beat open shooters with a single stack. It boils down to the same thing it has always been when new inovations or products enter the game. It's a mentality that if you don't have the latest whizrocket, you can't compete. You spent all this money on a custom gun and then someone comes out with an alternative to what you have. It may not be any better but you believe someone is getting an advantage so the whining starts. That's BS. Let them have the 9 Major limited guns. Bet they aren't as soft shooting as what you already use. Plus I forecast an increase in parts breakage and reliability issues. As I said, I have shot 9 major in my stock guns and it's more like shooting a 357 mag snubbie to me. I would stick with a 40/45. Or just practice more with the minor 9 and shoot all "A"s. Craig Edited September 22, 2009 by spd522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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