Popper calibration check is hugely flawed

[vluc]

We would need a clever person to invent an affordable calibration device that can be used between squads to check each piece of steel.  All knuckle tests are not the same.

 

 

[JFlowers]

One thing I don't see anyone here having mentioned is making sure that poppers, especially large poppers, have a solid base under them.  I have RO'd stages where the popper basically sunk or dug into the ground over time, which makes it very hard to keep in calibration.  By setting up the stage with the popper sitting on a piece of plywood and spiked through the plywood into the ground, the popper stayed level and in calibration far longer and caused less issues.

[rowdyb]

2 hours ago, JFlowers said:

One thing I don't see anyone here having mentioned is making sure that poppers, especially large poppers, have a solid base under them.

Page 2 of this thread, I wrote as much on Wednesday. Quote: The surface the popper is set on and the ROs attention to it through the match is a far bigger determiner of an even outcome than just the nature of the popper itself or the current calibration process. When I see poppers set on uneven surfaces, on loose surfaces, bolts loose, poppers at rest at an extreme sideways lean and so on I just know there is going to be an issue for someone.

[motosapiens]

On 9/12/2020 at 9:06 AM, dmshozer1 said:

What is your process for checking and adjusting them?

turn the adjustment bolt until I am confident the popper will fall when shot. It's not rocket surgery. The only time it should ever really be a problem is in gusty winds. We had an afternoon like that at limited nats last year, and on our last stage th CRO just called an REF if a popper was obviously hit in the calibration zone but didn't go down because of the wind.

[Chills1994]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:57 PM, BritinUSA said:

I think it would be rather difficult for a person to adjust a popper in that manner without being seen.

 
Well...yeah... some of us old school St. Louis area shooters thought it would be easy enough to catch a guy NOT pasting targets either (before it was his wife’s turn to shoot the stage)

 

Another dude from southern Missouri used to load his magazine with a dummy round before each classifier stage so he would have to tap, rack, and bang his way to finish the classifier.

 

I have seen people wrap the cable around the prop stick to take up any slack, so a popper would activate a swinger target sooner.

[MHicks]

It doesn't seem like it would take long to figure out something like a husband not taping A's on targets because his wife is shooting next. Unless she's a horrible shot and has to shoot 5 or 6 shots at each target in hopes of getting 2 hits. And if she isn't firing half a dozen shots she'd have to know and remember which targets to intentionally  miss. The closer targets would be obvious to the ro and other shooters. To get away with it once, ok, but how could it be a continuing ongoing problem?

[Sarge]

23 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

 
Well...yeah... some of us old school St. Louis area shooters thought it would be easy enough to catch a guy NOT pasting targets either (before it was his wife’s turn to shoot the stage)

 

Another dude from southern Missouri used to load his magazine with a dummy round before each classifier stage so he would have to tap, rack, and bang his way to finish the classifier.

 

I have seen people wrap the cable around the prop stick to take up any slack, so a popper would activate a swinger target sooner.

Glad I’m not the only one that KNOWS there are cheaters in every game.

[Ming the Merciless]

43 minutes ago, Chills1994 said:

 
Well...yeah... some of us old school St. Louis area shooters thought it would be easy enough to catch a guy NOT pasting targets either (before it was his wife’s turn to shoot the stage)

 

Another dude from southern Missouri used to load his magazine with a dummy round before each classifier stage so he would have to tap, rack, and bang his way to finish the classifier.

 

I have seen people wrap the cable around the prop stick to take up any slack, so a popper would activate a swinger target sooner.

 

19 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Glad I’m not the only one that KNOWS there are cheaters in every game.

 

Project much?  Out of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who have run through your matches, you have to remember back 15 years to remember 1 or possibly 2 people who cheated? and now you consider everyone a possible cheater?  Sad.

[Joe4d]

On 9/13/2020 at 7:51 PM, Ming the Merciless said:

 

 

Project much?  Out of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who have run through your matches, you have to remember back 15 years to remember 1 or possibly 2 people who cheated? and now you consider everyone a possible cheater?  Sad.

Hate to cloud your rose colored glasses,.. But news flash. Awful lot of folks with ZERO honor.
I have only RO and CRO a handful of majors. But folks will flat out LIE , CHEAT, and STEAL  CONSTANTLY to get a single point.  Blatant 180 violations,, cry like babies in denial,, Flat out miss, cry perfect double, ( my answer is always if you are good enough to put 2 in one hole, you are good enough to spread em out). 
Drop gun doing your super cool speed reholster, barrel pinned against leg straight up range,,, sponsored GM crying and fussing like a spoiled brat when I DQ'd 
Seen a mister fancy pants in an open bay with no squad by himself, practicing the stage,, shooting and what looked like checking Zero,, DURING a match !  
Brought it up to MD, who just asked if I had a problem with it.,, well yeh I do its against the rules DQ him... nope,,, cant do that its MR fancy pants.  Was first and last time I shot that club, didnt even finish that match due to blatant cheating.
I DQ'd a big hotshot GM for cheating at just a local, MD/RM wouldnt DQ him,, "Well I cant do that he is "big name guy"
Was last time I EVER RO'd,, and 2 things happened.... I got disillusioned about one of my hero/idols in the sport.
2,, Said MD nearly canceled a major due to no RO;s,,, made me laugh. As I figured I must not be the only guy that refused to RO for him... Even came on this page ranting and raving about how many certified RO's were in his area.

Look,, I love the game of USPSA,, mostly I shoot against myself. If there was a local match I would be shooting today. But I am not disillusioned  into thinking everything is just peachy keen.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Joe4d

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, Ming the Merciless said:

 

 

Project much?  Out of the hundreds, perhaps thousands of people who have run through your matches, you have to remember back 15 years to remember 1 or possibly 2 people who cheated? and now you consider everyone a possible cheater?  Sad.

Not really sure what you are trying to say. I simply said there are cheaters in any game. And that certainly includes USPSA. Yep' I have certainly RO'ed thousands and thousands of shooters and have seen countless examples of cheating. Not just one or two in the last 15 years? It's a game with rules. Somebody is always looking for a way to manipulate (break) those rules.

[dmshozer1]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

turn the adjustment bolt until I am confident the popper will fall when shot. It's not rocket surgery. The only time it should ever really be a problem is in gusty winds. We had an afternoon like that at limited nats last year, and on our last stage th CRO just called an REF if a popper was obviously hit in the calibration zone but didn't go down because of the wind.

SO YOUR ADJUSTMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POWER FACTOR,

JUST MAKE IT SO THAT IF IT IS HIT IT WILL FALL ELIMINATING SCORING PROBLEMS.

INTERESTING

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

SO YOUR ADJUSTMENT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POWER FACTOR,

JUST MAKE IT SO THAT IF IT IS HIT IT WILL FALL ELIMINATING SCORING PROBLEMS.

INTERESTING

Stop shouting. Yes, if hit in the calibration zone or above, the popper should fall. This doesn't need to be complicated.

[dmshozer1]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

Stop shouting. Yes, if hit in the calibration zone or above, the popper should fall. This doesn't need to be complicated.

Funny,

I thought steel targets were to prove power, but I get your process.

 

[Thomas H]

2 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

Funny,

I thought steel targets were to prove power, but I get your process.

 

 

Ah, there's the problem.

 

No, they aren't there to prove power. That's what chrono is for.

 

 

[MHicks]

Most of the time poppers are set to just barely stay up. Doesn't take much to knock them down. But there are some carelessly set up or that get out of adjustment. 

[dmshozer1]

35 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

Ah, there's the problem.

 

No, they aren't there to prove power. That's what chrono is for.

 

 

Then why is there a power factor at all?

Most matches shooters go to don't chrono. Most matches that do chrono just ask for ammo. Out comes your "special" ammo. I agree some matches have  a system to avoid that.

I have picked up mags and stripped a few rds from shooters that have just shot while noticing the brass was dribbling out over their hand. We have all seen that. What a joke! Chronoed at home and wondered how they got their gun to cycle!

Try this some time. Set a popper up at 12 yds. Use known 125 power ammo. Keep re setting the popper until it will just fall.

You will be shocked at how hard the popper is set.

Doing  the knuckle process I agree will eliminate popper problems but it allows under powered shooters to  get away with it.

Just saying

[IVC]

19 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

Another dude from southern Missouri used to load his magazine with a dummy round before each classifier stage so he would have to tap, rack, and bang his way to finish the classifier.

I'm sorta new to this cheating thing, but my idea behind cheating would be to try to get a better score, no? Anyone can just go slow or miss if they want to lower their score... 

[IVC]

19 hours ago, motosapiens said:

We had an afternoon like that at limited nats last year, and on our last stage th CRO just called an REF if a popper was obviously hit in the calibration zone but didn't go down because of the wind.

That's a sound decision, but is it really by the book? 

[IVC]

54 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

Then why is there a power factor at all?

Recoil management. 

 

Poppers must fall when hit with a sub-minor load. The only difference in PF would be how fast the popper goes down, which is only important if it's an activator. 

[dmshozer1]

8 minutes ago, IVC said:

Recoil management. 

 

Poppers must fall when hit with a sub-minor load. The only difference in PF would be how fast the popper goes down, which is only important if it's an activator. 

If they are using a sub minor load on purpose that is cheating. By the rules the shooter is required to load at least to the power factor division they are shooting.

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, IVC said:

That's a sound decision, but is it really by the book? 

that depends on whether you ask a wacked range-lawyer who cares only about 'the book', or an experienced RMI who cares about competitive equity. Just because a situation isn't explicitly described by the rules shouldn't stop an intelligent person from applying the rules in a sensible and equitable fashion.

 

Personally I think an RO has wide latitude to call REF when something is *obviously* effed up. I don't see why calling REF for the wind obviously holding a popper up is any less by the book than calling REF for the wind knocking a popper down. I've also seen it called when the wind does something clearly unusual with a max trap, either holding it wide open for longer than normal, or (more commonly) preventing it from opening all the way.

[ChuckS]

7 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

If they are using a sub minor load on purpose that is cheating. By the rules the shooter is required to load at least to the power factor division they are shooting.

The calibration ammo requirements are sub-minor (115-125)

[barry]

I suggest that everyone that thinks everyone else is doing it wrong start running a club the way it should be done.

[dmshozer1]

1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

The calibration ammo requirements are sub-minor (115-125)

True,  but it is 125 for the shooter.

If they are running below that on purpose, that;s cheating.

If the popper is set correctly, they will not knock it over when

running their below sub- minor ammo.

This is why the knuckle setting of poppers is used. If not there would be a lot of calibration calls.

I am not disagreeing with the above process, I am just stating how it should be done according to the rules.

[motosapiens]

4 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

True,  but it is 125 for the shooter.

If they are running below that on purpose, that;s cheating.

If the popper is set correctly, they will not knock it over when

running their below sub- minor ammo.

This is why the knuckle setting of poppers is used. If not there would be a lot of calibration calls.

I am not disagreeing with the above process, I am just stating how it should be done according to the rules.

 

you seem to be confused about the rules. they actually very specifically ensure that a correctly set popper will be knocked over by a sub-minor hit in the calibration zone. That's why we use sub-minor calibration ammo. We use knuckle testing because we don't have time to repeatedly shoot poppers in between squads.

 

For local matches, I always carry a handful of subminor ammo (115-117pf) for calibration challenges.

Edited September 14, 2020 by motosapiens