9mm major for Limited

[zhunter]

In light of our current economic situation, gas prices, ammo prices, general cost of living skyrocketing, I think it is time to possibly seriously look at a way to allow a 9mm meeting the 165 PF into Limited Division. It WOULD require a limit on the rounds in a magazine, say 20, as it is pretty easy these days to get 20 .40's in a magazine.

I for one have been hit hard, and I suspect I am not the only one.

WE, meaning USPSA need to be PROACTIVE for a change and look at the the future and how economics are going to affect us.

Just my thoughts.

[Shay1911]

Just checked the doubletap ammo website, in 9mm, only their 147's barely make PF at 166.8 PF. Their 115's and 124's do not.

Does anyone make factory major PF 9mm?

[Chuck Anderson]

Atlanta Arms and Ammo. .355 Super It's a 9mmx19mm major load.

I'm sorry but economic crisis or not I really have a hard time believing that rechambering your gun for 9 Major, and not reusing your brass is going to be more economical than leaving it as is and shooting .40 brass a whole bunch. You're going to have to do a whole lot of shooting before you recoup the investment from the changeover. If you really want to shoot 9mm, shoot Production or shoot Limited Minor.

[AikiDale]

Have to disagree Z. Major should be major. There is a place for 9mm in Production. There is a place for 9mm in Open. It is a level playing field. Just me I guess, but if I were in charge there would be a minimum of .40 caliber for major in all divisions. Part of what makes major major, in my opinion, is the size of the hole not just how much kinetic energy or momentum may be measured.

[zhunter]

Atlanta Arms and Ammo. .355 Super It's a 9mmx19mm major load.

I'm sorry but economic crisis or not I really have a hard time believing that rechambering your gun for 9 Major, and not reusing your brass is going to be more economical than leaving it as is and shooting .40 brass a whole bunch. You're going to have to do a whole lot of shooting before you recoup the investment from the changeover. If you really want to shoot 9mm, shoot Production or shoot Limited Minor.

Law, you are right, a change over would be expensive and take a long to to recoup, but what about OUR, meaning USPSA's future? New people getting into the sport would be much better off with the option of a 9 major for Limited. Don't be short sighted and only look at the present, the current economic trend is not going to change anytime soon.

Like I said in this post, and stated in a new post, and a post on the USPSA Forum, WE need to take a serious look at our future, and 9 Major in Limited is a possibility to sustain or grow in these times.

[Vlad]

WE, meaning USPSA need to be PROACTIVE for a change and look at the the future and how economics are going to affect us.

I hear we have some divisions where 9mm is very popular, but maybe it is a crazy rumor.

[zhunter]

Have to disagree Z. Major should be major. There is a place for 9mm in Production. There is a place for 9mm in Open. It is a level playing field. Just me I guess, but if I were in charge there would be a minimum of .40 caliber for major in all divisions. Part of what makes major major, in my opinion, is the size of the hole not just how much kinetic energy or momentum may be measured.

Dale

In the not too distant past, i would have TOTALLY agreed with you. I am just trying to show some nsight into where we are headed financially in the near future.

Below is copied from another topic along similar lines that prompted me to start this thread:

I'm sorry but economic crisis or not I really have a hard time believing that rechambering your gun for 9 Major, and not reusing your brass is going to be more economical than leaving it as is and shooting .40 brass a whole bunch. You're going to have to do a whole lot of shooting before you recoup the investment from the changeover. If you really want to shoot 9mm, shoot Production or shoot Limited Minor.

Law, you are right, a change over would be expensive and take a long to to recoup, but what about OUR, meaning USPSA's future? New people getting into the sport would be much better off with the option of a 9 major for Limited. Don't be short sighted and only look at the present, the current economic trend is not going to change anytime soon.

Like I said in this post, and stated in a new post, and a post on the USPSA Forum, WE need to take a serious look at our future, and 9 Major in Limited is a possibility to sustain or grow in these times.

[G-ManBart]

In light of our current economic situation, gas prices, ammo prices, general cost of living skyrocketing, I think it is time to possibly seriously look at a way to allow a 9mm meeting the 165 PF into Limited Division. It WOULD require a limit on the rounds in a magazine, say 20, as it is pretty easy these days to get 20 .40's in a magazine.

I for one have been hit hard, and I suspect I am not the only one.

WE, meaning USPSA need to be PROACTIVE for a change and look at the the future and how economics are going to affect us.

Just my thoughts.

That's a slippery slope to start down. Why? Next thing would be allowing 9mm major in Single Stack. There are plenty of folks shooting .45 in SS that won't switch to .40 because it's not manly or traditional enough for them...or something similar....even though it would save them money as .45 bullets are quite a bit more expensive that .40s.

Some of those folks might try the "reliability factor" argument, but that doesn't hold water if the gun is set up right and fed good ammo.

[sfinney]

WE, meaning USPSA need to be PROACTIVE for a change and look at the the future and how economics are going to affect us.

I hear we have some divisions where 9mm is very popular, but maybe it is a crazy rumor.

+1

Last I checked 9mm was legal for every USPSA Division. But if ya just gotta shoot a 9mm in Limited, go ahead. Its legal. You can even load to 165PF if you want. But only get credit for Minor.

[zhunter]

WE, meaning USPSA need to be PROACTIVE for a change and look at the the future and how economics are going to affect us.

I hear we have some divisions where 9mm is very popular, but maybe it is a crazy rumor.

+1

Last I checked 9mm was legal for every USPSA Division. But if ya just gotta shoot a 9mm in Limited, go ahead. Its legal. You can even load to 165PF if you want. But only get credit for Minor.

Hence it is NON-COMPETITIVE!!!

[al503]

In light of our current economic situation, gas prices, ammo prices, general cost of living skyrocketing, I think it is time to possibly seriously look at a way to allow a 9mm meeting the 165 PF into Limited Division. It WOULD require a limit on the rounds in a magazine, say 20, as it is pretty easy these days to get 20 .40's in a magazine.

I agree with Z.

I had a nice 9mm limited gun built because it costs me about $35/K more to shoot .40 in limited.

If I shot more than I do now, this can add up very quickly. I'm sure there are many shooting 20, 30, and maybe 40+K rounds a year.

The 'Have to buy new guns/equipment' argument is valid if you don't set a limit on mag capacity. However, if you do, then the $ argument against 9mm actually does a 180.

IE: a shooter (new or not) is thinking about going into limited. You can buy a stock 9/38 140mm mag for $60-$70. The tuned mags .40 mags giving having ~20 round capacity with the springs, followers, and basepads start at roughly twice that much and can go for over $200 each.

Recoil: the 9mm is definitely going to recoil more than a .40. However, if that's worth saving the extra $ for the shooter, why should anyone care about another shooter having to deal with more recoil? Besides, there are many top shooters shooting 165 grain .40 bullets. With 147 gr 9mm readily available, there probably isn't that much difference in recoil since other factors such as bbl weight, etc., will compensate.

I'm happy shooting my limited 9 in minor right now. It's nice to beat (doesn't happen all the time) your buds when your shooting minor and they're shooting major.

With the cost of everything going up, set a capacity limit so it doesn't 'obsolete' all of the .40 guns and let the shooter deal with the harsher recoil if they choose to accept that as a trade off for being able to shoot for less and spend less on the required accessories.

[Shay1911]

Just curious because I havent been around for very long, but how did 9mm major get into open division? What was the logic in allowing 9mm to be major in Open as compared to Limited?

[wide45]

What makes you think that 9mm major will be signifigantly cheaper than .40?

The difference in brass cost is not huge.

9mm in limited will run the heaviest bullets possible.

Compare heavy 9mm bullets with similar weight .40 bullets.

.40 can be loaded at close to the same cost.

[Vlad]

Hence it is NON-COMPETITIVE!!!

I further heard that there are other divisions besides limited, but I really shouldn't belive everything I hear.

[scribble]

I think the entire intention of Production division was for cost and to eliminate the equipment race.

I could see a production limited division possibly appearing in future as everything is cheaper, guns, mags, etc.

Edited July 11, 2008 by cooter79

[AikiDale]

I do not see the causal relationship between caliber and new shooters Z. If a new shooter prefers the economy of 9mm, it would seem to me he would also see the economy of the $400 to $500 production division pistol. He gets to shoot the same game with the most economical round.

If our game were only about speed and accuracy we could all save a whole lot of money by shooting .22 caliber pistols. Why, if we only used round plates for targets we might even be able to become an Olympic sport and that would swell our membership. Our game evolved from practical shooting, based on the concept of speed, accuracy and power. Our scoring zones relate to the relative speed one could speculate a person shot with either a major or minor caliber would cease and desist from his felonious assault.

All practical shooting considerations aside, allowing 9mm major would be giving a slightly faster bullet of the same diameter the same scoring capability as a larger caliber; why? Is it really that much harder to shoot a 38 super than a 9mm parabelum on the size of the targets we shoot at the distances we shoot?

Rather than see 9 major in Limited, it would make as much sense to recognize Limited Minor as a separate division. I am not suggesting that either!

(can we blame all this on Tiger Woods not playing in the Ryder Cup?)

[HoMiE]

I say get rid of the difference in scoring, every division is scored minor, but have the PF limit of 165 for all divisions except production. Then we can see how competitive 9 major or 38 super is in limited/l10/ss. It will also make the game harder as minor scoring vs. speed makes you shoot more accurate.

[zhunter]

If our game were only about speed and accuracy we could all save a whole lot of money by shooting .22 caliber pistols. Why, if we only used round plates for targets we might even be able to become an Olympic sport and that would swell our membership. Our game evolved from practical shooting, based on the concept of speed, accuracy and power. Our scoring zones relate to the relative speed one could speculate a person shot with either a major or minor caliber would cease and desist from his felonious assault.

Notice the word YOU used, "evolved"? That is my point, my thread is about evolution of our sport and staying ahead of the curve rather than chasing it after the fact

[RIIID]

If you want economics to dictate the rules, start your own shooting game Z. Practical shooting is an expensive sport, it's not for everyones pocket book. There's other cheaper shooting games out there.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

Threads merged.

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't really consider using 9mm in Limited for major as "evolving."

[Chuck Anderson]

I'm going to say guess that there are a large number of USPSA members that would not like to see the sport evolve into a PC .22 lr event. Whether 9mm would be cheaper or not in Limited really goes against the founding principles of the sport. I think allowing the smaller caliber in is a bad idea. I think putting a cap on magazine capacity in Limited or Open is a bad idea. We're already limited to a specific capacity in 2/3 of the Divisions.

You say this would be for new shooters. How easy is it to expalin to new shooters that they can shoot a 9mm in major in Limited, but they have to load it so that it is unsafe in that stock Glock 17 they just bought because the rules say 9mm can make major. I just think this is a really bad idea. My $.02

[Dave Gundry]

9 isn't allowed to make major in anything but an Open gun because you are severely pushing the limits of most barrels. Allowing folks to start playing with 9 major in Limited is just asking for some kabooms.

I would love to see Limited Minor become a separate div. I shoot it, but only because: a, it's CHEAP. b, as a low B shooter, I do not really stand a chance of winning my division at a major match, so I shoot for fun and the bragging rights associated with shooting minor and sometimes doing fairly well. c, Going from 8 rounds of 45 to 23 rounds of 9 has really taught me a few things about shooting and how I shoot - I don't own any hicap major guns, so 9 it is for me.

[AikiDale]

I'd be willing to vote for Limited Minor as a Category.

If you win you win. If you don't win you can still compare how you did with the other minor caliber shooters.

[Flexmoney]

I also merged Z-hunter's new thread into this one, as it is the same topic (9 major).