Popper calibration check is hugely flawed

[Whoops!]

When a popper gets hit but doesn’t go down, the calibration check shouldn’t be on a popper that has already been shot.

 

It should be on the gun and ammo used to shoot the popper.

 

If chrono (when available) shows gun and ammo met power factor, the hit should count.

 

 

[driver8M3]

How are you going to chrono the bullet that already hit the popper?

[Whoops!]

Just now, driver8M3 said:

How are you going to chrono the bullet that already hit the popper?

We will never chrono every bullet, but we can definitely chrono the ammo the competitor has on his or her belt.

 

Most chrono stages are much more lax than that.

[RadarTech]

17 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

When a popper gets hit but doesn’t go down, the calibration check shouldn’t be on a popper that has already been shot.

 

It should be on the gun and ammo used to shoot the popper.

 

If chrono (when available) shows gun and ammo met power factor, the hit should count.

 

 

So what do you do if the hit is a ricochet off the ground? Or it hits the bottom of the popper or is an edge hit?

 

[RJH]

29 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

When a popper gets hit but doesn’t go down, the calibration check shouldn’t be on a popper that has already been shot.

 

It should be on the gun and ammo used to shoot the popper.

 

If chrono (when available) shows gun and ammo met power factor, the hit should count.

 

 

 

 

No

[Whoops!]

13 minutes ago, RadarTech said:

So what do you do if the hit is a ricochet off the ground? Or it hits the bottom of the popper or is an edge hit?

 

And lands in the calibration zone as a normal diameter hit?

 

Give it to the competitor for sure.

 

 

[Whoops!]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

No

 Instead, let’s shoot poppers At least twice and count them against the competitor if they go down Because of a poorly calibrated or functioning popper. 

[ampleworks]

"Steel must fall to score" - this puts the burden on the shooter. They must have both an accurate shot as well as proper ammunition.

 

There will never be a "fair" way for this because it's still physics in motion. A small breeze is more than enough to keep a popper from falling on minor PF ammo.

 

If we get into these insanely intricate calibrations, what's next? A calibration because a Texas star didn't spin at the same rate for one competitor as it did another?

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

 Instead, let’s shoot poppers At least twice and count them against the competitor if they go down Because of a poorly calibrated or functioning popper. 

 

In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration

officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c

above),

from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper.

(See rule

4.3.1.5

for Poppers partially hidden by cover).

 

 

 

 

Or we could just follow these fancy rules someone went to all the trouble  to write.   

 

[Whoops!]

1 minute ago, ampleworks said:

"Steel must fall to score" - this puts the burden on the shooter. They must have both an accurate shot as well as proper ammunition.

 

There will never be a "fair" way for this because it's still physics in motion. A small breeze is more than enough to keep a popper from falling on minor PF ammo.

 

If we get into these insanely intricate calibrations, what's next? A calibration because a Texas star didn't spin at the same rate for one competitor as it did another?

You just said exactly why this change should occur.

 

Also, why delay everyone while someone is found to reshoot a popper?

 

Chrono the shooter and be done with it.

[Whoops!]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration

officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c

above),

from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper.

(See rule

4.3.1.5

for Poppers partially hidden by cover).

 

 

 

 

Or we could just follow these fancy rules someone went to all the trouble  to write.   

 

That doesn’t work.

 

We’ve all seen obvious problems that weren’t called because it isn’t defined.

 

Those problems are almost always poppers.

[ampleworks]

Chrono has nothing to do with whether the shooter hit the target in the proper location.

[Whoops!]

Just now, ampleworks said:

Chrono has nothing to do with whether the shooter hit the target in the proper location.

Right, that’s the RO’s job.  That’s why we paint targets.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

That doesn’t work.

 

We’ve all seen obvious problems that weren’t called because it isn’t defined.

 

Those problems are almost always poppers.

 

Strange, I have been shooting USPSA for 15 or so years, using both major and minor guns and never had an issue.  If there is an obvious problem (and I have sen them) reshoot, if you leave it and there is no obvious problem, then call for calibration, if it falls, then miss.  

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

 That’s why we paint targets.

not required at a level 1 and not grounds for a reshoot at a level 2, so.....

[Whoops!]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

not required at a level 1 and not grounds for a reshoot at a level 2, so.....

Right, this rule would only apply where the match is serious enough to have a chrono.

 

Makes it more about competitor skill and less about a mechanism.

[ampleworks]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

not required at a level 1 and not grounds for a reshoot at a level 2, so.....

I wish it were required at level 1 to be honest. It's very little cost compared to everything else for a match. I hate the $1 cans of walmart paint but that's an option.

 

I am a bit annoyed though that Steel Target Paint is sponsoring matches (or at least giving stuff to competitors on the prize table/goodie bag/etc. and the club doesn't even use their product....even at Nationals.

[Sdlrodeo]

So I think the issue with calibration is that the popper may have moved a little from the first bullet but not enough to fall. The second (calibration) bullet may be enough to continue the knock down but might not have been enough if the popper was in its original unfired-upon position. 
 

But: at area 6, I saw a competitor win a popper calibration. First time for that. 
 

What about this?:

the hit was clearly full diameter in or above the proper area of the popper and it didn’t fall. 
Then, the popper must be manually knocked over by fist/etc and set back up before the calibration shot is fired. 

 

Or we could just get rid of big poppers. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Sdlrodeo

[Sdlrodeo]

5 minutes ago, ampleworks said:

I wish it were required at level 1 to be honest. It's very little cost compared to everything else for a match. I hate the $1 cans of walmart paint but that's an option.

 

I am a bit annoyed though that Steel Target Paint is sponsoring matches (or at least giving stuff to competitors on the prize table/goodie bag/etc. and the club doesn't even use their product....even at Nationals.

They used Steel Target Paint at Classic Nationals. 

[ampleworks]

10 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

They used Steel Target Paint at Classic Nationals. 

 

Frostproof had that $1 rattlecan stuff at PCC this year.

[motosapiens]

29 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Strange, I have been shooting USPSA for 15 or so years, using both major and minor guns and never had an issue.  If there is an obvious problem (and I have sen them) reshoot, if you leave it and there is no obvious problem, then call for calibration, if it falls, then miss.  

same here. I remember a few years ago, Ben Stoeger was all worked up about poppers and getting popper-f*cked at big matches. I literally shoot matches almost every weekend, and travel to several major matches a year, and I've been doing it for 8 years now, and I'm still waiting to get popper-f*cked. I'm sure it does actually happen, but it appears to me the overwhelming majority of popper problems are with people getting edge hits, or very low hits, and then crying like babies and hoping for a rule change to save them from their own poor shooting.

[motosapiens]

26 minutes ago, Whoops! said:

Right, this rule would only apply where the match is serious enough to have a chrono.

 

Makes it more about competitor skill and less about a mechanism.

it's already about the competitor skill. Most of the people who think it's about the mechanism are just lacking the skill.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

same here. I remember a few years ago, Ben Stoeger was all worked up about poppers and getting popper-f*cked at big matches. I literally shoot matches almost every weekend, and travel to several major matches a year, and I've been doing it for 8 years now, and I'm still waiting to get popper-f*cked. I'm sure it does actually happen, but it appears to me the overwhelming majority of popper problems are with people getting edge hits, or very low hits, and then crying like babies and hoping for a rule change to save them from their own poor shooting.

Yep 

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

 

No

[motosapiens]

to be fair, I did observe the current A2 director get popper-f*cked at A2 a couple years ago before he was elected. The RO was a bit of a dick about it too, and also a bit of a dick about my concerns when we shot the same stage. I brought the problem to the attention of the RM, and then I made sure I got a good hit on the popper. I think over the last few years most CRO's have gotten with the program that Troy and others have been pushing, which is to keep an eye on the poppers and adjust when needed. When I work a big match, I check and adjust the poppers before every single squad.

Edited September 9, 2020 by motosapiens