9mm major for Limited

[JThompson]

I also think we should allow 9 mm with a limit on how many rounds that may be loaded in any magazine. In keeping with this same line we should set a limit on how fast shooters can run courses of fire and a minimum time limit on classifiers. This will ensure parity in our sport for the shooters who can't afford to play in the "arms race" or those of us (such as myself) who are old, overweight and less talented.

:goof: I'm In!

[devgrupck]

Z,

The reason is all 38 and 9 open guns have been finnicky for me. I have actually seen just about every one malfunction. A .40 is my best chance of getting a gun that runs perfectly. So I lose 4 rounds out of the big stick.....big deal, that's why I practice reloading.

I couldn't agree with Divita more: practice-reloading, reload, reload, reload. "Isn't this practical shooting"

Take notes from Jake, his insight is very well versed.

[Jim Norman]

I also think we should allow 9 mm with a limit on how many rounds that may be loaded in any magazine. In keeping with this same line we should set a limit on how fast shooters can run courses of fire and a minimum time limit on classifiers. This will ensure parity in our sport for the shooters who can't afford to play in the "arms race" or those of us (such as myself) who are old, overweight and less talented.

:goof: I'm In!

JT,

It would appear that Merlin (AKA the Patron Saint of Humor) is saying that 9mm Major should be allowed so long as we also limt how fast people are allowed to run and how fast and accurately they are allowed to shoot. In other words, it APPEARS that he in NOT in favor of adding 9mm Major to Limited.

Which point of view makes perfect sense. 9mm Major would definately upset the apple cart.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

And, it's not just 9...it would be Super too.

So, now you are certainly talking strong cases (Super Comp and 9x23) with plenty of room to hold longer (heavier) bullets. Zero already makes a 150g Super bullet. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to get up to 165g (might already be out there?).

So, now we have a gun that will shoot with a similar feel as current guns, with a certain capacity advantage. We'd make the 40 caliber obsolete in Limited. Not smart. Why repeat past mistakes?

[tightloop]

And, it's not just 9...it would be Super too.

So, now you are certainly talking strong cases (Super Comp and 9x23) with plenty of room to hold longer (heavier) bullets. Zero already makes a 150g Super bullet. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to get up to 165g (might already be out there?).

So, now we have a gun that will shoot with a similar feel as current guns, with a certain capacity advantage. We'd make the 40 caliber obsolete in Limited. Not smart. Why repeat past mistakes?

If the essence of the sport is freestyle, then why hobble the shooters with silly rules like only 9mm Maj in open....if you can make it work, it should be good...there are silly rules in abundance, but they are for another rant...You cannot have it both ways, either it is really freestyle or it is only that part of freestyle that the BOD wants to be freestyle...hypocritical IMO....

Tloop

[Flexmoney]

If the divisions were freestyle, then we'd only have open. As it is, we have a handful of divisions that allow shooters to compete with others that sport similar equipment.

If you change the rules in Limited...then a huge amount of shooter have obsolete guns. Haven't we seen that before? Didn't that piss everybody off? Isn't that one reason why some of our people split off and started another game?

(please...let's not get deep into the IDPA stuff).

And, in the end, what would be the gain? We'd (maybe) make a small handful happy at the expense of ticking off a large amount of customers that are currently happy.

[Gregory_k]

Just what would be the cost savings per 1000 for 9maj vs 40 major?

[tightloop]

If the divisions were freestyle, then we'd only have open. As it is, we have a handful of divisions that allow shooters to compete with others that sport similar equipment.

If you change the rules in Limited...then a huge amount of shooter have obsolete guns. Haven't we seen that before? Didn't that piss everybody off? Isn't that one reason why some of our people split off and started another game?

(please...let's not get deep into the IDPA stuff).

And, in the end, what would be the gain? We'd (maybe) make a small handful happy at the expense of ticking off a large amount of customers that are currently happy.

Keep your blood pressure under control buddy...I am just asking WHY they gave in and made 9mm major in Open when they already had lots of other sub 40 calibers that would and did make it...and don't give me that cheap brass thing....IMO it was just a bone to toss to the Open shooters so they could have another round or two more than the Limited shooters...Heck they already had optical sights...and they wanted more..I just think it was illadvised from the start...but seems like this sport kind of like most of the government has a tough time admitting that they might have made a slight error in judgement and can't admit it might have been ok without that change...

[ipscbob]

If the divisions were freestyle, then we'd only have open. As it is, we have a handful of divisions that allow shooters to compete with others that sport similar equipment.

If you change the rules in Limited...then a huge amount of shooter have obsolete guns. Haven't we seen that before? Didn't that piss everybody off? Isn't that one reason why some of our people split off and started another game?

(please...let's not get deep into the IDPA stuff).

And, in the end, what would be the gain? We'd (maybe) make a small handful happy at the expense of ticking off a large amount of customers that are currently happy.

Keep your blood pressure under control buddy...I am just asking WHY they gave in and made 9mm major in Open when they already had lots of other sub 40 calibers that would and did make it...and don't give me that cheap brass thing....IMO it was just a bone to toss to the Open shooters so they could have another round or two more than the Limited shooters...Heck they already had optical sights...and they wanted more..I just think it was illadvised from the start...but seems like this sport kind of like most of the government has a tough time admitting that they might have made a slight error in judgement and can't admit it might have been ok without that change...

Oh Yeah.....Must be those EVIL optical sights and those extra couple of rounds that keep us shooting, huh? What a HUGE mistake USPSA made there!

[ima45dv8]

TL, sounds like you're suffering from a bit of "Open gun envy".

You know, you can get one pretty cheap if you watch the ads here on the forums.

I haven't tried one yet, but might one day (in .40, though).

[HSMITH]

9mm can actually be one round less in the magazine than SuperComp unless your mag man is really good

No capacity advantage at all with 9mm, if anything it is a handicap when compared to SuperComp.

[tightloop]

TL, sounds like you're suffering from a bit of "Open gun envy".

You know, you can get one pretty cheap if you watch the ads here on the forums.

I haven't tried one yet, but might one day (in .40, though).

No envy here....Just sitting here pondering some of the irrational rule Changes that have occurred within USPSA and asked about this one, which I have never understood...

Man, I question how this came about and I am accused of Open envy, trying to bash IDPA, wanting to force an equipment war, and goodness knows whatelse...Hell, probably my fault they never caught the guy on the grassy knoll, and also my fault that Area 51 is still closed to the public...

My whole interest is wondering how the rules got to this point anyway...

[Flexmoney]

...I am just asking WHY they gave in and made 9mm major in Open when they already had lots of other sub 40 calibers that would and did make it...

As I recall:

9 Major was always legal in Open. (Well in recent years, anyway...I don't know how far back you are talking about?)

If you take a look through the last rule book (red), there was no rule written against 9 Major in Open. There was a little know BOD stipulation that stated that major 9 in Open had to be loaded to a certain length (long enough that it only fit in 1911 based guns). Hardly anybody knew about that little stipulation. I don't see how it could have held up to an arbitration at a match.

and don't give me that cheap brass thing....

Well... For me, cost of brass is a valid concern. I feel others think the same way.

IMO it was just a bone to toss to the Open shooters so they could have another round or two more than the Limited shooters...

I'm not sure I follow that. Open guns are allowed 170mm mags. Limited guns are limited to 140mm mags. 9 Major doesnt hold any more rounds in an Open gun than 38 Super Comp, TJ, etc.

Heck they already had optical sights...and they wanted more..I just think it was illadvised from the start...

From the start? You must be going further back than I realized.

[ChuckS]

Hi there,

From the Nov 2002 BOD minutes:

16) 9mm Major for Open Division

Background: Members have asked BOD to re-evaluate a resolution from 1990 prohibiting the use of 9X19 ammunition loaded to less that 1.250 overall length for use with the 175pf major caliber and also 38 super loading criteria. A resolution drafted by corporate attorney was presented to Board, see Attachment 15E.

Area 4 Made motion.

Motion: Move to adopt the resolution presented.

Area 1 Seconded motion.

Area 8 Made motion to amend original motion.

Amended Motion: Minor change was made to language in the resolution.

Vote carried 8/1.

Are 6 Requests roll call.

1-Y, 2-Y, 3-Y, 4-Y, 5-Y, 6-N, 7-Y, 8-Y, Pres-Y

"

I am aware of this since this happened right after the build of my .40 open gun was completed .

Edited September 6, 2007 by ChuckS

[tightloop]

Just close the topic...certain of the fact that I am not going to get the information I sought through this thread...

I mean it is akin to a salmon swimming upstream to his breeding site and getting past the predators at sea, the bears on the river, only to look up and see Niagra Falls blocking the stream...

[sloanslade]

I for one would love a 9 or 38s to be major in limited. I currently shoot limited with a 38s. I see the decision not to allow maj 9 in limited to be one of money. A lot of extra equipment is sold due to the current rules. I hear how expensive it would be to change calibers in a limited gun, but this comes from people who have no problem buying another $2500 pistol and another $400-$600 woth of mags for it. If maj 9 or 38s was alowed in limited one only need one set of 100% mags for limited and open and not two sets. With out the current rules there is no need for to buy a new set of SVI mags for maj 9 or a new set of spacers for current STI mags and to also get the new 40 SPS mags.

Just another prospective.

[scirocco38s]

Internationally they have had major 9 in open as well as 38super, so have we except untill 3 years ago when they allowed major9 in factory oal. All the other divisions were based on the caliber minimum set by the ruling directors of both us and international. They havent changed the rules they have had for Standard division at all. We have had these discussionsat least 3 or 4 times previously and the bottom line is 9mm and 38 are allowed to make major in open only. Thems the rules. I also agree with Tightloop, close the thread and never let it surface again.

[bgary]

certain of the fact that I am not going to get the information I sought through this thread...

Heck, I'll take a swing at it.

In 1990, the then-USPSA Board decided that 9-major was "unsafe", and put bullet-weight and OAL restrictions on it. Effectively, that "banned" 9-major in Open.

In 2002, at the request of members, we re-opened that issue. The power factor had been reduced, new double-base powders made it possible to make major within reasonable pressures, etc, etc. So... we found a way to lift the prior restrictions.

All that did was make it so the 9x19 *cartridge* could be loaded to major in Open. Note that .355 bullets at major velocities were already allowed to make major in Open - all this did was remove a restriction on a particular cartridge (which, IMO, makes it *more* rational, not less... but that's just me).

Separate from that is a completely different question about "why don't we allow 9mm to make major in Limited?" That's an *equipment* rule - .40 is set as the minimum caliber in Limited/Lim-10 as an equipment specification. That, too, is (I believe) "rational"... and, as others have noted, changing the equipment rule so that 9mm can make major in Lim/Lim-10 would accomplish little, and harm much. It would instantly obsolete all those .40 guns and mags, and when all the dust was settled, we'd have new parity, just at a different place... plus a lot of pi$$sed-off members. Believe me when I say we are *very* reluctant to change rules in a way that makes currently-legal equipment obsolete.

So... 9mm is allowed to make major in Open because .355 was already the minimum caliber to make major in Open, and the anomaly of the 9x19 case was "cleaned up". The fact that it is allowed in one division's equipment rules, has no bearing on whether it should be allowed in a different division.

$.02

Bruce

[G-ManBart]

certain of the fact that I am not going to get the information I sought through this thread...

Heck, I'll take a swing at it.

In 1990, the then-USPSA Board decided that 9-major was "unsafe", and put bullet-weight and OAL restrictions on it. Effectively, that "banned" 9-major in Open.

In 2002, at the request of members, we re-opened that issue. The power factor had been reduced, new double-base powders made it possible to make major within reasonable pressures, etc, etc. So... we found a way to lift the prior restrictions.

All that did was make it so the 9x19 *cartridge* could be loaded to major in Open. Note that .355 bullets at major velocities were already allowed to make major in Open - all this did was remove a restriction on a particular cartridge (which, IMO, makes it *more* rational, not less... but that's just me).

Separate from that is a completely different question about "why don't we allow 9mm to make major in Limited?" That's an *equipment* rule - .40 is set as the minimum caliber in Limited/Lim-10 as an equipment specification. That, too, is (I believe) "rational"... and, as others have noted, changing the equipment rule so that 9mm can make major in Lim/Lim-10 would accomplish little, and harm much. It would instantly obsolete all those .40 guns and mags, and when all the dust was settled, we'd have new parity, just at a different place... plus a lot of pi$$sed-off members. Believe me when I say we are *very* reluctant to change rules in a way that makes currently-legal equipment obsolete.

So... 9mm is allowed to make major in Open because .355 was already the minimum caliber to make major in Open, and the anomaly of the 9x19 case was "cleaned up". The fact that it is allowed in one division's equipment rules, has no bearing on whether it should be allowed in a different division.

$.02

Bruce

Bruce,

If I remember correctly they also removed the special minimum bullet weight restrictions for .38 Super major regarding non-ramped barrels at the same time (after the power factor drop). Wasn't it like 143gr minimum if it was a lead bullet and 150gr if it was a jacketed bullet?

It always seemed to be safety related....Super had minimum bullet weight restrictions based upon pressure concerns for unspupported barrels, and 9x19 had to be a minimum coal (which spawned the 9x21 guns that got popular).

Edited October 2, 2007 by G-ManBart

[shred]

FWIW, IPSC just approved (on a "trial" basis) .357 Sig as allowed to qualify for Major PF in Standard

[tightloop]

FWIW, IPSC just approved (on a "trial" basis) .357 Sig as allowed to qualify for Major PF in Standard

Unless you have a summer house in Italy or on the Continent, what good does that do anyone in the US?

After I have had a few more glasses of wine, I may take another swing at rephrasing the inquiry..but not now..

[G-ManBart]

I am just asking WHY they gave in and made 9mm major in Open when they already had lots of other sub 40 calibers that would and did make it...and don't give me that cheap brass thing....IMO it was just a bone to toss to the Open shooters so they could have another round or two more than the Limited shooters...Heck they already had optical sights...and they wanted more..I just think it was illadvised from the start...but seems like this sport kind of like most of the government has a tough time admitting that they might have made a slight error in judgement and can't admit it might have been ok without that change...

There already was 9mm major in Open, they just tweaked the rule to allow it at SAAMI OAL. They allowed it at the SAAMI OAL when the power factor dropped and newer powders made it safe to do so. They also removed restrictions on .38 Super as well...they no longer made a distinction between ramped and unramped barrels when it came to bullet weight....sorta like removing an OAL restriction

9mm doesn't add any more magazine capacity than .38 Super (often less) and definitely less than Supercomp so your comment about 9mm having a couple more rounds than limited shooters makes no sense to me. In reality, if you want the most mag capacity you build a Supercomp, not a 9mm. Open and Limited aren't scored together, so what difference does it make if it's two extra rounds or ten? My Limited gun is a 22 round gun at most. My Open gun is a 30 round gun...that's a lot more than the two rounds extra you're claiming above.

"Heck they already had optical sights...and they wanted more"

HUH? They also had compensators, barrel porting, allowances for thumb rests, you name it. If you're not shooting Open (since you said "they") what difference does it make to you what they "get" as far as rules? They shoot their game, you shoot yours, everone's happy!

If they allowed 9mm Major in Limited then they'd have to allow .38 Super/Supercomp and 9x23 to make major in Limited as well. That WOULD start a new arms race. Right now almost everyone has 19 or 20 round mags in Limited. 23 is pretty easy to get in a 140mm mag in Supercomp. People who wanted to be competitive would have to get new guns built and after all of that, they'd still be in relatively the same position to the competition as before the mass exodus away from .40. The only problem is a lot of people would probably quit the sport because they've been through this once before!

I guess the really interesting question to you is this: Why SHOULD 9x19 be allowed to make major in Limited? What would it offer new to the sport to make things better and increase member numbers? Is there really some guy/gal out there thinking "gee, if USPSA/IPSC only allowed 9x19 major for Limited I might give it a try"???

Open has always been about pushing the envelope of performance with some very generous safety constraints. They allow things in Open that they don't allow in the other Divisions and that's the way it should be.

[shred]

FWIW, IPSC just approved (on a "trial" basis) .357 Sig as allowed to qualify for Major PF in Standard

Unless you have a summer house in Italy or on the Continent, what good does that do anyone in the US?

You may not have noticed, but we are allowed to and do run IPSC matches in the US. 3 of 'em so far, and my guess is, that'll be it until 2010 unless we get the World Shoot.

Though that was not my main point.. it was more a point of interest for those that think the division calbers are set and that's the way it is forever, and IPSC rules and USPSA rules do occasionally migrate one to the other..

[Nik Habicht]

I may be totally wrong here --- but my understanding is that the rules evolved like this:

There is one division: To make major, your ammo must make a power factor of 175. Most who achieve this are using a .45ACP

People figure out how to make 175 with .355 caliber guns.

People start blowing up non-1911 style guns trying to make 175 in 9x19.

The board sets down a requirement that in order for 9x19 to make major it must be loaded to 1.250 --- seems designed to insure that the hot 9 rounds are only fired from a 1911.

At some point a second division is set up --- and as part of setting the equipment rules, the board decides to require 10mm/.40 and above to make major.

The power factor drops to 165. Powder design advances --- same velocity, smaller pressure variations.

The board agrees to lift the length restriction on loading 9x19 to major. The board does not touch any of the other division's rules....

[Alan Meek]

I may be totally wrong here --- but my understanding is that the rules evolved like this:

There is one division: To make major, your ammo must make a power factor of 175. Most who achieve this are using a .45ACP

People figure out how to make 175 with .355 caliber guns.

People start blowing up non-1911 style guns trying to make 175 in 9x19.

The board sets down a requirement that in order for 9x19 to make major it must be loaded to 1.250 --- seems designed to insure that the hot 9 rounds are only fired from a 1911.

At some point a second division is set up --- and as part of setting the equipment rules, the board decides to require 10mm/.40 and above to make major.

The power factor drops to 165. Powder design advances --- same velocity, smaller pressure variations.

The board agrees to lift the length restriction on loading 9x19 to major. The board does not touch any of the other division's rules....

People start blowing up non-1911 style guns trying to make 175 in 9x19.

To my knowledge, no one blew up any guns any more than the 1911 platform. P9s did break OEM slide stop pins.

The board sets down a requirement that in order for 9x19 to make major it must be loaded to 1.250 --- seems designed to insure that the hot 9 rounds are only fired from a 1911.

IMO this was a complete knee jerk reaction to a problem that did not exist and was fueled by a lack of knowledge. The solution brought forth by the shooters and John Ricco of CP Bullets was the availability of CP 9x21 brass.

At some point a second division is set up --- and as part of setting the equipment rules, the board decides to require 10mm/.40 and above to make major.

There was an intial requirement that in order for a cartridge to be included in the major scoring of limited that the cartridge had to be available from 3 differnet vendors and that cartridge had to make major.

With all of that I could be wrong in my recollection