USPSA - How about adding .22lr (RFPI, RFPO)

[Fishbreath]

2 hours ago, ekaiser said:

Turn single stack into classic division and let revolvers play in there. 

 

Awful idea. The whole point of divisions is pitting like against like, and revolver is nearly as unlike the semi-auto divisions as PCC is. It makes way more sense to roll Production and Single Stack together than it does to roll Revolver and Single Stack together. I wrote at length about the topic a few months ago.

 

More to the point, I don't think there's a compelling reason to remove any division from the sport except L10, which is fairly treated as a joke and/or a warmup Nationals. The other six handgun divisions cover almost every branch of the taxonomy of handguns except maybe double-stack 9mm 1911s, coarsely enough so we don't have the Steel Challenge Problem, but finely enough so that there are very few times when the matchup between two competitors in the same division is facially absurd, in terms of equipment.

 

There are a few things I'd change (maybe Production 15, maybe slowly roll back some of the excesses in permissible CO/Prod modifications), but honestly, the USPSA division system as it stands now is fair without being overwhelming, and I don't understand the calls to munge together divisions which are perfectly satisfactory as they are now. If I were king, I'd neither add nor remove any divisions beyond L10.

 

Speaking broadly, most arguments for removing unpopular divisions fail to explain who or what is being harmed by unpopular divisions, or lay out a problem that is fixed by killing them off.

[Sinister4]

Yes  the L10 can go away, and IMHO  let Production be PRODUCTION,  buy gun, go shoot it, zero mods, if it comes with 17 round mag good for you,  long as they make a lot of them (ie 10,000 or so)  its a production gun maybe limit guns to MSRP of 1000.00 max IDK   none of this factory special "we made 500" and they cost  1900.00+ gun

[Racinready300ex]

37 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Awful idea. The whole point of divisions is pitting like against like, and revolver is nearly as unlike the semi-auto divisions as PCC is. It makes way more sense to roll Production and Single Stack together than it does to roll Revolver and Single Stack together. I wrote at length about the topic a few months ago.

 

More to the point, I don't think there's a compelling reason to remove any division from the sport except L10, which is fairly treated as a joke and/or a warmup Nationals. The other six handgun divisions cover almost every branch of the taxonomy of handguns except maybe double-stack 9mm 1911s, coarsely enough so we don't have the Steel Challenge Problem, but finely enough so that there are very few times when the matchup between two competitors in the same division is facially absurd, in terms of equipment.

 

There are a few things I'd change (maybe Production 15, maybe slowly roll back some of the excesses in permissible CO/Prod modifications), but honestly, the USPSA division system as it stands now is fair without being overwhelming, and I don't understand the calls to munge together divisions which are perfectly satisfactory as they are now. If I were king, I'd neither add nor remove any divisions beyond L10.

 

Speaking broadly, most arguments for removing unpopular divisions fail to explain who or what is being harmed by unpopular divisions, or lay out a problem that is fixed by killing them off.

 

 

I think the reason people want to merge them is we see these slowly dying divisions that probably need to go, and we want to save them. Revolver for example, all the majors I've shot this year put together had a combined total of 16 revolver shooters. Then add the continued talk of adding new divisions, like Rimfire this time. We wouldn't be the first sport to add so many divisions and categories that everyone becomes a champion at something and the whole thing becomes watered down and irrelevant. 

 

I can't see uspsa ever adding restrictions to the existing divisions. To many people will be upset. That ship has sailed, but we need to be more careful going forward with what we add.

[Racinready300ex]

When was the last time there was a 7 page thread about getting better at shooting?

 

But it seems like every few weeks there is a new thread about adding a division. I think the people who want to get good may have moved to another page.

[twodownzero]

On 9/14/2021 at 10:43 AM, Racinready300ex said:

I think we should add to the bylaws a division ceiling. Kind of like how the Gov. has a debt ceiling only we'll stick to it. Want to add a new division you need to kill a existing division. All we do is talk about new divisions, vary little talk about shooting or getting better.

 

Yet we still have L-10?  That division has outlived its purpose for at least 16 years since the AWB ended.

[Fishbreath]

35 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

think the reason people want to merge them is we see these slowly dying divisions that probably need to go, and we want to save them. Revolver for example, all the majors I've shot this year put together had a combined total of 16 revolver shooters.

 

How does merging divisions save them? Single Stack + Revolver = Classic is a recipe to ensure that nobody will ever shoot a revolver seriously in USPSA again, and I think that would be a loss, given that revolvers are half of the pistol family tree. (Although, I grant you, the less popular half these days.) Even Single Stack + Production = Locap Semi kind of hoses minor/factory guns if you do the 8Maj/10min split. I think merging divisions is very nearly as bad as re-restricting existing ones, because if you squint, that's kind of what you're doing.

 

It depends on the major. There were 15 revolvers at some state match or another in the midwest this year. I'm only shooting two L2s this year, and they have 12 revolver entries between them. Still a tiny pond, but we are out there.

 

40 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Then add the continued talk of adding new divisions, like Rimfire this time. We wouldn't be the first sport to add so many divisions and categories that everyone becomes a champion at something and the whole thing becomes watered down and irrelevant. 

 

There is a risk of this, but I don't think there's a serious risk of it with the six handgun divisions we have now. Like I said, I'm advocating for icing L10 but keeping everything else as is—particularly in the wake of sweeping rules changes over the last few years.

 

Taking home an Open championship hits different than a Revolver or Single Stack trophy, but I don't consider that a problem. The only people who really care about nationals results are people who are involved in the sport, and by and large, they already know the division-to-division handicaps.

 

45 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

When was the last time there was a 7 page thread about getting better at shooting?

 

Mostly they're in the training diaries section, I think.

 

I try to be more of a doer than a talker, myself, but Revolver division is far and away the most fun I've had in USPSA, and I can't help but come to its defense. The near-requirement for perfect marksmanship at speed, the extra dexterity it takes to pull off reloads, and the challenge of double-action shooting all make it a compelling game, in my book, and I'd be deeply disillusioned if the sport decided that it isn't a recognized way to play anymore.

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

 

Some notes, we have 8 divisions not 6. 

 

I personally don't want to merge anything. It be better to just kill them and make new ones if we want something different. Shoe horning them together probably isn't a great recipe. Really, I think I'm fine with leaving the divisions we have. But if we're going to keep talking about adding them, we need to have some criteria to remove them too. Take this tread, add Rimfire. We do that and we may as well jump to all the SC divisions, instantly moving us from 8 to 13 divisions. And the day after we do that someone will start another SAO-CO thread, or a Lim-Minor thread. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Sinister4 said:

Yes  the L10 can go away, and IMHO  let Production be PRODUCTION,  buy gun, go shoot it, zero mods, if it comes with 17 round mag good for you,  long as they make a lot of them (ie 10,000 or so)  its a production gun maybe limit guns to MSRP of 1000.00 max IDK   none of this factory special "we made 500" and they cost  1900.00+ gun

that would be wonderful for all 4 people that want to shoot unmodded guns. it is a pretty obvious fact that 99% of shooters like to tinker with their guns and make them fit their personal preferences better.

[MikeBurgess]

as long as we are talking divisions, how about this idea

 

For a division to have a national championship match, it must be contested at a majority of the section Area the previous year (honestly I would prefer nationals to be after all the Area matches so you could use that year to qualify) Contested means it met all the rule book requirements for recognition (I think these should be higher for L3 matches than the 10 currently required) 

 

For a division to be contested at an area match lets say 25% of the matches in that area must meet the minimum requirements for division recognition. 

 

So keep all the divisions at L1 matches, those that are popular will get enough turnout to be included in an area match, if enough area matches have enough participation then that division gets a Nationals if not too bad.

 

Some ask what problem this would fix? My $.02 is that awarding a (insert dead division of your choice here ) division National Championship diminishes the value of the popular division National Championships, sorry to say but being L10 or Revo or SS National Champion is not the same as Open Limited CO PCC, even Production (but I think its will be joining the other dead division shortly).  

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by MikeBurgess

[Sinister4]

46 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

that would be wonderful for all 4 people that want to shoot unmodded guns. it is a pretty obvious fact that 99% of shooters like to tinker with their guns and make them fit their personal preferences better.

in the same vein then why not allow anything goes, have one class.  if in fact 99% want to mod there guns ?   Where do you draw the line on mods ?  All sports in fact must have a beginner/cost effective class to start in and grow, maybe some small mods are the answer but as in all sports it takes a very strong set of rules to keep a beginner/easy/low cost class to stay that way.   The current handicap system in golf, trap, skeet and bracket racing (while I hate it) are strokes of genius to grow the sports and bring in many new players.  I'll shoot or race any set of rules but many will not. 

Edited September 15, 2021 by Sinister4

[Racinready300ex]

33 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

as long as we are talking divisions, how about this idea

 

For a division to have a national championship match, it must be contested at a majority of the section Area the previous year (honestly I would prefer nationals to be after all the Area matches so you could use that year to qualify) Contested means it met all the rule book requirements for recognition (I think these should be higher for L3 matches than the 10 currently required) 

 

For a division to be contested at an area match lets say 25% of the matches in that area must meet the minimum requirements for division recognition. 

 

So keep all the divisions at L1 matches, those that are popular will get enough turnout to be included in an area match, if enough area matches have enough participation then that division gets a Nationals if not too bad.

 

Some ask what problem this would fix? My $.02 is that awarding a (insert dead division of your choice here ) division National Championship diminishes the value of the popular division National Championships, sorry to say but being L10 or Revo or SS National Champion is not the same as Open Limited CO PCC, even Production (but I think its will be joining the other dead division shortly).  

 

 

 

 

That's a interesting concept. I think I like that idea.  

 

And I agree with your point about national champions. IDPA DM means vary little, because they had 2 nationals a year for every division. Some guys got bumped from EX to DM for winning a division against basically no one. It made the whole system a joke. 

 

[motosapiens]

12 minutes ago, Sinister4 said:

in the same vein then why not allow anything goes, have one class.  if in fact 99% want to mod there guns ?   Where do you draw the line on mods ?  All sports in fact must have a beginner/cost effective class to start in and grow, maybe some small mods are the answer but as in all sports it takes a very strong set of rules to keep a beginner/easy/low cost class to stay that way.  

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the current system. beginners who are non-competitive aren't non-competitive because they didn't spend enough on their gun. SS, prod and CO at least allow you to be competitive at any level for under a grand (before optic).

[Sinister4]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the current system. beginners who are non-competitive aren't non-competitive because they didn't spend enough on their gun. SS, prod and CO at least allow you to be competitive at any level for under a grand (before optic).

 Agreed on that for sure

[Fishbreath]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Some notes, we have 8 divisions not 6. 

 

We have six serious handgun divisions. I'm ignoring L10 because everyone ignores L10, and ignoring PCC because the conversation about handgun divisions depends on the technical nature of the handguns people are shooting.

 

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

My $.02 is that awarding a (insert dead division of your choice here ) division National Championship diminishes the value of the popular division National Championships, sorry to say but being L10 or Revo or SS National Champion is not the same as Open Limited CO PCC

 

So, I agree with your broader point: requiring a certain amount of popularity for a division to get an official standalone Nationals is perfectly reasonable. (Revolver in particular isn't hurting for non-USPSA championship matches, even if ICORE isn't widespread at the local level, and I'm sure we'd see a match that ends up being the unofficial USPSA revolver championship if it didn't have a proper nationals.)

 

That said: how exactly does awarding, say, an L10 championship diminish the value of a Limited title? Everyone who cares knows that the Limited title is worth more. Sure, the average rando on the street sees 'National Champion' and gives them equal weight, but the average rando on the street has no idea that USPSA exists, so we probably shouldn't be making decisions based on his opinion anyway.

[outerlimits]

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

So, I agree with your broader point: requiring a certain amount of popularity for a division to get an official standalone Nationals is perfectly reasonable.

 

 

and who knows...maybe the new prez will push to go back to having a 3gun nationals, not ppc/rifle games.

[ima45dv8]

45 minutes ago, outerlimits said:

and who knows...maybe the new prez will push to go back to having a 3gun nationals, not ppc/rifle games.

And maybe the new one will push to go back to sponsoring The Ladies instead of The Juniors.

Worst budget and strength move USPSA could have made... 

 

Kids don't vote, and they are ALL sponsored shooters. Usually by Mom and Dad. 

(Bless their hearts)

Moms on the other hand do participate in our legal process, and control most of the money in our economy {Yes they do!}. Most household budgets are run by Mom, and she decides where discretionary dollars are spent. 

 

If she's involved and decides that the money for the weekend out with kids should be spent at a match, what else do you think will happen? She'll bring the kids along to the match because now a babysitter isn't in the budget (not after all that match gear). And all of the folks wanting Juniors at a match just got what they wanted. Not by spending money of promoting them, but by supporting their Moms. And we get their strong support. 

 

That math looks pretty easy to me. 

[Nathanb]

Lots of big ideas.  Looks like there are quite a few match directors or future directors here.  Oh wait. 

[Racinready300ex]

14 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

We have six serious handgun divisions. I'm ignoring L10 because everyone ignores L10, and ignoring PCC because the conversation about handgun divisions depends on the technical nature of the handguns people are shooting.

 

 

That's just silly. 

 

I guess we should just add 5 new rimfire divisions and that L-minor and SAO-CO while we're at it. Those that don't like them can just pretend they don't exist. Problem solved. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

Lots of big ideas.  Looks like there are quite a few match directors or future directors here.  Oh wait. 

 

Typical response in our sport. Members should have no say in the direction of the org. 

[Fishbreath]

48 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

That's just silly. 

 

Call it what you like. I'm talking about whether the divisions we have adequately cover the handguns people actually bring to matches, and L10 and PCC are irrelevant in that conversation.

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Call it what you like. I'm talking about whether the divisions we have adequately cover the handguns people actually bring to matches, and L10 and PCC are irrelevant in that conversation.

 

So is revolver, single stack and more and more production.

 

[Sinister4]

11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So is revolver, single stack and more and more production.

 

as a "new to this sport" shooter I figured production was a good start, well after 4 matches I moved to limited. LMAO did not like being the only guy reloading 3-4 times a stage

[Racinready300ex]

14 minutes ago, Sinister4 said:

as a "new to this sport" shooter I figured production was a good start, well after 4 matches I moved to limited. LMAO did not like being the only guy reloading 3-4 times a stage

 

I think you nailed it. Right now everything low cap is dying and that's why. Why go to a match a be the lone prod guy when you can just fill you mags up and shoot limited and at least compete on a somewhat level field. 

 

There was a time Production was huge, those days are gone. I wish I shot production back when it was still cool. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Racinready300ex

[Fishbreath]

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

So is revolver, single stack and more and more production.

 

Those are lightly attended, but not irrelevant in coverage of the handgun family tree.

 

The point of a division system is not to reflect what's popular, it's to group similar guns together for competitive equity. If you get rid of Production, you're sticking out-of-the-box guns in Limited against custom 2011s, which feels futile on the losing side and pointless on the winning side. If you get rid of Revolver, you're putting wheelguns in with semi-autos, which has the same problem. It doesn't matter that not many people shoot those things.

 

If you get rid of L10, on the other hand, you're not breaking competitive equity in any way. Matches in ban states already operate under local laws. Anyone shooting L10 in a non-ban state will just go back to loading mags all the way.

[Bagellord]

My opinion: no more equipment rule changes for the next 3 years. I'd love to extend that to all rule changes, but there are some things that could be good changes (popper calibration, in the opinion of some, for example).

 

Revolver needs to stay, if we are going to continue to have revolvers in the sport. Revolvers are simply too different from any other gun in the sport to be combined with any other division.

 

L10/SS - if we were going to get rid of one, get rid of single stack and fold it into L10. That way the largest number of guns are covered. IMO L10 only exists to make sure that Low Cap nationals fills up (these days).