Popper calibration check is hugely flawed

[dmshozer1]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

you seem to be confused about the rules. they actually very specifically ensure that a correctly set popper will be knocked over by a sub-minor hit in the calibration zone. That's why we use sub-minor calibration ammo. We use knuckle testing because we don't have time to repeatedly shoot poppers in between squads.

 

For local matches, I always carry a handful of subminor ammo (115-117pf) for calibration challenges.

I agree with you about the knuckle procedure and why it is used.

What I am saying is that shooters are using below sub minor ammo.  Poppers are supposed to be set

to fall at 115. The knuckle test is way below the 115 set up. So the cheaters get away with it for the sake of keeping the match flowing.

[IVC]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

that depends on whether you ask a wacked range-lawyer who cares only about 'the book', or an experienced RMI who cares about competitive equity. Just because a situation isn't explicitly described by the rules shouldn't stop an intelligent person from applying the rules in a sensible and equitable fashion.

 

Personally I think an RO has wide latitude to call REF when something is *obviously* effed up. I don't see why calling REF for the wind obviously holding a popper up is any less by the book than calling REF for the wind knocking a popper down. I've also seen it called when the wind does something clearly unusual with a max trap, either holding it wide open for longer than normal, or (more commonly) preventing it from opening all the way.

I did a search just to see if there are any contradictory issues here and it seems that it's exactly as you say - Section 4.6 deals with REF and rule 4.6.1 states:

 

4.6.1 Range equipment must present the challenge fairly and equitably to all competitors. Range equipment failure includes the displacement of cardboard targets, the premature activation of metal or moving targets, the failure to reset moving targets or steel targets, the malfunction of mechanically or electrically operated equipment, and the failure of props such as openings, ports, and barriers.

 

There is nothing that limits REF to the examples in the rule (wording is "includes"), so it can apply to other cases of failures. The main principle is declared in the beginning and uses the word "must," i.e., it "must" be equitable and fair. A hit on a popper that doesn't fall, but where the RO determines it was because of an external factor such as wind, is indeed best handled under the rule 4.6.1 and a reshoot under 4.6.2. It's also common sense, so win-win. 

[IVC]

37 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

What I am saying is that shooters are using below sub minor ammo. 

We are not talking about shooters using sub-minor at all. We are talking about the calibration process which requires the use of sub-minor. 

[ampleworks]

Steel must fall to score... shooters need to ensure their hits are adequate to make the steel fall.

 

BUT...the clubs need to ensure their steel is capable of falling and is in good shape. This means calibrating it with appropriate ammunition during setup as well as if there is a calibration call or an adjustment to the steel during a match. I also witnessed this at a major match where the ROs/RM adjusted the calibration of a popper but did not shoot it to verify their changes were going to result in a properly calibrated target.

 

The ROs at majors also need to take note of the state of their stage. If a popper is obviously too far forward, like in case at Area 5/Bluegrass this past weekend where nearly none of their popper adjustment bolts are jam nutted, it needs fixed rather than telling the shooter "it's not been a problem yet" and hope that no one has a problem because one of our squadmates had exactly that, getting screwed by a popper and the subsequent lower score on a reshoot all because the ROs were too arrogant.

 

Not everyone is shooting 180PF nor should they have to when steel isn't calibrated.

[PatJones]

I agree with you about the knuckle procedure and why it is used.
What I am saying is that shooters are using below sub minor ammo.  Poppers are supposed to be set
to fall at 115. The knuckle test is way below the 115 set up. So the cheaters get away with it for the sake of keeping the match flowing.

You seem awfully hung up on "proving" power factor. I suggest you offer to run chrono at your next local. Poppers don't "prove" power factor, chrono does.

Are you worried someone else will win the free RV?

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592

[shred]

Couple stories here... I've been shooting since the early 1990s, so seen it a few times.

 

First shooter on a stage at an Area match.  The stage right after chrono.  I was shooting a 9x25 Dillon and just chronoed at least 177 PF, probably more.

Dead center hit on the big popper, which activated some stuff.   Opening a door later in the stage also activated that same stuff and needed to be opened to shoot it.  Opened door to see said stuff not moving, saw it start to move, thought 'well crap', shot the rest of the stage, saw popper up with perfect center hit.  Called for calibration.  Popper fell on RM shot. 

 

Next shooter up same thing happens, except his shot isn't quite dead center.  Same result.

 

Third shooter is shooting Revo.  RM is still sitting at the picnic table filling out the paperwork from shooter 2 and witnesses the revo shooter put an entire cylinderfull onto the popper with no result.  Stops the shooter, inspects the stage.  Turns out opening the door took the pressure off the activator cable that was holding the popper up when shooting the stage but not when calibrating.  Somehow the cable had been borked between squads.  RM said "reshoots for everyone" and all 3 reshot.  That was, IMO, the right call.

 

More recently at CO Nationals last year in Utah.  It was I think the last stage and I'd been penalty-free up until then.  This was the day with howling winds and dust storms.   I shot the popper in the wind with a good hit, but at the end of the stage there it was, standing up.  RM rolled up, shot it down when it was calmer and said "you got hosed by the wind".

[dmshozer1]

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

You seem awfully hung up on "proving" power factor. I suggest you offer to run chrono at your next local. Poppers don't "prove" power factor, chrono does.

Are you worried someone else will win the free RV?

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
 

If you cannot put a popper down that is by the rules calibrated you are cheating with low power ammo,

This is a game we play with rules. They should be followed.

The knuckle thing is not by the rules set properly. That is all I am saying.

I have run the chrono at matches. I can guarantee you some of the ammo I checked was not the ammo used in the match.

Come on boys and girls, If you have played this game for awhile you  know many shooters are shooting ammo below the power factor for their division.

[PatJones]

If you cannot put a popper down that is by the rules calibrated you are cheating with low power ammo

I load to 135 power factor and have proved it on various chronographs at matches. I find it offensive that you would imply that a malfunctioning popper proves I'm cheating.

As described in several posts, ROs with good sense can prevent a shooter from having their match ruined by malfunctioning props. You sir, and your attitude, are the problem with popper calibration.

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592

[MemphisMechanic]

11 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

If you cannot put a popper down that is by the rules calibrated you are cheating with low power ammo,

This is a game we play with rules. They should be followed.

Popper bases pound their way into the ground each time they’re dropped.

 

Wind plays a huge factor.

 

Oftentimes the bolts are loose at the hinge (or the adjust isn’t locknutted) so the entire plate has some play in it.

 

Poppers were used to prove powerfactor in the 80s when a chronograph was an extremely expensive and unreliable machine.

 

The current calibration system is outdated.

 

What I wouldn’t mind seeing? 
 

Shooter punches popper within the circle, it doesn’t fall. That mag is withdrawn from the gun and handed to match staff. He goes and chrono’s with this ammo.

 

If it makes PF, he gets a reshoot and the claptrap of a popper gets inspected/adjusted/repositioned/tightened so that 125PF knocks it down easily, and you don’t have a chorus line of Production shooters waiting at chrono.

 

I’ve had plenty of instances where my 137PF ammo doesn’t drop steel that ought to have fallen. So my opinion is rather strong here.

 

Most guys who are strongly in favor of “poppers keep light loading guys from cheating!” camp have not spent a great deal of time at big matches shooting Production or Revolver.

 

We’re aware of just how inconsistent they are.

 

If they catch ALL of they guys shooting sub-minor, this inconsistency means they will also f*** over SOME of the guys legally shooting minor.

Edited September 15, 2020 by MemphisMechanic

[BritinUSA]

These issues (mostly with the large poppers) have been occurring for many years, I suspect most competitors have seen someone get hosed by a bad call with this steel.

 

Yet nothing ever changes.

 

Not every match has a chronograph, so testing the PF is not always possible.

 

Your point about the steel driving the base into the ground is certainly valid. A rear-falling popper will eventually wind up leaning further backward over time, this has the effect of lowering the lowest activation point, ie. the lowest point where a hit will knock it down.
 

A popper that falls forward will have the opposite effect, making the popper lean a little further forward thereby raising the lowest activation point. 
 

These changes in angle also affect the activate speed of any connected targets. Its not a consistent challenge, and the larger poppers are worse as they hit the ground harder and drive the base down more than the smaller ones.
 

This discussion is of course entirely academic, I doubt that anything will change.

 

 

[dmshozer1]

1 hour ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Popper bases pound their way into the ground each time they’re dropped.

 

Wind plays a huge factor.

 

Oftentimes the bolts are loose at the hinge (or the adjust isn’t locknutted) so the entire plate has some play in it.

 

Poppers were used to prove powerfactor in the 80s when a chronograph was an extremely expensive and unreliable machine.

 

The current calibration system is outdated.

 

What I wouldn’t mind seeing? 
 

Shooter punches popper within the circle, it doesn’t fall. That mag is withdrawn from the gun and handed to match staff. He goes and chrono’s with this ammo.

 

If it makes PF, he gets a reshoot and the claptrap of a popper gets inspected/adjusted/repositioned/tightened so that 125PF knocks it down easily, and you don’t have a chorus line of Production shooters waiting at chrono.

 

I’ve had plenty of instances where my 137PF ammo doesn’t drop steel that ought to have fallen. So my opinion is rather strong here.

 

Most guys who are strongly in favor of “poppers keep light loading guys from cheating!” camp have not spent a great deal of time at big matches shooting Production or Revolver.

 

We’re aware of just how inconsistent they are.

 

If they catch ALL of they guys shooting sub-minor, this inconsistency means they will also f*** over SOME of the guys legally shooting minor.

I agree,

It is a mess. That is the reason the knuckle test is popular. It keeps the match moving.

[dmshozer1]

1 hour ago, PatJones said:

 

 

I load to 135 power factor and have proved it on various chronographs at matches. I find it offensive that you would imply that a malfunctioning popper proves I'm cheating.

As described in several posts, ROs with good sense can prevent a shooter from having their match ruined by malfunctioning props. You sir, and your attitude, are the problem with popper calibration.

--
Pat Jones
Firestone CO
USPSA #A79592
 

I never meant that,

I know poppers are very hard to maintain. I just stated that if the popper was calibrated correctly,it

will fall if the shooters ammo made power factor.

What has my attitude got to do with popper calibration. Thats funny

[ampleworks]

The knockle/pinky/palm/whatever test is perfectly valid to see if the steel is close to being right but without an actual shot, it's just going to be close. That brings me to two statements and the burden of each is on the shooter or the club. If both don't follow them then don't bother even putting steel out to shoot.

• Steel must fall to score
• Steel must be calibrated to fall

[shred]

The popper calibration rules are left over from when basically everyone shot major PF, and if you shot minor, you were a noob or wierdo screwing around or -- you screwed up at reloading and were shooting 160-ish PF minor.   Poppers were still calibrated with 125 PF so there was a huge disparity between 'must fall with' and what people actually shot them with.

 

Even the cheaters were typically shooting 140+ PF by shooting a lighter bullet than claimed.

 

In those days it was very rare to get hosed by poppers.  Small poppers had an L-shaped foot on them (you've probably seen them at old clubs) to make them harder to knock down so they wouldn't fall accidentally as much (our host has a rant about the 'calibration foot' on US poppers from long ago).

 

Now here we are in 2020 and the ammo a whole lot of people shoot is right around the calibration PF.  No wonder little variables now cause much more drama and woe.

 

The only fixes that keeps the same rules is to either drop the calibration ammo PF or raise Minor PF.  Of those two, raising Minor (Heresy!) would be more effective as if we lower calibration PF much, it becomes an endless stream of reshoots from poppers falling over in the wind.

[IVC]

13 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

What I wouldn’t mind seeing? 
 

Shooter punches popper within the circle, it doesn’t fall. That mag is withdrawn from the gun and handed to match staff. He goes and chrono’s with this ammo.

 

If it makes PF, he gets a reshoot and the claptrap of a popper gets inspected/adjusted/repositioned/tightened so that 125PF knocks it down easily, and you don’t have a chorus line of Production shooters waiting at chrono.

We already have it - metal plates. 

 

It's even simpler with the plates. If you hit them and they don't fall, you don't have to "validate" your ammo or calibrate anything, it's a REF and you get a reshoot. There is a reason MD-s don't want plates at higher level matches and my guess is that the process you wouldn't mind seeing is precisely the reason - too many reshoots. 

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, dmshozer1 said:

I never meant that,

I know poppers are very hard to maintain. I just stated that if the popper was calibrated correctly,it

will fall if the shooters ammo made power factor.

What has my attitude got to do with popper calibration. Thats funny

It will also fall if the shooter's ammo didn't make power factor. That's why we calibrate with sub-minor ammo.

[Sarge]

30 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It will also fall if the shooter's ammo didn't make power factor. That's why we calibrate with sub-minor ammo.

 

[dmshozer1]

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It will also fall if the shooter's ammo didn't make power factor. That's why we calibrate with sub-minor ammo.

True,

But some shooters go below the sub minor to cheat.

My entire point is that the knuckle setting is below the 115 power factor so they get away with it.

As I said above, set a popper up so that a 115 load will just knock it down. You will find that the knuckle

setting is a lot lighter.

And like I have said over and over, I understand why the light setting is used. It keeps the match flowing.

I realize not everyone cheats but when you see brass dribbling out of the "Joe average"shooters gun and

his double taps at 15 to 20 yds. are 2" apart. I mean, come on!

I"m done

[teros135]

1 minute ago, dmshozer1 said:

I"m done

 

Thanks

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, dmshozer1 said:

True,

But some shooters go below the sub minor to cheat.

My entire point is that the knuckle setting is below the 115 power factor so they get away with it.

As I said above, set a popper up so that a 115 load will just knock it down. You will find that the knuckle

setting is a lot lighter.

And like I have said over and over, I understand why the light setting is used. It keeps the match flowing.

I realize not everyone cheats but when you see brass dribbling out of the "Joe average"shooters gun and

his double taps at 15 to 20 yds. are 2" apart. I mean, come on!

I"m done

 

it has not been my experience that shooters intentionally cheat on PF. It has also not been my experience that there would be any point to cheating. Admittedly, I'm a grown man, but I shoot the same speed with major as with minor with the exception of some very specific types of targets, like 4-5 shots per target, or a plate rack at close range.

 

Mrs motosapiens (3 division GM at steel challenge) shoots her 167pf limited ammo in steel because going lighter didn't make any difference in her times.

for sure, it has been my experience that if you try to set a popper so that 115 will just barely knock it down, then you'll be doing lots of reshoots when the popper fails calibration.

Edited September 15, 2020 by motosapiens

[motosapiens]

48 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

oops, AD

Edited September 15, 2020 by motosapiens

[Sarge]

31 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

Thanks

[AHI]

Arguments like this is why its hard to get new people to try USPSA.

[twodownzero]

14 minutes ago, AHI said:

Arguments like this is why its hard to get new people to try USPSA.

USPSA is drastically more fair than any other shooting sport in which I've been involved.  I'm glad we bend over backwards to try to make it as fair as possible.

[AHI]

You miss what i am saying. Going on and on over nitpicking the rules. How a popper should be set then arguing it is not set hard enough . Because you don't shoot at every one. But you set them so they can be knocked over regardless of power factor.