USPSA - How about adding .22lr (RFPI, RFPO)

[Racinready300ex]

22 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Those are lightly attended, but not irrelevant in coverage of the handgun family tree.

 

The point of a division system is not to reflect what's popular, it's to group similar guns together for competitive equity. If you get rid of Production, you're sticking out-of-the-box guns in Limited against custom 2011s, which feels futile on the losing side and pointless on the winning side. If you get rid of Revolver, you're putting wheelguns in with semi-autos, which has the same problem. It doesn't matter that not many people shoot those things.

 

If you get rid of L10, on the other hand, you're not breaking competitive equity in any way. Matches in ban states already operate under local laws. Anyone shooting L10 in a non-ban state will just go back to loading mags all the way.

 

I agree the point is to have a place where similar equipment is used, but if no one shoots with that equipment there is zero need to have a division for it. I don't care about family tree's of guns or any of that. If people don't use it we don't need to support it. 

 

It may be worth noting currently we stick out of the box production guns, like a stock glock. In the same division as a Shadow 2 with Cajun internals, a lightened slide, brass grips, brass frame weight, thumb rests, oversized mag releases and what ever else is legal now days. There is no division where your average joes box stock gun is a great choice. And most likely there never will be. 

 

L10 and SS are basically the same gun. I know a couple guys that go back and froth with their skinny guns. And in the results SS and Prod are pretty even too. These three divisions are separated because the gear is slightly different. But when it comes to shooting the match those differences matter way less than people think. The biggest thing is the major scoring, not the gear.

 

But it makes complete sense to have a special division for the one wheel gun guy to shoot in a division by himself. 

[Fishbreath]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

But it makes complete sense to have a special division for the one wheel gun guy to shoot in a division by himself. 

 

Yes, because

  

29 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

Revolvers are simply too different from any other gun in the sport to be combined with any other division.

 

The idea behind 'If no one shoots with that equipment there is zero need to have a division for it', with the hyperbole removed, is equivalent to saying that what's popular is what deserves rules recognition, which is exactly what led to the dramatic shifts in gear rules over the last few years. I don't think there's broad consensus that the changes are good or bad, but I do think there's a fairly widely-held opinion that they happened too quickly or with insufficient member input.

[MikeBurgess]

16 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

We have six serious handgun divisions. I'm ignoring L10 because everyone ignores L10, and ignoring PCC because the conversation about handgun divisions depends on the technical nature of the handguns people are shooting.

 

 

So, I agree with your broader point: requiring a certain amount of popularity for a division to get an official standalone Nationals is perfectly reasonable. (Revolver in particular isn't hurting for non-USPSA championship matches, even if ICORE isn't widespread at the local level, and I'm sure we'd see a match that ends up being the unofficial USPSA revolver championship if it didn't have a proper nationals.)

 

That said: how exactly does awarding, say, an L10 championship diminish the value of a Limited title? Everyone who cares knows that the Limited title is worth more. Sure, the average rando on the street sees 'National Champion' and gives them equal weight, but the average rando on the street has no idea that USPSA exists, so we probably shouldn't be making decisions based on his opinion anyway.

 

 

Just to be clear, I don't think we should have stand alone matches for every division, I would much prefer 1 championship where all the divisions that make the cut compete on the same stages together. 

 

I think putting in place the ground work to give rise to Division specialty matches that then become defacto championships is a good thing. If we look back to the Single Stack Classic it was the SS championship before SS was a thing. So in my dream future we have a nationals that contests 4 or 5 divisions and another 3 or 4 matches that grow to become the matches that matter for divisions that don't make the cut for nationals. 

 

[Fishbreath]

1 minute ago, MikeBurgess said:

Just to be clear, I don't think we should have stand alone matches for every division, I would much prefer 1 championship where all the divisions that make the cut compete on the same stages together. 

 

Understood—I was using 'standalone' and 'official' to mean the same thing, but I see where you're coming from. I think there might be some value to two matches: I'd go irons and dots rather than hicap/locap, because the latter distinction is increasingly populated/empty. I think you could push the shot difficulty a bit further for a CO/Open/PCC match in a way that might not feel fair if the stages have to support Limited etc. as well.

 

Ben Berry suggested something similar in a recent blog post: fewer nationals matches with stricter slot caps and eligibility requirements. That plus division activity requirements would certainly make for high-prestige nationals.

[Sinister4]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think you nailed it. Right now everything low cap is dying and that's why. Why go to a match a be the lone prod guy when you can just fill you mags up and shoot limited and at least compete on a somewhat level field. 

 

There was a time Production was huge, those days are gone. I wish I shot production back when it was still cool. 

 I would have been better off shooting my old 6 shot full custom S&W revolver  than production class LMAO  at least no one would suspect me to load speedloaders quick and I could shoot all slow alphas

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Sinister4 said:

 I would have been better off shooting my old 6 shot full custom S&W revolver  than production class LMAO  at least no one would suspect me to load speedloaders quick and I could shoot all slow alphas

 

My first match was with a 686 with three speed loaders and some loose rounds in my pocket. 

[SGT_Schultz]

No one who talks of discarding divisions can ever show objective evidence of how doing that will benefit the organization or the shooters who have their division taken away.  It's always "trust me" or the "reduction in admin burden" which is nonsense since match administration is paperless.

 

They also never advocate eliminating their own division.  Always someone else's.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

18 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

No one who talks of discarding divisions can ever show objective evidence of how doing that will benefit the organization or the shooters who have their division taken away.  It's always "trust me" or the "reduction in admin burden" which is nonsense since match administration is paperless.

 

They also never advocate eliminating their own division.  Always someone else's.

 

 

I think my proposal makes for a nice middle ground, all divisions are still there but as the levels go up then participation needs to be there to justify someone being champion. 

 

Remember ALL handguns that are legal in any other division are legal in OPEN so nobody is denied the right to shoot their chosen gun in a match as long as Open is a thing, to those that say shooting a 625 revo against all 2011s is not competitive, I say so what, shooting it against nobody in revo is equally not competing. 

 

[Fishbreath]

52 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I say so what, shooting it against nobody in revo is equally not competing. 

 

Except when there are other people around and it is, or if you enjoy chasing classification, or if you know the handicap against Production or Single Stack...

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, SGT_Schultz said:

No one who talks of discarding divisions can ever show objective evidence of how doing that will benefit the organization or the shooters who have their division taken away.  It's always "trust me" or the "reduction in admin burden" which is nonsense since match administration is paperless.

 

They also never advocate eliminating their own division.  Always someone else's.

 

 

 

I'll advocate eliminating SS even though I like the division and shoot it. It was the first division I made GM in. But really SS probably isn't ready to die yet. I started in Revo, it was fun I still have the gun. But the division is dead so I stopped shooting it. We should probably just put it out of it's misery already. 

 

The problem I have with adding divisions is we end up with more and more champions. And the more winners you have the less winning matters. It becomes participation trophies, and IMO that should not just matter to the guys who can win. If we want this to sport to have legitimacy we should be concerned about the competition side of it. And more and more divisions take away from the competition aspect of what we do. 

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Racinready300ex

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Except when there are other people around and it is, or if you enjoy chasing classification, or if you know the handicap against Production or Single Stack...

 

If you where shooting in Production you'd more easily see the handicap. Comparing yourself in the overall isn't really accurate, so I assume you move yourself into production using the competitor app to see where you stack up head to head right? If you're not, you're comparing apples to oranges anyway.

 

You can chase a classification with any gun in any division, you may not make it as far but the chase can still be there.

 

Other people? if there were other people this wouldn't be a issue. 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

 

Except when there are other people around and it is, or if you enjoy chasing classification, or if you know the handicap against Production or Single Stack...

at a L1 where you can chase classification no problems with me or my plan. 

L3 or Nationals matches and that's where my plan would kick in, you are not chasing classification and at that point if you want to shoot your Revo or SS or L10 gun have fun in Open nothing stopping you and you can still look at the overall results and see where you compare exactly like you say you do with SS and Prod now  

 

And just to make sure nobody misinterprets my intentions I made GM in Revo a couple years ago and have zero problem with it not being a real thing at larger matches, I have signed up for Revo at several L2/3 only to change to something else at the last minute because Revo did not have enough entry's for recognition and or enough competition to be an actual contest. 

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

to those that say shooting a 625 revo against all 2011s is not competitive, I say so what, shooting it against nobody in revo is equally not competing. 

 

 

Except that the voice of those who don't compete in the division being eliminated doesn't count as much as the voice of those whose division is being eliminated.

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

And the more winners you have the less winning matters. It becomes participation trophies

 

Not sure how that works.  Why does anyone in one division care about how many other division winners there are?  How does a Revo division win against 5 others affect or diminish a CO win against 50 others?

 

That's what no one can explain because it's all personal biases with no rational thought.

[MikeBurgess]

Just now, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Except that the voice of those who don't compete in the division being eliminated doesn't count as much as the voice of those whose division is being eliminated.

I have competed at a pretty high level in Revo the smallest division and the one most likely to take a hit in any division reorganization scheme  and I'm fine with that

[SGT_Schultz]

4 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I have competed at a pretty high level in Revo the smallest division and the one most likely to take a hit in any division reorganization scheme  and I'm fine with that

 

But you don't compete in it any more, do you?

 

Would you have been fine with s#!tcanning revo when you were playing it at a  high level?

 

And even if the answer back then was yes, how does that square with those who did not want to lose their sport?

 

Let's just forget for a minute you and I and what we want or don't want.  Where is the evidence that the sport wins more than it loses?

Edited September 16, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[outerlimits]

4 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

But you don't compete in it any more, do you?

 

Would you have been fine with s#!tcanning revo when you were playing it at a  high level?

 

And even if the answer back then was yes, how does that square with those who did not want to lose their sport?

i see mike shoot every gun imaginable, and very well i might add.

[MikeBurgess]

1 minute ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

But you don't compete in it any more, do you?

 

Would you have been fine with s#!tcanning revo when you were playing it at a  high level?

 

And even if the answer back then was yes, how does that square with those who did not want to lose their sport?

Currently I'm shooting open mostly because I signed up for nationals on a whim, I still shoot revolver at local ICORE matches. 

 

First my proposal doesn't S#$%^ can the division it mealy imparts participation requirements in order for it to be eligible for L3 and Nationals recognition.  

 

it squares by not making anyone loose their sport, it just makes it so if there is not enough competition at the higher levels then there wont be a L3 or National championship held for it. 

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Not sure how that works.  Why does anyone in one division care about how many other division winners there are?  How does a Revo division win against 5 others affect or diminish a CO win against 50 others?

 

That's what no one can explain because it's all personal biases with no rational thought.

 

Because a division winner is a division winner. It's probably only something people who are really interested in the competition aspect of USPSA are going to understand. No explanation is going to make it sink in if you don't really care about competing. 

 

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Because a division winner is a division winner. It's probably only something people who are really interested in the competition aspect of USPSA are going to understand. No explanation is going to make it sink in if you don't really care about competing. 

 

 

 

Division winners are independent of one another.  There is no such thing as "match winner" except in practicescore.

 

Any division winner, at any level, who gives a s#!t about any other division winner is looking in the wrong place.  They need to stay in their lane and not worry about what's happening elsewhere.

[Racinready300ex]

26 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Division winners are independent of one another.  There is no such thing as "match winner" except in practicescore.

 

Any division winner, at any level, who gives a s#!t about any other division winner is looking in the wrong place.  They need to stay in their lane and not worry about what's happening elsewhere.

 

Do you IDPA? Have you noticed how people in USPSA think of IDPA as a little bit of a joke? Eventually both games will be a joke. Having lots of divisions doesn't improve the sport, it takes away from it. 

 

Maybe put it this way, it devalues winning any division. The less value something has the less likely people are to work for it. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Racinready300ex

[Zincwarrior]

36 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Do you IDPA? Have you noticed how people in USPSA think of IDPA as a little bit of a joke? Eventually both games will be a joke. Having lots of divisions doesn't improve the sport, it takes away from it. 

 

Maybe put it this way, it devalues winning any division. The less value something has the less likely people are to work for it. 

Except...following that argument USPSA should have one division only, of further only one firearm with only one modification schedule.

[Racinready300ex]

Just now, Zincwarrior said:

Except...following that argument USPSA should have one division only, of further only one firearm with only one modification schedule.

 

Not really, I'm cool with divisions no one is making a case for eliminate all the divisions. Have you ever ruined dinner with to much salt? Salt is good, but you can go overboard. 

 

Is there a limit to divisions? We have no means or desire to remove divisions, that is clear from threads like these. All current divisions are here to stay. That's fine, I'm cool with that. But we seem to really like adding divisions. This thread is about adding two new divisions.  Steel Challenge has 13 and just the other day there was a thread about adding Revo Optic to bring it to 14. 

 

We could adopt all 14 of those and add Lim-Minor and SAO-CO that's 16 divisions. And you can bet with in 2 months of doubling the number of divisions there will be a thread about a new division. And if it doesn't matter how small the division is, why wouldn't we add all the divisions? 

[Fishbreath]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

It's probably only something people who are really interested in the competition aspect of USPSA are going to understand. No explanation is going to make it sink in if you don't really care about competing. 

 

I care very much about competing, and I don't think it makes any sense at all. "That other division is easier to win than my division, and that's bad" is a problem of shooter ego, not of the division system.

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I care very much about competing, and I don't think it makes any sense at all. "That other division is easier to win than my division, and that's bad" is a problem of shooter ego, not of the division system.

 

Isn't competition not basically all ego anyway? 

 

Who do you compete against at matches? It's cool, I looked you're the only revo shooter at your club so you don't compete against anyone. 

Edited September 17, 2021 by Racinready300ex