Limited Optics with a Converted 40 Cal Limited Gun - Let's DO THIS!!!

[CHA-LEE]

27 minutes ago, Muricanwerewolf said:

What percentage of shooters do you think have no difference in running a stage with a reload vs without a reload?

Maybe 10%........... If more could do it, there would be more M's & GM's.

[Muricanwerewolf]

8 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Maybe 10%........... If more could do it, there would be more M's & GM's.

Kinda what I'm getting at, very few people are at that level. So for most people, a reload isn't free.

[motosapiens]

Just now, Muricanwerewolf said:

Kinda what I'm getting at, very few people are at that level. So for most people, a reload isn't free.

they choose to make it not free by not practicing reloads.

[Muricanwerewolf]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

they choose to make it not free by not practicing reloads.

Do you think everybody could get to M or GM level if they just practiced more?

[CHA-LEE]

52 minutes ago, Muricanwerewolf said:

Kinda what I'm getting at, very few people are at that level. So for most people, a reload isn't free.

 

I understand the point you are trying to make. Everything is a give and take.

 

I just think that the probability of someone screwing up a risky round count stage plan by trying not to do a reload for the only justification of "I don't want to reload" is much higher than simply doing the reload.

 

The same people who don't reload aggressively are also not running aggressively between position. For the vast majority of those shooters, doing a reload or not while they are still NOT RUNNING will take the same time to get between positions. So yes, in that scenario doing a reload is still "Free" from a perspective of stage time. This assumes the person can do a 1.5 - 1.75 second reload which most C/B class skilled shooters can do. If someone has a reload north of 1.75 seconds then their overall skill level is going to be bad enough that doing a reload or not simply won't matter to their score.

 

As far as the term "Free" goes, my interpretation of that is that doing a reload shouldn't add more time to the stage vs not doing a reload. Does performing a reload increase the complexity of the movement task? Yes. Does doing a reload while moving increase the risk of screwing it up? Yes. Multi-tasking is never "Free" from those two perspectives.

[CHA-LEE]

45 minutes ago, Muricanwerewolf said:

Do you think everybody could get to M or GM level if they just practiced more?

 

"Everybody"? No. There are some competitors with physical limitations or disabilities which will always restrict their maximum performance to a sub M/GM level. These are the far exceptions. 

 

But the vast majority of shooters absolutely could achieve an M or GM classification if they simply put in the work and effective training to get there. It just so happens that the vast majority of shooters simply CHOOSE to not put in the work to get there. Being lazy isn't a valid excuse to something being unachievable.

[BritinUSA]

Back when I was good at this (a long, long time ago), I could reload on my Open gun very efficiently. I never took my eyes off the target, I could reload with my eyes shut just as fast as when they were open.

 

I practiced reloading 100+ times every night for weeks.

 

A moving reload would cost me nothing, and having those extra rounds in the magazine would allow me to shoot more aggressively than if I had just one or two spare rounds.

 

When I started shooting a ProdOptics gun (back before it was even provisional)  I found that doing a reload into the final position usually always worked out better for me; I don't think it's ever advisable to engage an array (especially steel) with just enough bullets left in the magazine.

[BritinUSA]

56 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Being lazy isn't a valid excuse to something being unachievable

I don't think it's necessarily lazy, most of the people in USPSA are hobby-shooters. It's something fun to do at the weekend.

 

Sure, they check their classification but they don't compete at any serious level so the lack of ability is not on their radar. They don't care enough to be lazy.

 

As long as they do just enough to beat their buddy, then they're okay with that.

[Muricanwerewolf]

48 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

"Everybody"? No. There are some competitors with physical limitations or disabilities which will always restrict their maximum performance to a sub M/GM level. These are the far exceptions. 

 

But the vast majority of shooters absolutely could achieve an M or GM classification if they simply put in the work and effective training to get there. It just so happens that the vast majority of shooters simply CHOOSE to not put in the work to get there. Being lazy isn't a valid excuse to something being unachievable.

 

I have to disagree with you there. I would say there are a great many people who are able bodied who couldn't reach GM even if they put in a ton of work. Most even. I know people who practice more than I and yet are not as good, I see guys come out every weekend and still stay in A class, who seem to have hit their peak. They're not lazy, they just can't break through. You probably have friends who are right in the spot I'm talking about, so it's kind of a wild thing to say that they're just too lazy lol.

 

I think the way you feel is a pretty common conceit people have; when they've worked hard and achieved great success they think that everybody could if they just put in the same amount of work. I don't think that belief is actually backed up by anything.

[sfinney]

I think anyone mentally and physically unhindered can probably make A with a lot of good training and effort to get consistent.

 

M takes a certain natural level of innate skill, and much work. Maybe even paper GMs to a certain level.

 

But real major match winning GM level performance imho takes more than a bit of natural born coordination, aptitude, and ability, plus lots of hard work and dedication.

 

But hey I could be wrong. I’m sure there are exceptions.

 

[CHA-LEE]

23 minutes ago, Muricanwerewolf said:

 

I have to disagree with you there. I would say there are a great many people who are able bodied who couldn't reach GM even if they put in a ton of work. Most even. I know people who practice more than I and yet are not as good, I see guys come out every weekend and still stay in A class, who seem to have hit their peak. They're not lazy, they just can't break through. You probably have friends who are right in the spot I'm talking about, so it's kind of a wild thing to say that they're just too lazy lol.

 

I think the way you feel is a pretty common conceit people have; when they've worked hard and achieved great success they think that everybody could if they just put in the same amount of work. I don't think that belief is actually backed up by anything.

 

I have probably trained thousands of practical shooting students at this point. All skill levels from U to GM. Able bodied adults fail at achieving their performance goals due to being lazy in some aspect of their training or preparation process. I have heard all of the excuses people have in not being able to achieve their goals. 99% of the time the root cause of their failure to improve comes back to giving up on something which is quickly justified by a perfectly crafted excuse with a bow on top. Its much easier for people to focus on the excuses as to why they can't succeed. That my friend is a clear definition of being "Lazy".

 

I also get it that some people choose to not embrace the suck, which is required to improve their skills. To these people, it a Social Hobby activity to do on the weekends with their buddies. If someone falls into that group, then they don't get to bitch about sucking or how impossible it is to make certain classification level.

[Muricanwerewolf]

23 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

I have probably trained thousands of practical shooting students at this point. All skill levels from U to GM. Able bodied adults fail at achieving their performance goals due to being lazy in some aspect of their training or preparation process. I have heard all of the excuses people have in not being able to achieve their goals. 99% of the time the root cause of their failure to improve comes back to giving up on something which is quickly justified by a perfectly crafted excuse with a bow on top. Its much easier for people to focus on the excuses as to why they can't succeed. That my friend is a clear definition of being "Lazy".

 

I also get it that some people choose to not embrace the suck, which is required to improve their skills. To these people, it a Social Hobby activity to do on the weekends with their buddies. If someone falls into that group, then they don't get to bitch about sucking or how impossible it is to make certain classification level.

Every single person who has not achieved the goal of becoming GM was too lazy to do it? No other reason? You sure?

[Racinready300ex]

I don't totally get how @CHA-LEEcan say it probably cost him 1/2 second on that classifier but also say it shouldnt cost you any time. Hope it's it both? 

[Racinready300ex]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

But in my experience, almost all stages have places where you can't shoot anything for a step or two, and in those stages reloads can be done essentially for free. I don't have any problem with doing 2 reloads in limited either if reduces the stress of going to 19-20 rds (or even 17-18 with steel). As Cha-lee teaches, reload quickly with the gun high and keep shooting.

 

I think the use of these qualifiers means were on the same page. 

[deerslayer]

As a lefty shooting stages usually set up by right handed people, I often find myself doing reloads in a position that is more awkward than it is for right-handers.  Sometimes I can move just as quickly, but other times I have to be more careful not to break 180 and am probably slightly slower.  This is especially true when I'm moving uprange to the right at an angle.  I hate reloading there, but sometimes it's all there is.  When I set up a stage that flows right to left or has the obvious Lim/CO/LO reloading spot while moving right to left, the right handers cry crocodile tears and say I have an advantage.  Well what about the last eight stages we shot?

[MHicks]

54 minutes ago, Muricanwerewolf said:

Every single person who has not achieved the goal of becoming GM was too lazy to do it? No other reason? You sure?

 

Some people may just be lazy generally but for many people it might be they just don't prioritize making the time to practice and work enough to have a chance of making M or GM. Not a priority.  It's still on the individual either way.

[CHA-LEE]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I don't totally get how @CHA-LEEcan say it probably cost him 1/2 second on that classifier but also say it shouldnt cost you any time. Hope it's it both? 

That specific stage scenario was already established as a far exception to what “Normal” field course stage design is. The vast majority of field course stages have 2 or more steps of non shooting movement where you can stick a reload. That is a fact which is proven every weekend during matches all across the nation. 
 

If you can’t separate these two facts within your logic assessment of needing more than 21 rounds in a mag to get the job done effectively in a division that limits mag length to 140mm, then it doesn’t matter what I or anyone else says. 
 

As I said before, excuses usually come with highly polished justifications. 

[RangerTrace]

7 hours ago, deerslayer said:

As a lefty shooting stages usually set up by right handed people, I often find myself doing reloads in a position that is more awkward than it is for right-handers.  Sometimes I can move just as quickly, but other times I have to be more careful not to break 180 and am probably slightly slower.  This is especially true when I'm moving uprange to the right at an angle.  I hate reloading there, but sometimes it's all there is.  When I set up a stage that flows right to left or has the obvious Lim/CO/LO reloading spot while moving right to left, the right handers cry crocodile tears and say I have an advantage.  Well what about the last eight stages we shot?

This happens a lot.  

[Racinready300ex]

7 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

 

As I said before, excuses usually come with highly polished justifications. 

 

Yes, this forum is primarily for telling people they suck. I get it, I can't reload.

 

But, I'll add the vast majority of people outside of this small group can't. It's easy to forget everyone here is a GM and that most can do sub second loads on the move with zero effect on their stage run. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[ChuckS]

OK, children. This thread is about converting limited guns to CO. Not for arguing about how good you are and how bad everyone else is. One more post and the thread is closed...

[Racinready300ex]

@CHA-LEE

 

Thinking about this some, maybe a little of the difference in thinking is our experience/background. You're a limited shooter running a massive magwell doing what 3 reloads in a club match? 

 

Over the summer I shot production, I found a indoor match only 2 hours away and started shooting there. Small fast stages. Best I did was 2nd OA, worst was 7th I was always the only low cap shooter. There is a decent Limited Master there I was chasing. He'd do 2 reloads, 3 if the classifier forced one. I'd do 8 over the match. Typically he beat me, I'd probably win stages here and there. If I was faster and more accurate he might still get me with major scoring. 

 

Does that prove either point? No not really. But the last couple times I went back with a high cap gun. Would it surprise you if I said I won every time? What changed? I went from 8 reloads to 3, that the biggest change. I'm not trying to make a excuse when I say I don't consider reloads to be "free". I don't see them as free, when I'm planning a stage with a high cap gun I'll pick the reload spot that gives me the most time and/or easiest to execute. 

 

I like to reload, and practicing reloads. Probably to a fault considering this is a high cap game now and reloads don't matter all that much. 

 

To the original point of the thread two things can be true at the same time. You can be competitive with a 20 round mag, in fact you don't need a 2011, a magwell or 50 oz of mass to get there. But a extra 5-6 rounds does have a slight edge that will come in handy from time to time. There are still plenty of places to overcome that slight edge. 

[motosapiens]

15 hours ago, Muricanwerewolf said:

Do you think everybody could get to M or GM level if they just practiced more?

i don't know, but I think pretty much everybody could learn to reload well enough to have it not cost them any time when moving. That's a pretty basic skill.

 

But back to the topic, we're not talking about SS vs open, 4 reloads vs zero or 1. We're talking about 20 vs 23-34, which is usually 1 reload each, or occasionally 1 reload vs 0 (and taking a chance). And we're also talking about having a huge-azz magwell.

 

For sure shooting ss or especially production, there are reloads required that are not free, because of the lack of magwell on the production gun and because you have so much less choice about where to reload, so anecdotes about losing matches when shooting prod or ss don't have much relevance to the topic of converting a 40 cal limited gun to LO.

 

Are there situations where the extra 3-4 rounds of 9mm could make a small difference? sure. Are there enough them to be significant? I suspect not, but I suppose we'll learn more about this topic in the next year or so. It looks like we're going to have both 9 and 40 LO options in the moto household.

[CHA-LEE]

My whole intent of this thread isn't to poke the bear or turn it into a bickering session about other topics. There are plenty of other threads on the BE forum that have already beat these other topics to death.

 

My intent in starting this thread is to give others information on competing effectively in the new Limited Optics division with a 40 cal setup. I know there are a boatload of competitors out there who have Iron Sight 40 cal Limited guns collecting dust in their safe or a bunch of 40 cal reloading components sitting unused. For these people, they can make use of these "Old" 40 cal guns and ammo in Limited Optics while still being competitive. Cutting a slide for a red dot and slapping a red dot on your Limited gun is a much cheaper way to dive into the LO division vs buying a whole new setup.

[RJH]

I've been following this topic a little bit since it started, and I think I've come to the conclusion that other than buying a plate to replace a rear sight and using your 40 caliber gun to burn up whatever components you have, anything else would be a sunk cost.

 

I think you'd be better off to try to sell the 40 gun or leave it in the safe and just build/buy a nine. 

 

While the 40 maybe theoretically softer, that would be the only possible advantage it would have. Obviously it would hold less ammo, but that dog's been beat to death and I don't think it's a huge deal since you would have at least 20 rounds with the 40 as well. The real issue is ammo cost and where the future is headed for the sport. That's why I would only do a 40 long enough to burn up whatever components I had.

[CHA-LEE]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

I've been following this topic a little bit since it started, and I think I've come to the conclusion that other than buying a plate to replace a rear sight and using your 40 caliber gun to burn up whatever components you have, anything else would be a sunk cost.

 

I think you'd be better off to try to sell the 40 gun or leave it in the safe and just build/buy a nine. 

 

While the 40 maybe theoretically softer, that would be the only possible advantage it would have. Obviously it would hold less ammo, but that dog's been beat to death and I don't think it's a huge deal since you would have at least 20 rounds with the 40 as well. The real issue is ammo cost and where the future is headed for the sport. That's why I would only do a 40 long enough to burn up whatever components I had.

 

Those are great observations and basically where I am at in my situation. I have about 20K of 40 cal reloading components to burn through and several Limited guns sitting around doing nothing.

 

I think that by this time next year Limited Optics or whatever division variant it morphs into by then will become one of the primary Divisions participated in. I have always preferred competing in divisions where the most competition depth and heat exists. Today the hot division is Carry Optics. But I think that over time more CO shooters will move over to LO and LO will be as or if not more popular than CO. We will see. 

 

In the mean time I am going to burn up what I have in 40 Cal guns and ammo while honing what is needed to be competitive within this type of Red Dot / Minor Scoring division.