Limited Optics

[tomjerry1]

  If I didn't believe that these provisional changes are being introduced to support manufactures and the sponsored side of the house, I'd almost agree with them. But when the ink is barely dry on the announcement, there are new accessories being introduced by the manufacturers to support these new provisional divisions, could be coincidence? 

  Divisions were setup to maintain a type of firearm to control improvement and modifications to the firearm, to bring out the shooter's ability. As the rules are changed, the race is on to see how far these new rules can be stretched, and new markets are created to satisfy this erg.  

  I'm not afraid of change but change for the sake of change is not always good. Pretty soon, there may be to many divisions, and not enough people in each, for the division to be recognized. 

[ddc]

3 hours ago, RJH said:

 

I noticed that comp part too. 

 

Other than that I think he was pretty much correct, though. Also I figure as a high end shooter, former USPSA president, and now in the gun industry, he would unique perspective that might be worth considering

 

 

 

His "unique perspective" is that his company makes a gun that he wishes was legal but it isn't.

The rest of us are in no such position. So definitely unique for sure.

 

So... isn't he is just like everybody else who wants a place for their special toy that doesn't fit into the current rule set?

 

[RJH]

6 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

His "unique perspective" is that his company makes a gun that he wishes was legal but it isn't.

The rest of us are in no such position. So definitely unique for sure.

 

So... isn't he is just like everybody else who wants a place for their special toy that doesn't fit into the current rule set?

 

 

Possibly. But he also sees market trends probably more clearly than the rest of us because of his position. 

 

As an example, this is just on the power factor aspect of this whole debate, I looked up ammo sales and 9 mm was obviously number one in handgun sales. What was interesting was that 45 was number two. 40 was number three and apparently by a large enough margin that it didn't even get its own wedge in the pie lol. Even as a long time limited shooter that likes major ammo, it would seem silly to build a new division based on an unpopular overall caliber. It would make more sense by the numbers to base it on 45 than 40 if you had to have major caliber, but nobody wants to do that. So making a new division based on minor ammo would help to ensure its success, for multiple reasons.  But don't think I'm suggesting taking major out of limited, it's an established division, not a new one.

 

I'm sure he wants to sell guns as well, but wanting to sell guns and doing what's best for the sport are not mutually exclusive. And sig has one of the top two guns in carry-ops already, so it's not like they're really hurting for sales. And they have that military contract. But maybe they're needing some money to cover those lawsuits LOL

[YVK]

Commercial ammo sales are influenced by factors that may have little relevance to the sport. Majority of that 9 mm ammo is bought by people who will barely shoot at all, let alone participate in any sports. To me basing the new division on commercially less popular ammo is less silly than creating a division that is effectively identical to an existing one. 

[RJH]

18 minutes ago, YVK said:

Commercial ammo sales are influenced by factors that may have little relevance to the sport. Majority of that 9 mm ammo is bought by people who will barely shoot at all, let alone participate in any sports. To me basing the new division on commercially less popular ammo is less silly than creating a division that is effectively identical to an existing one. 

 

I tend to agree on that last part and would prefer to just have Sao guns in carryops (Phil S and I agree here), but I just don't think that will happen. So I figure LO is what we will end up with.

[SufferInSilence]

13 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Juat a quick browse through ammo company websites and the only two range/training loads that I could quickly find that make his idea of PF are American Eagle 147 and Speer Lawman 147.

 

140+ PF is a non-starter.  130 - 135 is realistic.

 

 

Yeah agreed.  140 would have “everyone” reloading then.   

- just to be clear, no one is officially mentioning a PF change.  I was just referring to the GOAT’s suggestions which realistically should be considered, just not at 140pf.  
 

Not trying to steer the thread off topic so let’s let it die here.  
 

Limited Optics… SAO in CO…

Either way let’s let them 2011 cyclops gunzzz play!!!  

[echotango]

Those wanting SA to be allowed in CO, are you also ok with it in Production? 

Edited January 2, 2023 by echotango

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, echotango said:

Those wanting SA to be allowed in CO, are you also ok with it in Production? 

 

I'm one of those guys, while I would gladly take limited optics, I think the more prudent thing to do would just be to allow Sao guns in carry-ops 

 

But on to your question, I have for a long time said that production, single stack, and L10 should all be rolled together and be 10 rounds minor eight rounds major. For years back when single stack and production were shot at Major matches with a number of competitors, the scores were pretty much interchangeable. Generally production guys were beating single stack guys, but production usually had overall better talent. But in the long run the guns tend to score basically identical hit factors when shot by the same person. In fact, the similarity in scores between single stack and production is one of the reasons I think putting Sao guns in carryops would be a non-issue

Edited January 2, 2023 by RJH

[MHicks]

As far as SS, L10 and Production I would love it if SS was popular enough to stand on it's  own. But we know where those divisions stand currently. Because of the lack of participation I'd be willing to see some form of combining those divisions.

Being just in the process of setting up for CO, I don't know if a seperate LO or allowing SAO guns in CO would be better. But either way it makes it easier for me to also have a backup gun from what I already own.

 

 

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

I tend to agree on that last part and would prefer to just have Sao guns in carryops (Phil S and I agree here), but I just don't think that will happen. So I figure LO is what we will end up with.

I suspect LO is simply a dry test run for allowing SAO and magwells in CO and the end result will be a combination of the two divisions.  I just wonder if it will be called LO or SO.  Having both is silly, unless major is allowed in LO.  Apparently, the creation of a new division is quicker than changing an existing one, so I bet LO is what we get and CO ceases to exist.  I'm looking forward to shooting some LO classifiers.  

 

On a side note, I don't understand why people who don't shoot Limited want to eliminate major and kill the division.  Why do they care?

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

I suspect LO is simply a dry test run for allowing SAO and magwells in CO and the end result will be a combination of the two divisions.  I just wonder if it will be called LO or SO.  Having both is silly, unless major is allowed in LO.  Apparently, the creation of a new division is quicker than changing an existing one, so I bet LO is what we get and CO ceases to exist.  I'm looking forward to shooting some LO classifiers.  

 

On a side note, I don't understand why people who don't shoot Limited want to eliminate major and kill the division.  Why do they care?

 

I think people that want to eliminate major in limited think it might help the division. I don't know if that's correct or not, but I feel it might be. I shot limited major for a long time and used to be dead set against changing it to minor only, but at this point I am beginning to question that and think that it possibly could help things.

 

I will continue to shoot limited occasionally and I'll shoot major if it's major, or minor if it's minor

 

 

[GrumpyOne]

The new division will be named LOCO.

[deerslayer]

1 minute ago, GrumpyOne said:

The new division will be named LOCO.

 

  

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

The new division will be named LOCO.

 

I like it

[Racinready300ex]

 

7 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

The new division will be named LOCO.

 

This sounds like a division I want to be good at. 

[cheers623]

57 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

The new division will be named LOCO.

That is literally one of the funniest/wittiest things I’ve seen on this forum in years!!!! @GrumpyOne…genius!!!!

[Patrick Scott]

1 hour ago, GrumpyOne said:

The new division will be named LOCO.

Im down for this. 

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, MHicks said:

As far as SS, L10 and Production I would love it if SS was popular enough to stand on it's  own. But we know where those divisions stand currently. Because of the lack of participation I'd be willing to see some form of combining those divisions.

i wonder if it would be feasible to word the rules to allow combining similar divisions at smaller matches, so as to get enough participants to be recognized. i don’t see any reason to combine ss and prod at nationals, but it might make more sense at a local or even a section match where there might only be a handful in each division.  maybe if there are fewer than 10 shooters (or 5, or 7, or wutever), allow the md to combine with a reasonably similar division.

[Southpaw]

Was going to post this earlier, but figured no one would agree, so glad to see I'm not alone .  Although I'm fine with letting Limited die a slower death than Phil.

 

-Open:  no change

-Limited:  no change

-Limited  Minor

-Limited Optics:  minor only, slide mounted optics only, as proposed by BOD

-Limited 8/10:  8 major, 10 minor capacity.  Would combined L10, SS, and Production.  No magwells for double stack guns.

-PCC

 

Done, then we can stop changing rules all the time.

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, Southpaw said:

Was going to post this earlier, but figured no one would agree, so glad to see I'm not alone .  Although I'm fine with letting Limited die a slower death than Phil.

 

-Open:  no change

-Limited:  no change

-Limited  Minor

-Limited Optics:  minor only, slide mounted optics only, as proposed by BOD

-Limited 8/10:  8 major, 10 minor capacity.  Would combined L10, SS, and Production.  No magwells for double stack guns.

-PCC

 

Done, then we can stop changing rules all the time.

 

I'm game,

 

But I wonder if Limited_Minor kills regular limited after a few years or not. I'm to the point I don't really care, I just think it might happen. Limited is suffering already, and isn't like half the participation minor already? I could also see some CO shooters dump the optic to go to L-minor. Also not really a bad thing. 

[Patrick Scott]

If they are hell bent on making this division separate from CO I just wish they would drop the "Limited" name from the division. Call it Tac Optics or Sport Optics, Action Optics or anything else.  IMO putting "Limited" in the name ties it too much into the current Limited division. 

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i wonder if it would be feasible to word the rules to allow combining similar divisions at smaller matches, so as to get enough participants to be recognized. i don’t see any reason to combine ss and prod at nationals, but it might make more sense at a local or even a section match where there might only be a handful in each division.  maybe if there are fewer than 10 shooters (or 5, or 7, or wutever), allow the md to combine with a reasonably similar division.

 

I wonder if you could already do this kinda.

 

Have a cut off date, at which point all the low cap divisions without enough shooters get rolled into L10 and their original division gets removed from the match and they're notified via email of the change. At which point they can go to PS and switch divisions, do nothing or withdraw from the match.  If somehow it happened to a hi-cap division do that same thing but move them to open. 

 

Even though nothing really changed about your match, this would still probably piss people off. 

[motosapiens]

15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Limited is suffering already, and isn't like half the participation minor already? 

only noobs (and nils, because of contractual requirements) are shooting minor.

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I wonder if you could already do this kinda.

 

Have a cut off date, at which point all the low cap divisions without enough shooters get rolled into L10 and their original division gets removed from the match and they're notified via email of the change. At which point they can go to PS and switch divisions, do nothing or withdraw from the match.  If somehow it happened to a hi-cap division do that same thing but move them to open. 

 

Even though nothing really changed about your match, this would still probably piss people off. 

you make good points. the problem is that l10 allows 10 round major, which is a pretty significant advantage over ss or prod.

[rowdyb]

Optics major, optics minor.

Irons major, irons minor. 

 

4 divisions and easy to sort them and super inclusive. That's how I'd do it.

Pretty simple flow chart to get you into a division. 

Do you have optic or iron sights? Next, is your ammo major or minor? Ok then, no more questions to ask.