Limited Optics with a Converted 40 Cal Limited Gun - Let's DO THIS!!!

[IVC]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

But, 21 vs 25 rounds in the gun isn't nothing. I'm sure it depends on the shooters skill right? Some B class guy might be more likely to go war on a piece of steel. If he take's 2 or 3 make up shots on a mini popper, suddenly those extra rounds might be huge. I know shooting limited there were a couple times that 1 extra round I could cram in my mag saved my ass. 

Going to "war on a piece of steel" won't happen with the B class shooter at close to 20 rounds already fired. If he's not sure about it and wants to blast away, he'll reload just prior to getting to that steel.

 

Even experienced shooters rarely have a pressing need to push the limit to the last round. There will be at least *some* movement somewhere during the stage where reloads are free. As long as the capacity doesn't force the tactics and extra reloads, the actual number of rounds is not all that important. On a long course, all hi-cap divisions except PCC will usually reload *exactly once*, whether it's 21 or 25, and there will be ammo to spare in each magazine on the ground.

 

Of course, there are exceptions where one can squeeze by without a reload, but that's just pushing luck for the marginal gain at best, since reload *somewhere* during the COF will likely be either free or very cheap. 

[IVC]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

I don't see the point of rebarreling to 9.  If you shot Limited, you already reload.  So, shoot 40 minor.  You already stage plan with 20-round mags.  What do you think an extra three will get you?  Maybe once a year it might be helpful.

 

I shot 40 Open for a couple of years.  Everyone said I was nuts.  20 and 26 rounds instead of 23 and 29.  Cukoo.  BS.  That was never an issue.  If anyone made a one-piece 40 barrel/comp, I'd still be shooting 40 Open.  Way softer, flatter and quieter than 9 major.

The reason is the brass. It's similar to why 9 Major exists at all - exclusively because of the brass. If 38 SC brass was as plentiful as 9mm at local ranges, it would be beyond silly to tinker with the 9 Major. Compressed loads and not enough gas to run the comp are the price of plentiful free brass. The same goes for .40 these days. 

[CHA-LEE]

When a stage gets at or above 10 Hit Factor, and the target arrays are setup in a manner which allows for 24 rounds of non-stop shooting while blending positions, that is when not needing to do a reload becomes a significant advantage.

 

Through my match experience since 2008, attending 50+ Level 1 matches and 10+ Level 2/3 matches a year, these types of stage scenarios are RARE.

 

Do these stage scenarios exist? Yes.

 

Are they common enough to worry about? No.

[zzt]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I know you're all about the 40 life.

 

Not really.  I shot it for a long time in Limited and Open, so I'm quite familiar with stage planning with 20 round mags.  There was one stage in my very first USPSA match where I had to do a standing reload.  Noob.  What can I say.  It never happened again.  There is always a place or two where you can reload without costing time.   I don't shoot it much anymore.  I shoot 9-10k 9mm a year.  Mostly major, but a lot of minor and PCC.

[zzt]

34 minutes ago, IVC said:

The reason is the brass. It's similar to why 9 Major exists at all - exclusively because of the brass. If 38 SC brass was as plentiful as 9mm at local ranges, it would be beyond silly to tinker with the 9 Major. Compressed loads and not enough gas to run the comp are the price of plentiful free brass. The same goes for .40 these days. 

 

I have mountains of 40sw brass.  So much that I don't take it from my home club range anymore.

 

You are also incorrect about 9 major and 40.  If you choose your major powder wisely, you are not compressed and have plenty of gas to run the poppels and the comp.  With 40 Open you are never compressed.  You can use any powder you want as still fit a small fridge in the case.

[shred]

There's no question there are more powder options at less pressure for 38SC vs 9x19 just due to the additional case volume.   There were a lot of 38SCs on the super squads and not-so-super squads at Nationals.

 

That said I've mentioned many times that the 9x25 Dillon is the undisputed king of case volume and ultimate flatness in an Open gun, yet nobody runs them anymore for other good reasons.

 

I think .40 LO gun is pretty interesting if you are set up for it.  Tap out rear sight, tap in dovetail plate, go embarrass custom-built LO pistols.

 

 

 

[IVC]

7 hours ago, zzt said:

I have mountains of 40sw brass.  So much that I don't take it from my home club range anymore.

You might, but at most ranges there are slim pickings of .40 compared to 9mm. The ratio is at least 10:1 in favor of 9mm. 

 

 

7 hours ago, zzt said:

You are also incorrect about 9 major and 40.  If you choose your major powder wisely, you are not compressed and have plenty of gas to run the poppels and the comp.

My point was about availability of brass.

 

If 38 SC was plentiful and free, and you had to pay for 9mm brass, nobody would ever shoot 9 Major. Nobody. Literally the only reason 9 Major exists is the brass availability. Yes, 9 Major can work out and have enough gas, but the number of powders is much more limited and there is no benefit in cramming it all into a shorter case. Everything from feeding to the choice of powders is a clear win for the 38 SC. Except the brass availability, which brings us back to the original point. 

[Shootist007]

I struggle with this topic. I have 2 STI 40S&W 2011's and have been think of taking one and getting a new slide and barrel to convert it to 9mm. I have 7 9mm 1911 DS/2011 mags (5 SA Duramags and 2 Atlas) that I use with my Prodigy. If I do the conversion I want the slide-barrel FIT to my frame so I can switch back and forth from 9 to 40 and back at will.

 

Problem is, as others have said, the Brass. I only have about 4+ thousand pieces of 40S&W where currently I have about 9+ thousand 9mm once fired pieces and I'm still collecting.

40 brass is hard to come by and expensive to buy. 20 years ago it was easy to pick up. Now If I get 20-50 pieces every now and then that is a lot.

 

As to optics I'm not interested. I still shoot iron sights and will continue to do so forever. I can still see the front sight fine. As for a DOT to see that clearly I need to wear my low powered reading glasses and then I can't see the target clearly (I've just completed my seventy second year).

 

Oh and I do not need or have a Flash Light attached to any of my guns and I never will. But that is a topic for some other thread.

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Not really.  I shot it for a long time in Limited and Open, so I'm quite familiar with stage planning with 20 round mags.  There was one stage in my very first USPSA match where I had to do a standing reload.  Noob.  What can I say.  It never happened again.  There is always a place or two where you can reload without costing time.   I don't shoot it much anymore.  I shoot 9-10k 9mm a year.  Mostly major, but a lot of minor and PCC.

 

When I said you're all about the 40 life, I get that from all the posts you make about 40. Just saying you don't doesn't change how much you've talked up 40. 

 

13 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I have mountains of 40sw brass. 

 

I'm sure you do, and there are probably others like you. But, my local matches there might be 1 or 2 limited shooters, so the vast majority of brass on the ground is 9mm. Outside of competition I see even less people shooting 40. Meanwhile I can get as much 9mm brass as I'm willing to bend over and pick up. 

 

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, IVC said:

Going to "war on a piece of steel" won't happen with the B class shooter at close to 20 rounds already fired. If he's not sure about it and wants to blast away, he'll reload just prior to getting to that steel.

 

You're really never seen a shooter miss a piece of steel 2 or 3 times? Never seen someone take to many make up shots and run a high cap gun dry? I'm honestly surprised, maybe shooters around here are trash but I see it from time to time. 

 

 

[sfinney]

So your stage plan is to have several extra rounds per mag in case you miss alot, but hopefully not have to use those rounds  (but if you do try to make up for that in the speed of not having a dry forced standing reload)  --- rather than use the 24 or 25 round mag to have a better reload point that makes the stage easier/smarter........  hmmmm.  Wouldn't be my plan. YRMV.

[shred]

IMO If it takes a 24-round mag to get to a reasonable reload point, the stage design is crap (not that they don't exist, they just shouldn't).

 

It's still a thing that super squad shooters reload a lot more often in stages than the wannabee's do.  There's probably a reason for that.

 

 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

45 minutes ago, sfinney said:

So your stage plan is to have several extra rounds per mag in case you miss alot, but hopefully not have to use those rounds  (but if you do try to make up for that in the speed of not having a dry forced standing reload)  --- rather than use the 24 or 25 round mag to have a better reload point that makes the stage easier/smarter........  hmmmm.  Wouldn't be my plan. YRMV.

 

 

Why not both? I mean with 24-26 in the gun you'll basically always have several extra's. You can pretty much do what ever you want on a stage and not get in trouble. 

 

 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

That new classifier ( trigger freeze I think 

it’s nice to have 24 and not have to reload.  There might be a couple more it’s nice to have 24+1

[rowdyb]

3 hours ago, shred said:

in stages than the wannabee's do.  There's probably a reason for tha

Aggression is its own security?

[IVC]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You're really never seen a shooter miss a piece of steel 2 or 3 times? Never seen someone take to many make up shots and run a high cap gun dry? I'm honestly surprised, maybe shooters around here are trash but I see it from time to time. 

 

 

Of course I've seen it, and no need to get sarcastic because my statement wasn't that idiotic.

 

Most B and above shooters here will plan conservatively on steel if they are not comfortable with an array, so when they miss any number of times they don't run dry. Unless they miss a lot, which happens too, but then the extra few rounds are neither the solution nor what they should fix in their shooting. The conservative plan is simply to reload at the best point before the steel. 

 

Here's my observation. Newer shooters who struggle with hitting targets won't lose much by running dry, they've already spent a few rounds per each piece of steel. The seasoned shooters who are mid-level classes will consider difficulty of targets and reality of potential misses in their stage plan, so they'll mostly arrive at the array with some ammo to spare. And even the top level shooters, who not only practice speed but also work a lot on avoiding make up shots, will rarely make a plan that doesn't allow for make up shots on steel.  So, the situations where the small amount of extra capacity is crucial are rare, and most of us can roll with anything that is 20+ without making changes in stage planning. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

That new classifier ( trigger freeze I think 

it’s nice to have 24 and not have to reload.  There might be a couple more it’s nice to have 24+1

that's the only stage I can recall seeing where a 24 round mag was an advantage. so i borrowed one from the guy that shot before me last week, lol.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

That new classifier ( trigger freeze I think 

it’s nice to have 24 and not have to reload.  There might be a couple more it’s nice to have 24+1

 

Most guys here can reload on the move with zero lost time. 

 

19 hours ago, zzt said:

 

 There is always a place or two where you can reload without costing time. 

20 hours ago, IVC said:

There will be at least *some* movement somewhere during the stage where reloads are free.

 

[zzt]

3 hours ago, motosapiens said:

that's the only stage I can recall seeing where a 24 round mag was an advantage. so i borrowed one from the guy that shot before me last week, lol.

 

I watched this on YouTube when it first came out.  Many of the top shooters reloaded on that stage without costing time.

[zzt]

On 9/22/2023 at 8:54 AM, Racinready300ex said:

When I said you're all about the 40 life, I get that from all the posts you make about 40. Just saying you don't doesn't change how much you've talked up 40. 

 

I talk up 40sw because it is a wonderful caliber, even if I don't shoot it much anymore.   I simply don't get all those who say you absolutely have to convert to 9 for LO.  BS.  If brass is your only concern, go to your local Targetmaster or other indoor range.  Targetmaster sells bulk ammo boxes full of once-fired 40 brass for $15.  That's about 1.5 cents for each case.  If you don't reload, change to 9mm.  If not, stay with 40 minor.

Edited September 23, 2023 by zzt

[konkapot]

There are several .40 limited guns on GB right now. Not vouching for them...no ties to them at all. Prices are....ok. 

[llamasabound]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I watched this on YouTube when it first came out.  Many of the top shooters reloaded on that stage without costing time.

There is nowhere to reload on that stage that doesn’t cost time. You can move between the back right target into m the inside middle in less than a second, and transition from the far right middle target directly to the far left open in <.60. To be fully competitive in CO (or now LO) you cannot try to hide a reload. I have not seen any limited major gun run the top end CO times for that stage (because of the reload). This fact is reflected in the higher HHF for CO vs Limited, since a red dot confers negligible advantages on 4 yard targets, and the 4 no shoot partials should reward major scoring. 
 

I realize in the 2021 nationals many folks took a more conservative approach, but there is no “free” reload. (I don’t think there is ever is — having to reload when someone else doesn’t always has a marginal cost associated with it, if only from fracturing attention for a moment, although that’s another argument). 

[motosapiens]

16 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I watched this on YouTube when it first came out.  Many of the top shooters reloaded on that stage without costing time.

i guess it depends how you do it. my reloads with CO aren't as good as with SS or Lim. I was able to pretty much keep the gun up and shooting the whole time in under 8 seconds. About 2 seconds faster than i shoot it in SS. for sure tho, if I moved faster and reloaded better, it would be less of an issue, lol. I think if you use the reload to get a little closer to the targets, you can probably shoot a little quicker too. with a dot i felt comfortable just taking a step forward to get to the middle array, from which point you can already engage the outside targets of the front left array.

 

I don't feel like the reloads cost me in SS because I would have had to slow down more to shoot from further back or while moving. To be certain in CO I would have to run it both ways a couple times, and I think it's a dumb classifier and a dumb stage and a waste of ammo, so I probably won't do that.

[IVC]

On 9/22/2023 at 10:19 AM, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

That new classifier ( trigger freeze I think 

it’s nice to have 24 and not have to reload.  There might be a couple more it’s nice to have 24+1

Yup, there is always a way to construct a stage like that - hosing and no idle time. But if you added one more target to the classifier, there would be again no difference between 20 and 24 rounders. Even replacing some targets with steel, while keeping the count at 24, would provide an interesting dilemma for most shooters. 

 

But we are talking about the "vast majority" of time, not about "impossibility" of the few extra rounds making a difference. Take all the stages that you've shoot recently and count how many had (1) between 22 and 25 rounds, (2) were constant hosing and (3) had no significant movement. Then compare to the number of stages that didn't fall into that category. 

[IVC]

23 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Most guys here can reload on the move with zero lost time. 

Most guys here can use misplaced sarcasm to make a strawman argument.