Sight-in distance for red dots

[IVC]

The video in the second post is spot on with respect to several commonly misunderstood issues. 

• You need longer distance to get windage correctly, no matter what distance you intend to shoot. Your sight(s) should be mechanically centered over your barrel.
• You need to zero at a longer distance regardless of what distance you believe will be the "engagement distance." Pistols are zeroed at the first zero and the bullet is still rising, so zeroing at close distance will significantly affect your point blank range - you will have to use holdover at intermediate distances. 
• Use bench rest and eliminate as many inconsistencies as you can. You want a gun that is mechanically zeroed correctly. If you have to make adjustments for the style of shooting, make it with how you aim (until you correct it), not with the sighting system. The infamous "low left flinch" needs fixing, not "custom zero."
• My guns are zeroed at 25, but I understand that 15 works well too. There is no need to zero at closer ranges and play the game of intentionally making it low, you're also losing ability to set the windage accurately. 

Just go for the good distance, get a good windage and have a gun that shoots point blank at any distance you'll shoot (assuming you're staying within 50-ish to 75-ish yards).

[IVC]

I'll have to disagree with the few posters who talk about zeroing off-hand.

 

If you're a good shot, you can do it as a shortcut and nobody will be able to tell the difference. Like a very good carpenter making a precision cut while holding everything in his hands. But it will be at best as good as if you used a bench, and more likely than not it will introduce some personal bias. 

 

If your POI changes from what's at bench rest and you change your sights to compensate, you have a gun that is not sighted in. The bullet won't hit where the sights point, the bullet will hit where you moved the sights as you pulled the trigger. Even if you're very consistent in how you pull your gun off the target, you should still have a mechanically correctly sighted gun, then, if you want to keep the flinch (or much more subtle issues), you can always "aim high right." But few will agree that this is a good thing. 

[shred]

I do see a slight difference in off-hand zero and sandbagged zero at 50 yards.  I suspect it could be precursor flow in the comp or looking through a different part of my prescription glasses, but either way it's there.

 

I zero off a bench, then do the final tweak off-hand at 50.  I also usually dump the first hand-cycled shot (or use it as an aiming point on steel) because they can impact differently.  On a well-built gun it's very close, but on some it can be far enough out on a few-shot group to get you chasing your tail.

 

I tend to center the dot on the target at longer distances, so a bit of rise at 50 works out well on USPSA or IPSC targets with raised A-zones.

[Schutzenmeister]

I tend to view it as one is not sighting in the gun ... One is sighting in the system.  The shooter is Part of the system.

 

I do pretty much what @shred described above.

[CHA-LEE]

The closer the dot/sights are to the bore axis the less the sight in distance matters as far as vertical POI shift from close to far. For example, slide mounted iron sights will have way less vertical POI shift at varied distances vs a frame mounted Red Dot (Open Gun, PCC, etc.).

 

For Iron sight guns, I preferred a sight in distance of 10 Yards simply because the aiming spot on the target and the sights could both be seen at the same time with good enough clarity to keep the gun pointed at an exact spot on the target and hold it there while firing the shot. This would translate to a slightly high hit at 25+ yards but it was only a few inches at most. I can screw up the trigger press or steady hold on the aiming spot by that much at 25 yards shooting off-hand so to me, it was a wash. The thing that I would verify is horizontal POI shift at further distances 25/50 yards after I performed the 10 yard zero. Being off by a little bit horizontally at 10 yards can translate to 8 - 12 inches off at 50 yards. Being off by that much at distance translates to missing a popper at that distance consistently even though your hold on the target is perfect. Basically put, my horizontal zero is always validated and corrected for at 25/50 yards. If a perfect horizontal zero at 25/50 yards results in a slightly left or right POI shift at 10 yards, I don't care. At 10 yards or in I am usually shooting at such an aggressive pace that the slight horizontal POI shift will absolutely NOT matter.

 

For Red Dot guns I will always zero them at 25 yards when the dot is at the lowest brightness setting possible. I will also perform this zero from a supported "Benched" position. The important part with this is that I ensure that the dot is in the very center of the glass for every shot while zeroing. When shooting from a supported/benched position we are usually in an abnormal head/body position behind the gun vs shooting a normal standing two handed freestyle position. Keeping the dot in the very center of the glass eliminates as much Parallax as possible. When people see a POI shift between their Supported and Unsupported shooting position groups, a LOT of times its due to them shooting when the dot is NOT in the center of the glass from the supported position and they are inducing Parallax into the POI equation. Yes, people can induce hold, trigger press, or anticipation related POI shift issues when shooting unsupported. Those are all marksmanship issues which need to be fixed on their own anyway. My point is that every Red Dot has a certain amount of Parallax any time the dot is NOT in the center of the glass. Some Red Dot sights only have a couple of inches of Parallax at 25 yards others have 6 - 10 inches of Parallax. Test the Parallax POI offset of your sight to know what you are dealing with. 

 

In my vertical POI shift at different distances testing with extreme Red Dot to Bore Axis setups found that the overall Vertical shift from close to far is much less when the sight in range is at a further distance, such as 25 yards. For example, my Open gun has a 2.5 inch low POI at 5 yards when I sight it in at 25 yards. This is in contrast to a 6 - 8 inch high POI at 25 yards with a 10 yard zero. Competition Strategy wise, I don't want to be doing POI shift hold over "Guessing" on the clock. Especially not for the hardest shots in the match which are usually distance shots. If we are shooting a red dot at the proper pace the only time it should be a stationary "Dot" is on the harder distance shots as we need that level of gun settle and trigger press to achieve valid hits. Basically put, I want the hit to go exactly where the dot currently is on the distance targets without needing to even think about vertical POI shift. On all of the closer stuff we should be shooting at an aggressive enough pace that we are using a Streak of the the dot within the glass while breaking the shot so a slight vertical POI shift in that type of sight picture doesn't even matter because the sighting system is literally a streak of red, not a stationary dot.

 

I also perform the same horizontal POI verification at 50 yards with the Red Dot guns to ensure that it being slightly off at 25 isn't translating to missing the A-Zone at 50 yards.

 

The moral of the story is that you need to sight in your guns in a manner that is relative to the shooting sport you are playing. The distance and method you use needs to have a purpose. Not just blindly trusting what others tell you. Go test this stuff out yourself to prove its purpose.

Edited September 15, 2023 by CHA-LEE

[Racinready300ex]

I zero similar to you @CHA-LEE, but I hadn't thought about keeping the dot in the center of the window. I'm fairly sure I do that anyway, but I hadn't consider the implications of not doing it. I've also never tested the parallax in a red dot on my pistol I think I'll do that next time I'm at the range. I have a gun that needs the new dot zero'd anyway.

[CHA-LEE]

For the Occluded Dot people, make sure that you are sighting in your dot when its still Occluded. If you sight in the dot without it Occluded then add the occlusion back on afterwards, don't be surprised if your POI is biased 6 - 8 inches Left or Right from your original Zero POI. The POI shift depends on which eye is your dominant eye as well as which eye is observing the occlusion. For example a Right Eye Dominate Shooter with the Occluded dot presented in front of the Right eye, will likely have a Left biased POI. 

 

The real oddity about this scenario is that the Occluded Dot POI shift doesn't happen for everyone. In my training classes its been about a 50/50 mix of it happening or not. As always, test this out yourself to see if its a variable to consider.

[shred]

Maybe a prescription lens thing too.  I see it with them.

 

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, shred said:

Maybe a prescription lens thing too.  I see it with them.

 

Agreed. As a tri focal progressives wearer, I can get all sorts of goofiness in if I'm not extremely attuned to doing things exactly the same gun to gun

[dtuns]

19 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

For the Occluded Dot people, make sure that you are sighting in your dot when its still Occluded. If you sight in the dot without it Occluded then add the occlusion back on afterwards, don't be surprised if your POI is biased 6 - 8 inches Left or Right from your original Zero POI. The POI shift depends on which eye is your dominant eye as well as which eye is observing the occlusion. For example a Right Eye Dominate Shooter with the Occluded dot presented in front of the Right eye, will likely have a Left biased POI. 

 

The real oddity about this scenario is that the Occluded Dot POI shift doesn't happen for everyone. In my training classes its been about a 50/50 mix of it happening or not. As always, test this out yourself to see if its a variable to consider.

Yesterday I checked my zero with and with out the dot occluded no change for me.

[Runswithwood1]

I'm still pretty new to dots but thus far I've had pretty good luck with 10 yards

[rooster]

Excellent post CHA-LEE! My method is similar. I shoot for poa, poi at 10 yds, then for windage only at 15, 20, 25 etc. Then I come back to half the distance of the furthest target I expect to shoot at and adjust elevation only. For me as I shoot steel challenge that distance is 17.5 yards as the furthest target is 35. This I do benched then I check freestyle. If it’s off a lot you have a decision to make either readjust or correct your ability as you know the gun is on.

[barry]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/BCduUyYKfDPU934e9

 

Shooting tonight at 50 yds. Mention of paralex got me thinking. Fired 5 rds with dot centered in glass. Then 5 with dot  at top edge of glass,5 at bottom 5at left 5ar right. No shift of point of impact. Scope c-more serendipity 

[Runswithwood1]

I went with 10 yards, seems to be a good happy medium for uspsa stages

[stick]

Pistols and PCC's 20-25 yards.

 

I just saw a video where Max talks about a 75 yard zero for his PCC.

[IVC]

On 9/20/2023 at 7:26 PM, Runswithwood1 said:

I went with 10 yards, seems to be a good happy medium for uspsa stages

You don't sight-in at the distance you'll shot, you sight-in at the distance that will give you the maximum point blank range and where you'll have to make minimal adjustments, if at all, in your aiming point at any practical distance. 

[Muricanwerewolf]

On 9/15/2023 at 9:45 AM, IVC said:

I'll have to disagree with the few posters who talk about zeroing off-hand.

 

If you're a good shot, you can do it as a shortcut and nobody will be able to tell the difference. Like a very good carpenter making a precision cut while holding everything in his hands. But it will be at best as good as if you used a bench, and more likely than not it will introduce some personal bias. 

 

If your POI changes from what's at bench rest and you change your sights to compensate, you have a gun that is not sighted in. The bullet won't hit where the sights point, the bullet will hit where you moved the sights as you pulled the trigger. Even if you're very consistent in how you pull your gun off the target, you should still have a mechanically correctly sighted gun, then, if you want to keep the flinch (or much more subtle issues), you can always "aim high right." But few will agree that this is a good thing. 

 

 

I'm with you, I'd prefer that whatever gun I'm using is zeroed so if my technique is perfect it's dead on. If I'm doing something wrong I'd rather fix that than take a shortcut. Ironically I still zero offhand.

[CHA-LEE]

On 9/20/2023 at 8:26 PM, Runswithwood1 said:

I went with 10 yards, seems to be a good happy medium for uspsa stages

 

Until you need to make a 20+ yard head shot then you will be missing over the top of the target all day long

[RangerTrace]

I like 25.  Doesn't seem to hurt me up close since I forget to use the dot most of the time......

[oddjob]

I went with 25 yards.  We have evil stage designers that have partial targets at 25+ yards.  Its at least comforting to know I'm sighted in at that distance.....then I can choke and feel less bad.

[HOGRIDER]

On 8/23/2023 at 10:47 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I now zero at 25 from a bench. The gun needs to be able to print 5 shot groups into a 2" circle. 

At the advice of the "veteran" shooters in this thread, I decided to check/sight the LOC at 25 and 50 yards.  Shooting bench rested using a Caldwell plastic pistol rest........

 

Black dot is 1"; added the small white plate for a bit of contrast at 50yds.  Sun was bright today!

 

Couple of clicks in the windage, and I'm good to go!

 

Thanks to everyone that contributed!  

 

 

[Boomstick303]

I am much happier with the 25 yd zero.  More confidence when shooting out past 25 yds as rare as it may be.  

 

Nice groups.  Much better than mine. 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Boomstick303

[HOGRIDER]

Just now, Boomstick303 said:

I am much happier with the 25 yd zero.  More confidence when shooting out past 25 yds as rare as it may be.  

 

Agree!

The confidence of knowing where it'll hit at longer distances definitely helps!

 

[maur]

25 yards. With an open gun at least, every target I've encountered in USPSA has required no poa adjustment to hit an alpha, except for targets within 3 ish yards. I like having to only worry about super close targets, as opposed to that plus also having to adjust for 25yd+.