Limited Optics with a Converted 40 Cal Limited Gun - Let's DO THIS!!!

[Ryan626]

I appreciate your post Charlie as I'm in the same boat.  I have 2 STI Edge in 40 that has been sitting in the safe since I've switch to CO.  Turned my CZ Prod guns to CO and I hate having my STI's unused in the safe.  Something to think about for sure.

 

[Racinready300ex]

2 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

I think that by this time next year Limited Optics or whatever division variant it morphs into by then will become one of the primary Divisions participated in. I have always preferred competing in divisions where the most competition depth and heat exists. Today the hot division is Carry Optics. But I think that over time more CO shooters will move over to LO and LO will be as or if not more popular than CO. We will see. 

 

I think this is 100% spot on. LO is going to be the division and if anyone thinks it's interests them they should just jump on now and get their feet wet with what ever they have.

 

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

I think you'd be better off to try to sell the 40 gun or leave it in the safe and just build/buy a nine. 

 

 

I agree, that's basically what I did. Burned up most of my 40 now that caliber is basically dead to me.

 

Something crazy is thinking back not that long ago, someone would post a 9mm 2011 in the classified and no one wanted it. It'd basically just sit there for sale and cheap as there was zero usefulness to us as USPSA shooters. Now the tables have turned and 40 limited guns sit there for a long time. 

 

A couple years and one or two rule changes and this sport can be turned on it's head. Kind of crazy IMO.

[motosapiens]

16 minutes ago, RJH said:

While the 40 maybe theoretically softer, that would be the only possible advantage it would have. Obviously it would hold less ammo, but that dog's been beat to death and I don't think it's a huge deal since you would have at least 20 rounds with the 40 as well. The real issue is ammo cost and where the future is headed for the sport. That's why I would only do a 40 long enough to burn up whatever components I had.

 

i've shot lots of 40 minor, and it is a bit softer, but i don't think that's an advantage because it's not any faster. ammo cost is a thing. 40 costs me 1.5-2cents more per round, so if i shoot the division for 15-20 years, i will have spent close to half the cost of a new gun. Not sure that's enough to move the needle for me.... I'll probably burn up the components I have and then order more in bulk rather than buy a new gun or convert the existing one to 9..... but I have lots of 40 brass and i find reloading 40 to be significantly easier than 9.

 

The big 'advantage' to 40 is we already have 3 of them that only need a dovetail mount to compete.

[Racinready300ex]

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned is 40 just makes a bigger hole. I know a shooter here who ran 40 and on top of the softness it meant a few more Alpha's over the course of a major match. Figure every time you need a overlay with your 9mm a 40 would clearly touch. Those points can be the difference in a couple places at a match like nationals. In a capacity restricted division like Prod it's really a advantage. Not one that ever caught on, but it's there. 

[zzt]

I have a full race CZ 75 TS 40 with a dovetail mounted dot that I used for Open in SCSA for years.  Once I built dedicated 2011 and 1911 Open guns, it sat unused in a case.  I've thought about selling it for years, but never pulled the trigger.

 

While reorganizing my reloading room I found I had 3k+ 40 cal bullets stashed in various places.  I have plenty of brass and enough primers.  I replaced the old dovetail mount and sight with an SRO mount and sight, sighted it in and I'm ready to go.  Sight height is now pretty much the same as the sights on my frame mounted Open guns, so I can switch back and forth easily.  Fortunately, it works in the same race holster.  Now to load up some ammo.

[DKorn]

23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned is 40 just makes a bigger hole. I know a shooter here who ran 40 and on top of the softness it meant a few more Alpha's over the course of a major match. Figure every time you need an overlay with your 9mm a 40 would clearly touch. Those points can be the difference in a couple places at a match like nationals. In a capacity restricted division like Prod it's really an advantage. Not one that ever caught on, but it's there. 

I’ve seen that work against people too, where a 9mm would have barely missed a no shoot that a .40 hit. 
 

I think on the whole, it’s probably still an advantage, just something to keep in mind. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, DKorn said:

I’ve seen that work against people too, where a 9mm would have barely missed a no shoot that a .40 hit. 
 

I think on the whole, it’s probably still an advantage, just something to keep in mind. 

 

Oh yeah for sure it's a double edged sword. I think for someone who's pretty good it's more likely be a benefit to your score even if small. 

[sandflea316]

I bought a used tanfo. 40 slide since I still have a bunch of .40 brass and bullets during my time in limited division. Just got it back from having it milled for a dot

I shot production with a P226 using a minor load and it was enjoyable 

[mike4045]

I did the extra top end for it in 9mm LO. I used an old limited gun. I will be doing the 2nd one on my old 9mm limited for 3 gun. The guns were just collecting dust. 40 minor was tempting and still a possibility just cut it for an optic.

[pjb45]

I SVI in 9mm and one in 40 S&W.

Called EGW for their Bomar cut plate.

Kodiak Precision did the installation.

Also converted the 40 to 9mm.

I still have one SV in 40 S&W left--actually I use the frame for my .22 conversion unit sometimes.

Holosun sights fit nicely on the EGW plate.

 

[CHA-LEE]

My 2023 Major Match Season is now finished this past weekend. I shot the Colorado State Championships and the New Mexico Section Championships in Limited Optics Division using my 40 Cal Atlas Artemis. I was able to win both matches with this setup and didn't feel like I was at a significant disadvantage from a magazine capacity perspective.

 

I have also been shooting LO exclusively in practice and local matches for a while now and its an interesting challenge. Coming from shooting Major Power Factor divisions (Limited & Open) pretty much exclusively since 2008 its been a little difficult for me to figure out the correct shooting aggression pace for Minor scoring. I have been experimenting with different levels of shooting aggression and aiming points on target to see what will work best for Minor scoring.

 

So far I have been biasing my shooting aggression to a slightly too reserved pace which results in regularly capturing 93 - 97 percent of the available points. This is great points accumulation but doing so results in too slow of shooting on average. I need to figure out a slightly more aggressive shooting pace which is basically in between an effective Limited and Open Major PF pace. Its easy for me to shoot at a properly aggressive Open pace but then my available points capture drops to the 85% range. If I shoot at a properly aggressive Limited pace then my available points capture increases above 95%. The hardest part for me is getting used to the correct middle ground aggressive shooting pace between Limited and Open. I still have a lot of training and time behind the gun to get that middle ground aggressive shooting pace figured out.

 

My 40 Caliber Limited Optics Adventure will continue through the Winter Months and into the spring of 2024. By then I will likely have burned through all of the 40 Caliber bullets and brass I have and will make the switch to a 9mm setup. Or maybe I will switch back to shooting Open Major? We will see how it goes when the snow starts to melt in 2024 and the trajectory of the Divisions will be next year. 

[motosapiens]

7 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

My 2023 Major Match Season is now finished this past weekend. I shot the Colorado State Championships and the New Mexico Section Championships in Limited Optics Division using my 40 Cal Atlas Artemis. I was able to win both matches with this setup and didn't feel like I was at a significant disadvantage from a magazine capacity perspective.

 

color me not surprised.

 

we are going to put a dovetail mount dot on mrs moto's limited gun for winter, mostly because I don't want to hunt for 38sc brass in the snow.

[BritinUSA]

I think you will notice a big change in the recoil impulse when switching from 180grn to 125grn bullets. I tried 150grn for a while when I started in ProdOptics and there was a noticeable change when I switched to 125's.

 

If I recall the 150's were slightly more accurate and poppers fell a little more promptly.

[CHA-LEE]

7 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I think you will notice a big change in the recoil impulse when switching from 180grn to 125grn bullets. I tried 150grn for a while when I started in ProdOptics and there was a noticeable change when I switched to 125's.

 

If I recall the 150's were slightly more accurate and poppers fell a little more promptly.

 

Yeah, that is why I am choosing to use a slightly higher than normal Minor PF in the 145 - 150 range with the 40 Minor ammo I have loaded. This slightly hotter Minor ammo makes the felt recoil more "sharp" and a little closer to what 9mm ammo feels like. I actually like it when the ammo has a "Sharper" felt recoil as that in of itself forces me to grip the gun hard all the time. All that being said, I am absolutely sure that once I switch to 9mm ammo the felt recoil impulse will feel a lot different than my current 40 Minor ammo.

 

I have actually been testing the Super Vel Certified Select & Competition 9mm ammo in 115gr, 124gr and 147gr. So far I am liking the 124gr ammo the best from a felt recoil and accuracy perspective. There is always the Next "Project" in the works for me. If people knew how much gun & ammo testing & tuning I am regularly doing behind the scenes their heads would likely explode

[motosapiens]

On 10/24/2023 at 5:18 PM, CHA-LEE said:

 

Yeah, that is why I am choosing to use a slightly higher than normal Minor PF in the 145 - 150 range with the 40 Minor ammo I have loaded. This slightly hotter Minor ammo makes the felt recoil more "sharp" and a little closer to what 9mm ammo feels like. I actually like it when the ammo has a "Sharper" felt recoil as that in of itself forces me to grip the gun hard all the time. All that being said, I am absolutely sure that once I switch to 9mm ammo the felt recoil impulse will feel a lot different than my current 40 Minor ammo.

 

 

i loaded up a hundred rounds at 130-135 pf, and a handful of them felt 'extra light'. perhaps just at the low end of what will run the gun, perhaps an issue with such a small amount of powder in a 40 case. I bumped the load up to 140pf and that seems to feel alot more consistent and makes the slide move at a more reasonable speed. Still doesn't move the muzzle a whole lot on a 50+oz gun.

[zzt]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I bumped the load up to 140pf and that seems to feel alot more consistent and makes the slide move at a more reasonable speed.

 

That's what I ran in my CZ TS.  180gr coated TC bullet @ 139 PF.  2.8gr Alliant e3.  SD 6.75 for a 20-round string.  Still felt softer than a 9mm.

[vgdvc]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:01 AM, Racinready300ex said:

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned is 40 just makes a bigger hole. I know a shooter here who ran 40 and on top of the softness it meant a few more Alpha's over the course of a major match. Figure every time you need a overlay with your 9mm a 40 would clearly touch. Those points can be the difference in a couple places at a match like nationals. In a capacity restricted division like Prod it's really a advantage. Not one that ever caught on, but it's there. 

This is a reasonable advantage for a 135ish pf .40 shooting minor scoring only. In my area there were some M and GM shooting .40 in production. Granted, the round count was limited to 10 for any caliber but a .40 round nose flat point ,especially with a coated bullet ,makes a large pronounced hole. Think how many of those "just outside the A zone 9mm Cs" would be easily called as an Alpha with a 13% bigger hole that a .40 makes.

 180 grain .40 and Clays/Clay Dot is super soft shooting. Want some more snap? Load 155/165gr with Clays. Want it even snappier? Load 155/165gr and Tite group. Lots of options.

 I like the concept of taking a .40 gun, putting the advantages it has to offer to use, and whoop up on alot of the 9mms. I see it as some payback for trying to make .40 an obsolete cartridge and pushups ng out major scoring.

[vgdvc]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:50 AM, CHA-LEE said:

 

Those are great observations and basically where I am at in my situation. I have about 20K of 40 cal reloading components to burn through and several Limited guns sitting around doing nothing.

 

I think that by this time next year Limited Optics or whatever division variant it morphs into by then will become one of the primary Divisions participated in. I have always preferred competing in divisions where the most competition depth and heat exists. Today the hot division is Carry Optics. But I think that over time more CO shooters will move over to LO and LO will be as or if not more popular than CO. We will see. 

 

In the mean time I am going to burn up what I have in 40 Cal guns and ammo while honing what is needed to be competitive within this type of Red Dot / Minor Scoring division.

I hear you but Limited  Optics is still a provisional division correct?  Is there no chance that it will have minor/major scoring?

[CHA-LEE]

1 hour ago, vgdvc said:

I hear you but Limited  Optics is still a provisional division correct?  Is there no chance that it will have minor/major scoring?

 

I wouldn't say there is "No Chance" of anything changing associated with the Limited Optics division. Its almost guaranteed that something will change with regards to the Limited Optics Division rules or requirements. There has NEVER been a division deployed by USPSA which didn't go through several rule changes. This is especially true when a Division transitions from Provisional to a Normal Division. With regards to Major PF being adopted in Limited Optics, this has already been shot down several times by USPSA HQ so its unlikely to be deployed. But nobody really knows what will happen including USPSA. 

[vgdvc]

1 minute ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

I wouldn't say there is "No Chance" of anything changing associated with the Limited Optics division. Its almost guaranteed that something will change with regards to the Limited Optics Division rules or requirements. There has NEVER been a division deployed by USPSA which didn't go through several rule changes. This is especially true when a Division transitions from Provisional to a Normal Division. With regards to Major PF being adopted in Limited Optics, this has already been shot down several times by USPSA HQ so its unlikely to be deployed. But nobody really knows what will happen including USPSA. 

Sounds like more good reason to breathe new life into those .40 limited pistols. Get em set up with an optic (while keeping the option of reverting back to irons if possible). Shoot minor pf for now and take advantage of smooth recoil/ bigger holes.  IF LO becomes a minor/ major division you'll be gtg dominating in Major. Win-win for the .40 Limited guys who reload!

 For giggles I threw an EGW plate w/ optic on a Tanfo. Limited with 6" lightened upper. 155gr coated with Clays @138 pf.   15yds. 6 rounds at speed in center headbox was silly easy..... Didn't have my timer with me but speed,cadence,dot movement was  similar to my Brazos open gun at 175 PF. Not as snappy quick but everything landed where it needed to fast. Going to work with a few of my other limited pistols to see which feels best. I hope more experiment with the .40 LO option.

[CHARLES D]

I’ve been staying on top of this subject with great interest. Like many, I have a few 40 Limited STI’s.  Been debating to have a 9mm barrel fitted to the slide. I’ve known a few folks that have done this with no problems. 

[CHA-LEE]

15 hours ago, CHARLES D said:

I’ve been staying on top of this subject with great interest. Like many, I have a few 40 Limited STI’s.  Been debating to have a 9mm barrel fitted to the slide. I’ve known a few folks that have done this with no problems. 

The "Few folks that have done this with no problems" need to go buy some powerball tickets or actually shoot their guns with a decent amount of rounds to prove functionality. The 9mm barrel in a 40 Slide swap debate has been going on forever and the lifecycle of "It works until it doesn't work" continually repeats for the next person who thinks they can prove everyone wrong. The people who claim that this setup "Works" are also usually the same people who claim that their gun never jams, yet it jams every match and they seem to forget that it happened. 

 

Think about it this way, if it actually worked reliably long term don't you think that it would be universally accepted and sold as such broadly? It's not and that in of itself should tell you the answer you are looking for.

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, CHARLES D said:

I’ve been staying on top of this subject with great interest. Like many, I have a few 40 Limited STI’s.  Been debating to have a 9mm barrel fitted to the slide. I’ve known a few folks that have done this with no problems. 

just doing the math, i predict that as soon as i spent the money on a new barrel, the slide would probably crack, so im waiting until i need a whole top end.

 

in the meantime, im having better results with 40 minor than i was with 9, so it seems to be no disadvantage.

[Joe4d]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:01 AM, Racinready300ex said:

Something I don't think anyone has mentioned is 40 just makes a bigger hole. I know a shooter here who ran 40 and on top of the softness it meant a few more Alpha's over the course of a major match. Figure every time you need a overlay with your 9mm a 40 would clearly touch. Those points can be the difference in a couple places at a match like nationals. In a capacity restricted division like Prod it's really a advantage. Not one that ever caught on, but it's there. 

and also a few more no shoots. but Yeh usually way more edge target hits than overlayed no shoots in a match.  I liked the old round nose semi wadcutters back in the day. They cut nice clean round holes.

[zzt]

Well, as much as I prefer shooting 40 minor over 9mm, I'm going to change.  For one thing, the 3000+ 40 heads I thought I had turned out to be mostly 45s.  It's not worth changing over the press for 800 40s, so I'll sell the heads and give the 2.5 gallons of once fired 40 brass to a Limited shooting friend.

 

I just received a CZC SS 9mm barrel for my CZ 75 TS 40.  I'll be fitting it shortly.  I know that conversion works, because so many others have done it.  Hopefully the mags will work as well.   Then I'll just stick with 9mm and 45.