Limited Optics with a Converted 40 Cal Limited Gun - Let's DO THIS!!!

[Racinready300ex]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:04 PM, zzt said:

 

I talk up 40sw because it is a wonderful caliber, even if I don't shoot it much anymore.   I simply don't get all those who say you absolutely have to convert to 9 for LO.  BS.  If brass is your only concern, go to your local Targetmaster or other indoor range.  Targetmaster sells bulk ammo boxes full of once-fired 40 brass for $15.  That's about 1.5 cents for each case.  If you don't reload, change to 9mm.  If not, stay with 40 minor.

 

Never heard of a targetmaster. Closest indoor ranges are 2 hours away. But as I said, not my only concern, it's brass, cost, availability and capacity. 9 is the better option. I'm sure we can agree we wouldn't recommend anyone not already invested in 40 go out looking for one for LO. That'd be silly.

 

I agree, you don't absolutely have to convert to 9 for LO. If it's convenient to stay with 40 do so, but 9 clearly has advantages. 

[Racinready300ex]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:55 PM, IVC said:

Most guys here can use misplaced sarcasm to make a strawman argument. 

 

That's sorta sarcasm. With out a doubt there are B class shooters on this page who will tell you they loose no time reloading on the move vs just moving and honestly they're full of it.

[CHA-LEE]

It's funny that the 24 round Classifier "8 x 3 Trigger Freeze" came up in this discussion as one of the local Club matches had this Classifier two weekends ago when I was shooting Limited Optics using my 40 Cal gun. Yes I had to do a reload when others shooting CO, LO, OPN, and PCC with 9mm didn't. Guess what, I still won the stage overall. Did it cost me about half a second more to do the reload compared to others who didn't? Yep. Did that "disadvantage" dramatically impact my overall performance in the match? Nope.

 

In fact, last weekend I attended a Club Match in Florida which was all high round count field course stages and more than half of the stages I had to do two reloads instead of one. Yep, it was such a disadvantage that I still won that match out of all the LO/CO shooters as well.

 

Here is the reality guys, these so called disadvantages in mag capacity with 20 rounds vs 23 is BS most of the time. People are rarely losing matches because of an extra reload here or there regardless of it being masked in movement or not. There are a boat load of other things people are doing to waste time or points on the clock. The mountain of other skills you are screwing up regularly need way more attention and refinement than a few extra rounds in a mag will provide.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

True, true but for an average height shooter there’s maybe a half a step to one full step where your not shooting on that classifier. 
would you have run it faster if you didn’t have to reload ? 
I get what you’re saying. And your right it won’t cost you the match 

but for you .. would you have been faster if your don’t have to reload ?

not compared to anyone else. 
I would say that the “ the reload didn’t hurt me “would be in a several step movement where no shooting could take place.  
leaving out the top 95% shooters. 
nothing slows them down. 
 

[CHA-LEE]

On 9/26/2023 at 3:33 PM, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

True, true but for an average height shooter there’s maybe a half a step to one full step where your not shooting on that classifier. 
would you have run it faster if you didn’t have to reload ? 
I get what you’re saying. And your right it won’t cost you the match 

but for you .. would you have been faster if your don’t have to reload ?

not compared to anyone else. 
I would say that the “ the reload didn’t hurt me “would be in a several step movement where no shooting could take place.  
leaving out the top 95% shooters. 
nothing slows them down. 
 

 

As stated in my post, Adding a reload to that Classifier cost me about half a second vs not needing to do a reload. Did it cost me extra time? Absolutely. Did that extra time pull down my potential Hit Factor on that Classifier? Absolutely. Is that stage or others like it an anomaly vs what we are normally exposed to in 24 round stages? Absolutely. 

[IVC]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

Is that stage or others like it an anomaly vs what we are normally exposed to in 24 round stages? Absolutely. 

^^^ Exactly. 

 

The strawman counterargument pushed in this thread is that there *exist* stages and stage designs where the extra capacity matters. Doh, nobody is denying that. The argument is that those stages are very uncommon, not that they don't exist. And not only are they uncommon, but they must have exactly between 22 and 25 rounds (which eliminates all short and medium courses) and they have to have a very specific flow to add any time.

 

Even this classifier didn't add the cost of a full standing reload, only a fraction of it, because there was still movement that ate a part of the reload time. 

[Muricanwerewolf]

I'd say no reload is "free", it's one more thing to do on the stage and if you didn't have to reload you could focus fully on movement and the next position.

[Racinready300ex]

51 minutes ago, Muricanwerewolf said:

I'd say no reload is "free", it's one more thing to do on the stage and if you didn't have to reload you could focus fully on movement and the next position.

 

That is my thinking, nothing is free

 

And extra rounds help when you make a mistake. I shot a stage at a local State match last week and ran dry. I took one make up shot I didn't need on a piece of steel that was falling but hadn't fallen yet. It tipped over right as I shot. My brain thought about that make up shot while I was supposed to be reloading. So I didn't reload, I squeezed in the reload at the next spot that made sense and got to the last position with no round in the chamber. I'm guessing it cost me 2 seconds and took me from a likely 99% finish to a 88% on that stage. If I had crammed one more round in my start mag I'd of been golden. 

 

Another friend on my squad reloaded in the same place, he was fine as he can load 26 rounds at the start in CO. Really he could of shot the stage with out reloading and still been fine. When you have less to think about, and less to do, there is less to go wrong. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Racinready300ex

[Shadow]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

 

Another friend on my squad reloaded in the same place, he was fine as he can load 26 rounds at the start in CO. 

What gun/mag combo holds a legal 25 + 1 in CO?   Just curious.

[Runswithwood1]

4 minutes ago, Shadow said:

What gun/mag combo holds a legal 25 + 1 in CO?   Just curious.

Some of the tso mags with henning basepads and mbx followers can shove 25. I can almost get 25 shoved in a mecgar, henning plus 5/6 base pad and mbx follower but its a little too tight for comfort. It's right at the 140mm threshold but its legal

[Racinready300ex]

22 minutes ago, Shadow said:

What gun/mag combo holds a legal 25 + 1 in CO?   Just curious.

 

M&P's and in this case a PX4. Both using these

 

https://csrgstore.us/collections/all

[ddc]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

M&P's and in this case a PX4. Both using these

 

https://csrgstore.us/collections/all

 

I wonder how that would work in a P320 mag. They are very similar to M&P mags, at least as far as base plate dimensions are concerned.

[Racinready300ex]

14 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

I wonder how that would work in a P320 mag. They are very similar to M&P mags, at least as far as base plate dimensions are concerned.

 

I imagine he's had someone try them in a 320 by now. He made them for the PX4 and then just found they worked in other stuff pretty well too. As popular as the 320 is someone has to of tried it by now. Shoot him a message and ask. 

[deerslayer]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:20 PM, IVC said:

^^^ Exactly. 

 

The strawman counterargument pushed in this thread is that there *exist* stages and stage designs where the extra capacity matters. Doh, nobody is denying that. The argument is that those stages are very uncommon, not that they don't exist. And not only are they uncommon, but they must have exactly between 22 and 25 rounds (which eliminates all short and medium courses) and they have to have a very specific flow to add any time.

 

I completely disagree.  I’ve shot a lot of Limited major lately while squadded with a bunch of CO/LO guys and just about every match have said, “Boy I wish I could do that” or “Wish I didn’t have to reload there” even on 32 round stages where everybody has a reload.  I’m classified as Master, have a fat magwell, and know a thing or two about quick reloads.  Twenty rounds vs. 23 or 24 is often a non-factor, but from my experience, it is an issue more frequently than some realize or want to admit. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by deerslayer

[ddc]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I imagine he's had someone try them in a 320 by now. He made them for the PX4 and then just found they worked in other stuff pretty well too. As popular as the 320 is someone has to of tried it by now. Shoot him a message and ask. 

 

Possible... 

I'm a little down on the idea though...

I've tried the Rune Tactical and the MBX and am less than impressed.

The Rune version was a joke; only able to load 23.

The MBX I could load 24 but couldn't get the first round to reliably feed if a round was already chambered.

[CHA-LEE]

Back to the regularly schedule program

 

My 40 Cal Limited Optics adventure is still going well. Even though I can cram 21 rounds in my 40 cal 140mm mags the vast majority of the time I am starting with 20+1 and reloading to a 20 round mag. I will start 21+1 or reload to a 21 round mag once in a while but its not very common. I am basically using the same mag capacity strategy as I did when shooting Limited division.

 

So far I have only run into 1 stage where not having 23/24 rounds in the gun was a slight maximum performance disadvantage and that was the 8x3 Classifier I mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

While observing other CO & LO shooters during matches, I have actually seen more people get screwed by NOT reloading (starting with 23+1 or 24+1) and unexpectedly running the gun dry forcing an unplanned reload on the clock. This "I don't have to reload, I got all the PEW's" mentality isn't something new to CO or LO. The same thing happens to most other High Cap division shooters when they first start shooting those divisions (Open, PCC, etc.). 

 

There is a definitive difference between not reloading to create a true competitive advantage vs not reloading because you refuse to practice reloads and suck at doing them. If your primary reason for not wanting to do a reload is due to sucking at reloading, then fix your reloading skills issue. Don't use mag capacity as a crutch to mask known poor reloading skills.

[Racinready300ex]

Side note, I've now got mags for my p365 that can start 21+1 and are 20 reloadable. Should be a fun gun to play in LO/CO with. Putting me in the same boat as you crazy 40 guys lol. 

[Racinready300ex]

On 10/9/2023 at 11:07 PM, deerslayer said:

I completely disagree.  I’ve shot a lot of Limited major lately while squadded with a bunch of CO/LO guys and just about every match have said, “Boy I wish I could do that” or “Wish I didn’t have to reload there” even on 32 round stages where everybody has a reload.  I’m classified as Master, have a fat magwell, and know a thing or two about quick reloads.  Twenty rounds vs. 23 or 24 is often a non-factor, but from my experience, it is an issue more frequently than some realize or want to admit. 

 

I wonder if it's something people often won't notice because it's not available to them. 

[motosapiens]

On 10/9/2023 at 8:25 AM, Muricanwerewolf said:

I'd say no reload is "free", it's one more thing to do on the stage and if you didn't have to reload you could focus fully on movement and the next position.

it may be helfpul to test this theory, and see if you can reduce your time between shots by not reloading during a short movement. With a limited gun, my shot-to-shot time is the same when moving 2-3 yards. I haven't tested it with CO, but the lack of magwell (and probably lack of practice, lol) means I have to pay a little more attention, which I think may slow me down slightly. Looking at my video of last match seems to confirm that belief.

 

With that in mind, I'd say reloads are pretty much free in limited (or LO), but might not always be entirely free for people who don't practice enough in CO. YMMV.

[konkapot]

I don't have my old notebooks, but for me each reload cost me a second over my time with a Limited gun. A 20 round stage I shot in limited in 10 seconds took me 12-ish second shooting Sstk major. I wondered at the time if the additional time was from shooting more deliberately knowing I only had 9 rounds in the gun. 

 

Not super scientific, but it seemed that doing SOMETHING while moving was a hair slower than just moving. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

it may be helfpul to test this theory, and see if you can reduce your time between shots by not reloading during a short movement. With a limited gun, my shot-to-shot time is the same when moving 2-3 yards. I haven't tested it with CO, but the lack of magwell (and probably lack of practice, lol) means I have to pay a little more attention, which I think may slow me down slightly. Looking at my video of last match seems to confirm that belief.

 

With that in mind, I'd say reloads are pretty much free in limited (or LO), but might not always be entirely free for people who don't practice enough in CO. YMMV.

 

For me the season is over, if I do head to the range again I might test this to put a number on it myself. Otherwise I'll forget by the time I go practice again lol. I'm G in SS and LTD so I'm at least okay at reloads. 

 

But my thinking..2-3 yards is only 2-3 steps. if I start shifting out of position and keep the gun up and shoot into position I can blend a 2-3 yard movement pretty well. Now if I do the same thing but add taking my eyes off the targets and down to the magwell to stick a load in what's going to need to be 1 step to be close on the time. Figure I'm moving out on the first step and gun needs to be up in the last step to be aiming so this needs to happen between those things. 

 

So even if I manage to do it in the same time I've made the task much more difficult to execute perfectly. That extra attention and risk would still be a cost in my eyes making the load not "free". I imagine on the clock I'm going to see some time added, probably under a second but it'll be there. 

 

. 

 

 

[CHA-LEE]

Doing a reload while moving makes the movement slower..... No..... If the movement is 2 - 3 steps there shouldn't be a time impact by performing a reload during that movement. I made a video about this exact topic a few years back. If your gun handling is negatively impacting your ability to move aggressively then you need to fix that problem. Having more rounds in the mag will NOT fix that fundamental problem.

 

 

[Muricanwerewolf]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

Doing a reload while moving makes the movement slower..... No..... If the movement is 2 - 3 steps there shouldn't be a time impact by performing a reload during that movement. I made a video about this exact topic a few years back. If your gun handling is negatively impacting your ability to move aggressively then you need to fix that problem. Having more rounds in the mag will NOT fix that fundamental problem.

 

 

What percentage of shooters do you think have no difference in running a stage with a reload vs without a reload?

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

But my thinking..2-3 yards is only 2-3 steps. if I start shifting out of position and keep the gun up and shoot into position I can blend a 2-3 yard movement pretty well. 

fwiw, my testing was done with targets straight downrange and lateral movement (pretty much identical to cha-lee's video above), so very little opportunity to blend. It definitely becomes fuzzier in a situation where you are moving in the same direction you are shooting, such as from the middle position to the last position in 'trigger freeze'. 

 

But in my experience, almost all stages have places where you can't shoot anything for a step or two, and in those stages reloads can be done essentially for free. I don't have any problem with doing 2 reloads in limited either if reduces the stress of going to 19-20 rds (or even 17-18 with steel). As Cha-lee teaches, reload quickly with the gun high and keep shooting.

Edited October 11, 2023 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

28 minutes ago, Muricanwerewolf said:

What percentage of shooters do you think have no difference in running a stage with a reload vs without a reload?

probably the same as the percentage of shooters who practice it.

Edited October 11, 2023 by motosapiens