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Popper calibration check is hugely flawed


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...The only fixes that keeps the same rules is to either drop the calibration ammo PF or raise Minor PF.  Of those two, raising Minor (Heresy!) would be more effective as if we lower calibration PF much, it becomes an endless stream of reshoots from poppers falling over in the wind.


I'd have no problem with that as long as major goes up too. It's not really worth the extra point right now....


--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592

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2 hours ago, AHI said:

Arguments like this is why its hard to get new people to try USPSA.

This is a very specific forum where interested people discuss very nuanced details of the rules. It's not for everyone and it's certainly not something an average USPSA shooter will get into for quite some time. Most of the guys I shoot with don't dabble in small details. 

 

So, I would disagree that anything we say here has any direct effect on new people trying USPSA. 

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how about you just set up the damn steel properly and maintain it throughout the match. it's not like it's hard to do.


No, it's pretty easy, but some folks refuse to do it. That can lead to unequal stage presentation to some shooters. That in turn makes people come here and discuss changing the rulebook.

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592

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What would it take for the popper f#%¥ing issue  to be brought for general membership to vote on and bypassing the NROI and the BOD?

 

full size popper doesn’t fall when struck in the “bulb” calibration zone or higher = a range equipment malfunction = automatic reshoot.

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As a slight side note ...at a local monthly club match years ago, I shot a full size popper in the calibration zone, and the popper remained standing.  I went to the RM/MD to ask for a calibration.  He came over and gave it the “knuckle test” and said “Oh, yeah, that IS set heavy.  RESHOOT!”

 

The MD/RM made some adjustments to the popper’s bolt, and I re-shot the stage...flawlessly.  🙂

 

Have any local club shooters snitched out their RM”s or MD’s for not following the proscribed calibration procedure?

 

 

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4 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

As a slight side note ...at a local monthly club match years ago, I shot a full size popper in the calibration zone, and the popper remained standing.  I went to the RM/MD to ask for a calibration.  He came over and gave it the “knuckle test” and said “Oh, yeah, that IS set heavy.  RESHOOT!”

 

The MD/RM made some adjustments to the popper’s bolt, and I re-shot the stage...flawlessly.  🙂

 

Have any local club shooters snitched out their RM”s or MD’s for not following the proscribed calibration procedure?

 

 

When I get as local MD I got summoned for calibration. I shot it with my open gun and of course it fell. The guy was like WTF! Of course I gave home reshoot.😂

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7 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

As a slight side note ...at a local monthly club match years ago, I shot a full size popper in the calibration zone, and the popper remained standing.  I went to the RM/MD to ask for a calibration.  He came over and gave it the “knuckle test” and said “Oh, yeah, that IS set heavy.  RESHOOT!”

 

The MD/RM made some adjustments to the popper’s bolt, and I re-shot the stage...flawlessly.  🙂

 

Have any local club shooters snitched out their RM”s or MD’s for not following the proscribed calibration procedure?

 

 

Why would you do this?  Why would you even consider this?  

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9 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

Why would you do this?  Why would you even consider this?  

And I quote what I've heard countless times at other matches/clubs/ranges it will either be "It's just a local" and or "It's not like anyone is winning a car today".

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1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

Why would you do this?  Why would you even consider this?  

 

While it’s illegal per the rulebook, this process is superior to the legal procedure in my opinion. I’d love to see the rulebook changed to something more scientific, yet procedurally similar.

 

There’s nothing dumber than the “correct” procedure. Shoot a popper that has already been rocked by a previous shot. Right. What kind of sense does that make? I find it hilarious that it’s called a calibration by match staff - with a straight face.

 

”All right, you already took a huge bite out of this apple. Let’s get the scale out and weigh it.” 🙄
 

If you were treating it like the calibration of other tools or equipment, staff would routinely set all of the poppers during the match. Then immediately test them with sub-minor calibration ammo.

 

THAT is something I’d be willing to call ‘popper calibration.’

 

 

Edited by MemphisMechanic
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10 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

What would it take for the popper f#%¥ing issue  to be brought for general membership to vote on and bypassing the NROI and the BOD?

 

full size popper doesn’t fall when struck in the “bulb” calibration zone or higher = a range equipment malfunction = automatic reshoot.

 

everyone I know would vote against that. 

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10 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

As a slight side note ...at a local monthly club match years ago, I shot a full size popper in the calibration zone, and the popper remained standing.  I went to the RM/MD to ask for a calibration.  He came over and gave it the “knuckle test” and said “Oh, yeah, that IS set heavy.  RESHOOT!”

 

The MD/RM made some adjustments to the popper’s bolt, and I re-shot the stage...flawlessly.  🙂

 

Have any local club shooters snitched out their RM”s or MD’s for not following the proscribed calibration procedure?

 

 

sometimes a simple physical inspection shows that the popper is screwed up. This used to be fairly common on the first stage of the day at our club, and we certainly never calibrated. We were like 'oops', someone forgot to adjust those when building the stage. I still check them when I get to a stage, but it seems like our club members have become much more diligent about checking and adjusting during setup.

 

If it's obvious the popper not functioning correctly, it's not against the rules to simply declare it REF and fix it. You don't *have* to try to screw the shooter over or force him to take a gamble if it's obvious, and you don't have to waste everyone's time chasing down calibration ammo. Just fix the obvious problem and move on. This stuff generally shouldn't happen at a bigger match, but even then, sometimes weird stuff does happen for the first squad. 

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1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

 

While it’s illegal per the rulebook, this process is superior to the legal procedure in my opinion. I’d love to see the rulebook changed to something more scientific, yet procedurally similar.

 

There’s nothing dumber than the “correct” procedure. Shoot a popper that has already been rocked by a previous shot. Right. What kind of sense does that make? I find it hilarious that it’s called a calibration by match staff - with a straight face.

 

”All right, you already took a huge bite out of this apple. Let’s get the scale out and weigh it.” 🙄
 

If you were treating it like the calibration of other tools or equipment, staff would routinely set all of the poppers during the match. Then immediately test them with sub-minor calibration ammo.

 

THAT is something I’d be willing to call ‘popper calibration.’

 

 

unless the popper is screwed up or defective somehow, the current rules work fine. The only issues I have ever seen like you describe were brand new forward fallers at A1 in SLC a few years back. If you didn't adjust the latches right, they would take 2 shots to fall over. the latch would drop part way on the first shot, then all the way on the 2nd shot. We adjusted all the latches on my stage so they couldn't be accidentally set to high before the match started.

but any normal popper still remains in the same position if it doesn't fall over.

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3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

And I quote what I've heard countless times at other matches/clubs/ranges it will either be "It's just a local" and or "It's not like anyone is winning a car today".

Totally get this and totally get that it’s illegal per se but this is just an a_-hole thing and hasn’t Troy mentioned before about not being an a_-hole?  That is the epitome of an a_-hole move. Hey you gave me a reshoot because you applied logic to a situation and didn’t go by the letter so I’m going to snitch you to dnroi so you get a talking to.  Especially since you’re such a by the book stickler that you didn’t demand the calibration shoot but willingly took the reshoot as offered. 
 

this is how you lose match directors and staff in a volunteer sport. 

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1 hour ago, Nathanb said:

Totally get this and totally get that it’s illegal per se but this is just an a_-hole thing and hasn’t Troy mentioned before about not being an a_-hole?  That is the epitome of an a_-hole move. Hey you gave me a reshoot because you applied logic to a situation and didn’t go by the letter so I’m going to snitch you to dnroi so you get a talking to.  Especially since you’re such a by the book stickler that you didn’t demand the calibration shoot but willingly took the reshoot as offered. 
 

this is how you lose match directors and staff in a volunteer sport. 

I've never complained about what was said. I did the same myself this month running a shooter. I am not a certified RO. But I do understand field expediency. 

I agree much about poppers is to variable to be trusted. From how they're placed to how they're calibrated 

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2 hours ago, rowdyb said:

I've never complained about what was said. I did the same myself this month running a shooter. I am not a certified RO. But I do understand field expediency. 

I agree much about poppers is to variable to be trusted. From how they're placed to how they're calibrated 

Sorry I quoted you but probably shouldn’t have. I was fired up. Lol. I’ve set enough poppers to know if I really think it needs shot. The fact someone considered reporting it to dnroi really rubs me the wrong way. 

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47 minutes ago, Nathanb said:

Sorry I quoted you but probably shouldn’t have. I was fired up. Lol. I’ve set enough poppers to know if I really think it needs shot. The fact someone considered reporting it to dnroi really rubs me the wrong way. 


me?  As the shooter that was just given a re-shoot, no I wouldn’t snitch anybody out over giving me a re-shoot and the RM or MD giving it the knuckle test to “calibrate” the popper.

 

what I was saying... or rather trying to say was I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody on that same squad or another squad snitched out the RM or MD either to the section coordinator or NROI  (for giving the reshoot and the knuckle calibration).

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17 hours ago, Chills1994 said:

What would it take for the popper f#%¥ing issue  to be brought for general membership to vote on and bypassing the NROI and the BOD?

 

full size popper doesn’t fall when struck in the “bulb” calibration zone or higher = a range equipment malfunction = automatic reshoot.

 

We're not supposed to say "Go read the rules." so I won't.

 

Go read the bylaws!  (I have.)  I can't find ANY provisions there that would allow for the action you seek.  You would have to get a change made to the bylaws, which, by the way, can only be accomplished by the BoD.  I seriously doubt they're going to approve a general membership ballot initiative such as you propose.

 

But feel free to lobby your AD to get him to put it on the agenda!

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I think a lot of people have missed Sarge's humor. 

Seriously, y'all need to lighten up a bit.

 

Quote

When I get as local MD I got summoned for calibration. I shot it with my open gun and of course it fell. The guy was like WTF! Of course I gave home reshoot.😂

 

There might be some grammatical errors in that post, but I take to mean he was asked to be RM for a local match (maybe/probably not his home club), and was then asked to rule on a popper. . .a popper he never had the opportunity to examine before that moment.

 

I've been in that exact situation. 

 

Walkin up to a popper you don't know for certain was set right to start with is a no-win scenario. Shoot it with a .44Magnum if available, or in his case a .38 Major Open gun, gets a good belly-laugh, and gives the shooter a reshoot they most likely deserved because the host club fudged the setup to start with.

 

Trying to get immersed in a drawn out discussion based on a poorly set stage is a loser.  Don't get dragged down that rabbit hole.

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3 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

I think a lot of people have missed Sarge's humor. 

Seriously, y'all need to lighten up a bit.

 

 

There might be some grammatical errors in that post, but I take to mean he was asked to be RM for a local match (maybe/probably not his home club), and was then asked to rule on a popper. A popper he never had the opportunity to examine before that moment.

 

I've been in that exact situation. 

 

Walkin up to a popper you don't know for certain was set right to start with is a no-win scenario. Shoot it with a .44Magnum if available, or in his case a .38 Major Open gun, gets a good belly-laugh, and gives the shooter a reshoot they most likely deserved because the host club fudged the setup to start with.

 

Trying to get immersed in a drawn out discussion based on a poorly set stage is a loser.  Don't get dragged down that rabbit hole.

I was the MD of my own local match at the time which by default made me the RM. I was who got called if stuff didn't work. The guy shot it twice right in the calibration zone and it was obviously not adjusted properly. All the regulars on the squad laughed their a$$es off.

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2 hours ago, Chills1994 said:


 

okay, why?

cuz we like the way it works now (as long as RO's are reasonably attentive to their job),  and when people lose a calibration around here, they are all willing to admit that they were just hoping to get lucky, and they know they got a low hit or an edge hit. I know there are a few dozen people on the internet that care deeply about this issue, but it just doesn't seem to be as big an issue to everyone else. I would think the issue of two bullets through the same hole would be more of a thing for people to complain about. That happens to me at least once or twice a year. Sometimes I get credit for it, sometimes not. Sometimes I just imagine it actually happened and I want credit for it, but if there's no physical evidence.... bummer...

I think we are generally headed in the right direction on the popper thing, because troy and other RM's have been reminding RO's for a couple years now to manage the steel on their stage and check it routinely, and gradually the mindset is changing. I'd rather see the RO mindset continue to change than change the rules to make it easier to cheat and/or whine.

 

I get the argument that a few points can be critically important, but as someone who has lost some big matches by a point or two, I don't get too wrapped around the axle about which particular points were the ones that cost me. In every match, every shooter makes myriad mistakes, and every shooter has odd or unlucky things happen (wind gusts, sun angle, dust obscuring targets, distractions, etc....). This is the nature of sport. Instead of dumbing it down so nothing unprovable can ever happen, we make a good-faith effort to keep things equitable in a very dynamic outdoor sport. I like it.

 

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44 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

cuz we like the way it works now (as long as RO's are reasonably attentive to their job),  and when people lose a calibration around here, they are all willing to admit that they were just hoping to get lucky, and they know they got a low hit or an edge hit. I know there are a few dozen people on the internet that care deeply about this issue, but it just doesn't seem to be as big an issue to everyone else. I would think the issue of two bullets through the same hole would be more of a thing for people to complain about. That happens to me at least once or twice a year. Sometimes I get credit for it, sometimes not. Sometimes I just imagine it actually happened and I want credit for it, but if there's no physical evidence.... bummer...

I think we are generally headed in the right direction on the popper thing, because troy and other RM's have been reminding RO's for a couple years now to manage the steel on their stage and check it routinely, and gradually the mindset is changing. I'd rather see the RO mindset continue to change than change the rules to make it easier to cheat and/or whine.

 

I get the argument that a few points can be critically important, but as someone who has lost some big matches by a point or two, I don't get too wrapped around the axle about which particular points were the ones that cost me. In every match, every shooter makes myriad mistakes, and every shooter has odd or unlucky things happen (wind gusts, sun angle, dust obscuring targets, distractions, etc....). This is the nature of sport. Instead of dumbing it down so nothing unprovable can ever happen, we make a good-faith effort to keep things equitable in a very dynamic outdoor sport. I like it.

 

At your local club matches, do the RO’s :

 

A.  Stay at the same stage all day long and run multiple squads through

 

B.  Stay with squads and move from stage to stage with their squads.

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