9mm major for Limited

[Patrick Sweeney]

Didn't blow up guns? Ask Bruce Gray about the pieces of his HK P7 that are still in low-earth orbit.

As for allowing 9mm Major in anything but Open, until someone articulates how it will improve the sport or bring in more shooters, I see no reason to entertain the notion.

[Alan Meek]

Didn't blow up guns? Ask Bruce Gray about the pieces of his HK P7 that are still in low-earth orbit.

Those should have rentered and splashed down somewhere by now

While I am sure there were some guns that did come to any early demise, we still have that happening today, but I did not think there was a plethora (sp) of guns that were exploding on a frequent basis.

[tightloop]

I am just asking WHY they gave in and made 9mm major in Open when they already had lots of other sub 40 calibers that would and did make it...and don't give me that cheap brass thing....IMO it was just a bone to toss to the Open shooters so they could have another round or two more than the Limited shooters...Heck they already had optical sights...and they wanted more..I just think it was illadvised from the start...but seems like this sport kind of like most of the government has a tough time admitting that they might have made a slight error in judgement and can't admit it might have been ok without that change...

There already was 9mm major in Open, they just tweaked the rule to allow it at SAAMI OAL. They allowed it at the SAAMI OAL when the power factor dropped and newer powders made it safe to do so. They also removed restrictions on .38 Super as well...they no longer made a distinction between ramped and unramped barrels when it came to bullet weight....sorta like removing an OAL restriction

9mm doesn't add any more magazine capacity than .38 Super (often less) and definitely less than Supercomp so your comment about 9mm having a couple more rounds than limited shooters makes no sense to me. In reality, if you want the most mag capacity you build a Supercomp, not a 9mm. Open and Limited aren't scored together, so what difference does it make if it's two extra rounds or ten? My Limited gun is a 22 round gun at most. My Open gun is a 30 round gun...that's a lot more than the two rounds extra you're claiming above.

"Heck they already had optical sights...and they wanted more"

HUH? They also had compensators, barrel porting, allowances for thumb rests, you name it. If you're not shooting Open (since you said "they") what difference does it make to you what they "get" as far as rules? They shoot their game, you shoot yours, everone's happy!

If they allowed 9mm Major in Limited then they'd have to allow .38 Super/Supercomp and 9x23 to make major in Limited as well. That WOULD start a new arms race. Right now almost everyone has 19 or 20 round mags in Limited. 23 is pretty easy to get in a 140mm mag in Supercomp. People who wanted to be competitive would have to get new guns built and after all of that, they'd still be in relatively the same position to the competition as before the mass exodus away from .40. The only problem is a lot of people would probably quit the sport because they've been through this once before!

I guess the really interesting question to you is this: Why SHOULD 9x19 be allowed to make major in Limited? What would it offer new to the sport to make things better and increase member numbers? Is there really some guy/gal out there thinking "gee, if USPSA/IPSC only allowed 9x19 major for Limited I might give it a try"???

Open has always been about pushing the envelope of performance with some very generous safety constraints. They allow things in Open that they don't allow in the other Divisions and that's the way it should be.

Bart:

When you shoot, does your match score reflect how you did against the person who won the stage did? Yes...and often, that person is an Open shooter, so your reference to "...they shoot their game, you shoot yours..." leaks a little water...you are shooting the same game so why can't you shoot the same caliber and both be major PF? I would ask the same question about mag capacities theirs being 30+/- and Limited at 23+/-...but it would be redundant.

The big whine about making the 40's obsolete falls on deaf ears with me...the same people who want to really win and want to stay competitive would make the change regardless .

You ask why should 9 Major be allowed anywhere besides Open...because prior to IPSC in the US becoming USPSA, the purpose of a match was to determine who was the best shooter on any given day with the gear that they could drag to the line..those were the only rules. Also why should Open shooters be the only ones allowed to benefit from an abundance of cheap brass, less recoil and more mag capacity? The cost of a new Open gun vs a new Limited gun from the same maker is minimal in the overall picture of things

And finally, it is all about the $$$...USPSA has backed themselves into a corner, both financially and operationally...they cannot have a consolidated Nationals anymore because of the whining from the shooters that they want their own Natls..hence my remark about comparing scores...Production shooters want to see one of their shooters win some stages and be HOA, the same with Limited, L10 and SS and Revo....so USPSA has/had no option but to offer Natl championships for each division to appease the shooters...putting on 3 or more Natls annually hasn't helped them financially...so it is a never ending loop...we have to have more shooters so we can pay for everybody to have a National Championship in their division, so we can have more shooters, so we can pay for....see where I am going here?

Most of all the changes that allows Open to be really different from the other divisions are allowed because Open is the only place USPSA can make changes on an equipment basis and feel certain that all the shooters won't stop shooting because if it and they can then say...Look what we did...ain't it great...and by the way, the rest of you Red Headed Step Children muddle along with what you have cause we haven't figured out a way to allow you to be competitive again without everyone moaning and bitching about something..

Just my opinion...

Tightloop

[GentlemanJim]

Cmon guys......It would only hurt people to change the rules for limited to include .355 as major.

If you want to shoot .355 as major.....shoot open.

In my opinion..limited is not broken...its a very level playing field..please dont try to fix it.

All in all I think our existing rules are about as good as you can ask for.

And yes ...I shoot open..with major9.

Jim

[Nik Habicht]

I may be totally wrong here --- but my understanding is that the rules evolved like this:

There is one division: To make major, your ammo must make a power factor of 175. Most who achieve this are using a .45ACP

People figure out how to make 175 with .355 caliber guns.

People start blowing up non-1911 style guns trying to make 175 in 9x19.

The board sets down a requirement that in order for 9x19 to make major it must be loaded to 1.250 --- seems designed to insure that the hot 9 rounds are only fired from a 1911.

At some point a second division is set up --- and as part of setting the equipment rules, the board decides to require 10mm/.40 and above to make major.

The power factor drops to 165. Powder design advances --- same velocity, smaller pressure variations.

The board agrees to lift the length restriction on loading 9x19 to major. The board does not touch any of the other division's rules....

People start blowing up non-1911 style guns trying to make 175 in 9x19.

To my knowledge, no one blew up any guns any more than the 1911 platform. P9s did break OEM slide stop pins.

The board sets down a requirement that in order for 9x19 to make major it must be loaded to 1.250 --- seems designed to insure that the hot 9 rounds are only fired from a 1911.

IMO this was a complete knee jerk reaction to a problem that did not exist and was fueled by a lack of knowledge. The solution brought forth by the shooters and John Ricco of CP Bullets was the availability of CP 9x21 brass.

At some point a second division is set up --- and as part of setting the equipment rules, the board decides to require 10mm/.40 and above to make major.

There was an intial requirement that in order for a cartridge to be included in the major scoring of limited that the cartridge had to be available from 3 differnet vendors and that cartridge had to make major.

With all of that I could be wrong in my recollection

Alan,

all of that occurred before I started shooting USPSA ---- and I think I agree with your reaction to the 1990 decision.....

I actually heard a large chunk of the story from John Ricco a few years ago, when I was still shooting indoor IDPA matches at his range....

[Flexmoney]

When you shoot, does your match score reflect how you did against the person who won the stage did? Yes...and often, that person is an Open shooter, so your reference to "...they shoot their game, you shoot yours..." leaks a little water...

Ahhh...there is one point of disconnect.

Your MATCH score only reflects how you did against those in your exact same division.

[Nik Habicht]

When you shoot, does your match score reflect how you did against the person who won the stage did? Yes...and often, that person is an Open shooter, so your reference to "...they shoot their game, you shoot yours..." leaks a little water...you are shooting the same game so why can't you shoot the same caliber and both be major PF? I would ask the same question about mag capacities theirs being 30+/- and Limited at 23+/-...but it would be redundant.

Hmm, no --- if you're shooting production, you're not competing against Open shooters. Combined scores aren't official --- and have no meaning, other than what we choose to assign them..... :D

The big whine about making the 40's obsolete falls on deaf ears with me...the same people who want to really win and want to stay competitive would make the change regardless .

Nope --- in my neck of the woods some of the would leave the game. Component pricing's already starting to have an affect there as well. Change should be predicated by what it would bring to the sport, not necessarily by making all divisions identical.

You ask why should 9 Major be allowed anywhere besides Open...because prior to IPSC in the US becoming USPSA, the purpose of a match was to determine who was the best shooter on any given day with the gear that they could drag to the line..those were the only rules.

And in Open those are still the rules of the day --- so what's the problem exactly?

And finally, it is all about the $$$...USPSA has backed themselves into a corner, both financially and operationally...they cannot have a consolidated Nationals anymore because of the whining from the shooters that they want their own Natls..hence my remark about comparing scores...Production shooters want to see one of their shooters win some stages and be HOA, the same with Limited, L10 and SS and Revo....so USPSA has/had no option but to offer Natl championships for each division to appease the shooters...putting on 3 or more Natls annually hasn't helped them financially...so it is a never ending loop...we have to have more shooters so we can pay for everybody to have a National Championship in their division, so we can have more shooters, so we can pay for....see where I am going here?

Kinda, Sorta --- but I didn't hear any complaining back in 2004 when we had one large run-what-ya-brung and declare one (1, a single) division National Championship.

Most of all the changes that allows Open to be really different from the other divisions are allowed because Open is the only place USPSA can make changes on an equipment basis and feel certain that all the shooters won't stop shooting because if it and they can then say...Look what we did...ain't it great...and by the way, the rest of you Red Headed Step Children muddle along with what you have cause we haven't figured out a way to allow you to be competitive again without everyone moaning and bitching about something..

Limited's pretty close --- not many prohibitions other than no comps, ports, or optics. Of course you do need to start your caliber with a 4 to make major....

Just my opinion...

Tightloop

And mine..... :D Others are entitled to theirs.....

[bgary]

Just my opinion...

Fair enough. Allow me to provide some facts.

does your match score reflect how you did against the person who won the stage did? Yes...and often, that person is an Open shooter, so your reference to "...they shoot their game, you shoot yours..." leaks a little water...

To begin with, that whole premise is flawed. The divisions are *separate matches*. If you're a limited shooter, and you're seeing an Open shooter at the top of your results page, then either your stats guy has screwed up, or those aren't official results. The rules *require* that the divisions be scored separately. So, the only one who should ever be at the top of the page on the Limited results, is a Limited shooter.

More than that, though... look at any other sport where "machines" are in play (car racing, boat racing, archery, whatever). In all of them, there are "division equipment rules", that separate the competitions. Take NASCAR - they have the Nextel Cup cars, the Busch series cars, and the Craftsman series trucks. Saying that you want to run an Open-legal big-stick in Limited is very much like saying you want to run a Nextel Cup car in the truck series. They are different competitions, with different equipment rules.

The big whine about making the 40's obsolete falls on deaf ears with me...the same people who want to really win and want to stay competitive would make the change regardless .

Undoubtedly. but the other 9,950 shooters who spent their hard-earned money on a Limited gun would be really pissed, and rightly so, IMHO.

prior to IPSC in the US becoming USPSA, the purpose of a match was to determine who was the best shooter on any given day with the gear that they could drag to the line..those were the only rules.

Yeah, sorta, but not really. In the early days, sure, everyone brought out their 1911 and pretty much everyone was shooting even-up. So, yes, you could say the purpose of the match was to determine the best shooter. But, since boys like toys, people started messing with their gear, trying to gain an advantage. beavertails and bigger controls, then 8-round mags, then heavy barrels and guide-rods, then smaller calibers, then weighted barrel-extensions, then comps, then weld-up mags, then dots, then hi-cap frames, then... and what the game became was about everything *but* shooting. It became "which gadgets to I have to put on my gun to not be un-competitive *this* week?" It was an arms race, and if you were involved then, you know how annoying it was to learn that your gun was obsolete, because someone else had just come up with a way to get more rounds or less recoil or whatever than you have.

So... it very much got OFF-track from being "about the shooting", and started being all about the "arms race". The divisions were put into place to FIX that - in Open division, you can do pretty much whatever you want... in "Limited" division, there is a more "limited" set of modifications you can make. And... I think the proof is in the pudding, the competitions WITHIN those divisions have gotten back to being "all about the shooting", and the equipment rules have been very stable. What you're suggesting is a return to the "arms race" for the Limited division... and I have to say, I can't see how that would be good for the sport.

Put a different way... each division is focused on identifying the best shooter with *that* division's equipment. You can choose whatever division you want to compete in. But once you do, you are constrained to use the equipment that is legal on that division, and because everyone else has the *same* equipment constraints... voila! it is about the shooting!

Also why should Open shooters be the only ones allowed to benefit from an abundance of cheap brass, less recoil and more mag capacity?

Same reason a Nextel Cup driver is the only one to "benefit" from the Car Of Tomorrow stuff. It is a different competition, and putting a COT into a Craftsman Truck series race would make it about the equipment *difference*, rather than about the driver. In point of fact, you *can* have cheap brass, less recoil and more mag capacity in Limited... run a 9mm gun. The *rules* say it won't score major, but... if you want cheap brass, less recoil and more mag capacity, you have that choice now.

And finally, it is all about the $$$...USPSA has backed themselves into a corner, both financially and operationally...

With all due respect? bull$hit. Everytime someone comes up with something they don't like about USPSA, they start spinning a conspiracy theory, and suggesting that if someone would only "follow the money", they'd learn why USPSA is so freakin' evil. That's a pile of crap. USPSA works really hard to provide the rules, the matches and the policies that THE SHOOTERS WANT. We exist to provide shooting competitions FOR THE SHOOTERS. If *you* don't like the Nationals format, that's one thing. But please, don't sit there any say "USPSA has backed itself into a corner"... 'cuz, all we're doing is providing what you ("all of you") are telling us you want.

so USPSA has/had no option but to offer Natl championships for each division to appease the shooters...

That's a bogus argument. See above - the divisions are separate competitions. It doesn't matter whether all 5 (or 6) Nationals are on the same range on the same day, or at 5 (or 6) different locations on separate dates - they are all SEPARATE MATCHES.

Open is the only place USPSA can make changes on an equipment basis and feel certain that all the shooters won't stop shooting because if it and they can then say...Look what we did...ain't it great...and by the way,

I can't think of the last time we made a change to the Open division. Other than removing an anomalous restriction on allowing a .355 bullet to make major out of a 9x19 case (when that same bullet through the same barrel at the same velocity from a 9x21 or Super case was already allowed)... it has been *years* since we changed the Open division equipment rules.

the rest of you Red Headed Step Children muddle along with what you have

There's nothing "step child" about the Limited division. It is one of the largest, one of the most closely contested, and one of the most stable/growing divisions we have. Why in the *world* would we want to mess with it?

If you want to have the equipment that are only allowed in Open... shoot Open. Putting that equipment into Limited would change the game. It wouldn't be "limited" any more... would it?

Bruce

Edited October 2, 2007 by bgary

[Flexmoney]

The big whine about making the 40's obsolete falls on deaf ears with me...the same people who want to really win and want to stay competitive would make the change regardless .

I don't think the whine is coming out of the 40 shooters.

You ask why should 9 Major be allowed anywhere besides Open...because prior to IPSC in the US becoming USPSA, the purpose of a match was to determine who was the best shooter on any given day with the gear that they could drag to the line..those were the only rules.

That is the old "run what ya brung" position. It makes everybody an Open shooter. If you want to shoot against Open guns...why not just sign up for Open?

Also why should Open shooters be the only ones allowed to benefit from an abundance of cheap brass, less recoil and more mag capacity?

- cheap brass....nope. 40 brass prices are on par with 9mm brass prices.

- less recoil...nope. 9 major softer than 40 major ???

- more mag capacity...sorta. Sure, you get a few more rounds of 9 in a 140mm stick, but where does that take you...if your competition has the same capacity? It would just be a slight shift.

The cost of a new Open gun vs a new Limited gun from the same maker is minimal in the overall picture of things

Lets say that were true...we still have thousands of current/loyal members that have to buy all new gear. Not to mention getting loads developed and getting the gear up to speed. Where is the gain in that?

Production shooters want to see one of their shooters win some stages and be HOA, the same with Limited, L10 and SS and Revo...

Huh?? Where did you get that idea? I've never heard that...and I get a round a bit. What seperate division nationals do give is the chance for the best shooters to go head to head in a division. Increased competition.

Besides...major matches seldom show the combined scores anyway (they certainly don't show on the USPSA website).

[Singlestack]

I read this thread right after TL made his last post. I walked away scratching my head. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that does not understand it.

[ipscbob]

Wonder if it's a full moon tonight???

[SLM]

I just want IBTL and to say one thing. I'm getting sick and tired of reading how 9mm is so much cheaper. For new brass the price is almost the same. "Once" fired used to be cheaper. Taken a look lately? Brassmanbrass.com is listing BOTH 9mm and .40 S&W for $35.00 per thousand for mixed. I found 38 super/supercomp mixed for less than $40.00 per thousand. I don't know what it's like at your local ranges but about the only brass on the floor at mine is .40 S&W. It seems to be all the rage right now and there are very few people at my range shooting 9mm any more. Before my range owner got in with a commercial reloader and I could dig through the brass buckets I could have brought home .40 by the bucket full. I got lucky to get two or three hundred 9mm. I keep reading about people getting 9mm for free or a few bucks a thousand but no one is ever willing to post those supposed sources. I don't believe for one second that there is any cost savings in brass to be had between 9mm and .40 S&W. Heck, at the match I shot this past Sunday it seemed that every piece of brass that I picked up was either .40 or .45. I could have come home with 300 or 400 .40 brass but I gave them to a guy there that loaded it. I was happy with the 98 pieces of 9mm I finally found.

My point is... Please cut the crap about "cheap" brass. It doesn't exist in today's market.

[al503]

My point is... Please cut the crap about "cheap" brass. It doesn't exist in today's market.

Agree. There really is no real difference between the brass.

However, there is a sizeable difference in the price of the bullets (~$20-$40/K). That can add up very quickly.

For those looking to make the jump into limited, they can plan on doing so knowing that they won't have to shell out the additional $ for .40 bullets to play on the same field.

Put a cap on mag capacity so there's no issue in this regard. Set it at 20 or 21 rounds so that those (myself included) who have shelled out big $ for guts, basepads, and tuning on our .40 mags (to get that last round) haven't wasted our $. At the same time, the newcomers or those who want to get another top end built can spend half of what they would have for stock mags that will still give them the max allowed.

I'm fine with shooting my 9mm limited gun and being scored minor in local matches. If someone finishes higher than I do because of the scoring, big whoop. However, if I can get 165+PF with a 9mm bullet, save $ on ammo and equipment, have no capacity advantage, and deal with the harsher recoil, why not?

[G-ManBart]

Bart:

When you shoot, does your match score reflect how you did against the person who won the stage did? Yes...and often, that person is an Open shooter, so your reference to "...they shoot their game, you shoot yours..." leaks a little water...you are shooting the same game so why can't you shoot the same caliber and both be major PF? I would ask the same question about mag capacities theirs being 30+/- and Limited at 23+/-...but it would be redundant.

The big whine about making the 40's obsolete falls on deaf ears with me...the same people who want to really win and want to stay competitive would make the change regardless .

You ask why should 9 Major be allowed anywhere besides Open...because prior to IPSC in the US becoming USPSA, the purpose of a match was to determine who was the best shooter on any given day with the gear that they could drag to the line..those were the only rules. Also why should Open shooters be the only ones allowed to benefit from an abundance of cheap brass, less recoil and more mag capacity? The cost of a new Open gun vs a new Limited gun from the same maker is minimal in the overall picture of things

And finally, it is all about the $$$...USPSA has backed themselves into a corner, both financially and operationally...they cannot have a consolidated Nationals anymore because of the whining from the shooters that they want their own Natls..hence my remark about comparing scores...Production shooters want to see one of their shooters win some stages and be HOA, the same with Limited, L10 and SS and Revo....so USPSA has/had no option but to offer Natl championships for each division to appease the shooters...putting on 3 or more Natls annually hasn't helped them financially...so it is a never ending loop...we have to have more shooters so we can pay for everybody to have a National Championship in their division, so we can have more shooters, so we can pay for....see where I am going here?

Most of all the changes that allows Open to be really different from the other divisions are allowed because Open is the only place USPSA can make changes on an equipment basis and feel certain that all the shooters won't stop shooting because if it and they can then say...Look what we did...ain't it great...and by the way, the rest of you Red Headed Step Children muddle along with what you have cause we haven't figured out a way to allow you to be competitive again without everyone moaning and bitching about something..

Just my opinion...

Tightloop

TL,

My club does post overall combined results, but it's really nothing more than interesting as it doesn't mean anything. One example that illustrates that it doesn't mean anything is that there have been times when I finished say 2nd in Limited and the guy who placed 3rd in Limited was a spot higher on the overall sheet...doesn't happen often, but as a quirk of math it can happen. Regardless, as others have pointed out, each Division is it's own match. I've been HOA at two clubs this year so I guess not having the option of a 9mm Major Limited gun didn't really hold me back.

It's clear that the argument about making .40 obsolete is falling on deaf ears, which is unfortunate. Certainly, most of the people who are really competitive would just buy a new gun and keep after it, but a lot of people wouldn't want to do that or can't afford to do that so you would force them out of Limited. We have a very promising young shooter in our club who's going to be awesome if he keeps after it....he's 17 and probably could afford the switch. You'd effectively make it so he'd have to shoot Limited-10 just so some people who aren't even in the sport could someday buy a 9mm Limited gun and run it Major.

There's a reality here that I think you may have overlooked. Virtually everyone that shoots Limited has some sort of high cap .40 set up specifically for it. You don't run into people at the range with a tricked out Glock 35 or S_I who aren't competitive shooters....just doesn't happen. That means that everyone who wants to shoot Limited is going to have to buy a gun. If you have to buy a gun to be competitive, the caliber doesn't change the entry price. The cost of brass is no different, or marginally so between 9 and .40. The only benefit to 9 is that the bullets are cheaper. So, thousands of current Limited shooters should have to go out and rebuild or buy new guns just so that people who probably aren't already Limited shooters can build guns that would let them shoot cheaper bullets????

"You ask why should 9 Major be allowed anywhere besides Open...because prior to IPSC in the US becoming USPSA, the purpose of a match was to determine who was the best shooter on any given day with the gear that they could drag to the line..those were the only rules."

Yep, and today it's still to determine who the best shooter on any given day is. Just look at the #1 shooter listed for a division and that's the answer. Guns and the world have come a long way in the last 40 years. People can chose to adapt if they want, but if they don't, USPSA has been thoughtful enough that they have two wonderful Divisions for people who prefer old school....Single Stack and Revolver.

"The cost of a new Open gun vs a new Limited gun from the same maker is minimal in the overall picture of things."

I think the answer to that is pretty obvious. If you want to shoot Major 9 and the gun cost differences are minimal, buy an Open gun and quit complaining

"And finally, it is all about the $$$...USPSA has backed themselves into a corner, both financially and operationally...they cannot have a consolidated Nationals anymore because of the whining from the shooters that they want their own Natls..hence my remark about comparing scores...Production shooters want to see one of their shooters win some stages and be HOA, the same with Limited, L10 and SS and Revo."

Okay, so you think it would be good if only maybe 300 people TOTAL got to shoot in the Nationals? That's what would happen. The sport has gotten too big for that. Slots for the current nationals are already hard to get and your idea would make it way worse.

"Most of all the changes that allows Open to be really different from the other divisions are allowed because Open is the only place USPSA can make changes on an equipment basis and feel certain that all the shooters won't stop shooting because if it and they can then say...Look what we did...ain't it great...and by the way, the rest of you Red Headed Step Children muddle along with what you have cause we haven't figured out a way to allow you to be competitive again without everyone moaning and bitching about something.."

Open has had almost no changes in years...not sure where you're getting that idea from. The other divisions are extremely competitive as they are. We don't have many people shooting Production at our club but Limited is a dogfight every match and Open will be that way soon. Funny thing, I've never once heard anyone shooting Limited complain or bitch about equipment rules. That tells me it's set up pretty well.

There really is almost no upside to allowing 9 Major in Limited. Why is it that so many people are posting here saying how it's a bad idea and there's only one voice really in opposition? You're hearing from the hardcore members...people here...who have a definite interest in the future of the sport and the Divisions.

If we were to allow 9 Major in Limited you'd cost a whole bunch of people a lot of money, force some people from the Division, if not the sport, and after it all settled out, the same people would finish in the same place as they do now....oh great, but they might get slightly cheaper brass and cheaper bullets. I just can't see how that helps the sport any

[Mark K]

Why should it matter (other than it is the rule) what caliber you shoot in Limited Division to make Major? There are so many people now shooting 9 Major in Open because of the cost and availablity of brass, would it not make sense to allow 9 Major for Limited? I know the recoil issue and all, but shouldn't that be up to the shooter?

Mark

[kevin c]

The complete rationale I can't give you, though somebody else here may know. I can tell you that major nine didn't exist when the decision was first made to create the original two major divisions (Limited and Open), because the smaller cased 9x19 cartridge couldn't make the old major PF floor of 175.

[eerw]

prior thread about the same thing.

.355 major

[sfinney]

Major 9 used to be deemed "unsafe" especially at 175 PF or higher.

More importantly, 38 Super and other sub .40 rounds that could make major "safely" were restricted from Limited to give .40s and .45s some where to shoot.... if 9mm/38 Super was legal for Limited, the thought process was everyone would drop .40 and .45 due to being at a mag capacity disadvantage (22/23 or so in 38 Super, 19/20 in .40). It was to avoid an "equipment war".

If you look at how few .45s shoot in Limited, due to the extra couple rounds you get from a .40, that logic seems to be accurate.

[Nik Habicht]

Bottom line --- virtually every current competitor shooting Limited Major would need to replace/majorly rebuild one or more guns, as well as potentially replacing/rebuilding a press. Add in replacement of components, and you'll get to the point that it would be a very large financial impact on shooters.....

Last but not least --- uncomped 9mm major would suck to shoot compared to the .40 at the same power factor.....

[JThompson]

Bottom line --- virtually every current competitor shooting Limited Major would need to replace/majorly rebuild one or more guns, as well as potentially replacing/rebuilding a press. Add in replacement of components, and you'll get to the point that it would be a very large financial impact on shooters.....

Last but not least --- uncomped 9mm major would suck to shoot compared to the .40 at the same power factor.....

As long as the number of rounds is limited in the mag for 9mm there is no reason not to allow them now. I know bullet/brass cost is the only reason I don't shoot some limited. I have a Rich Limited MAtch with all the bells and can't afford to shoot it as well as open 9. I could do it if we could shoot 9mm major

[Alan Meek]

One other bit of trivia, at the time Limited Division was created, there was a requirement that Ammo that made the then current Major PF had to be available from a minimum of three commercial sources.

Alan

[Chuck Anderson]

I really doubt the BOD would approve another caliber but limit the number of rounds in the magazine. Kind of goes against the principles of the division.

[Jman]

Last but not least --- uncomped 9mm major would suck to shoot compared to the .40 at the same power factor.....

No question. Two completely different animals.

Jim

[JThompson]

One other bit of trivia, at the time Limited Division was created, there was a requirement that Ammo that made the then current Major PF had to be available from a minimum of three commercial sources.

Alan

Hadn't heard that before Alan.... nice bit of trivia.

[zhunter]

In light of our current economic situation, gas prices, ammo prices, general cost of living skyrocketing, I think it is time to possibly seriously look at a way to allow a 9mm meeting the 165 PF into Limited Division. It WOULD require a limit on the rounds in a magazine, say 20, as it is pretty easy these days to get 20 .40's in a magazine.

I for one have been hit hard, and I suspect I am not the only one.

WE, meaning USPSA need to be PROACTIVE for a change and look at the the future and how economics are going to affect us.

Just my thoughts.