Popper calibration check is hugely flawed

[Sarge]

31 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

Or we could just get rid of big poppers. 

That would eliminate 99.9% of popper problems.

[Sarge]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

Yep 

Yep & Yep

[rowdyb]

There's a reason it's called getting popper f*****d. I have seen it happen for sure to others!

 

I have called for calibration 5 times at level 2 and greater matches. I have won twice, once at an Area match where Troy shot the shot and was amazed I won.

 

I also shot one of the "infamous" Double Tap matches where they said if you shot a popper and it didn't go down if you passed chrono then they would score it a hit and just move on. If you hadn't been to chrono yet you went right there and passing chrono was your "calibration". Didn't pass chrono and it was scored a miss and the penalty of not passing chrono. I can guess they did this as the chrono is less arbitrary than poppers and the problem is getting solved off the stage.

 

The surface the popper is set on and the ROs attention to it through the match is a far bigger determiner of an even outcome than just the nature of the popper itself or the current calibration process. When I see poppers set on uneven surfaces, on loose surfaces, bolts loose, poppers at rest at an extreme sideways lean and so on I just know there is going to be an issue for someone.

 

I make sure to shoot it down so that it isn't my issue.

Edited September 10, 2020 by rowdyb

[Cuz]

Doesn’t the shooter have the option of checking the poppers before he shoots a stage if he thinks they will be a problem???


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[Schutzenmeister]

No ... Unless you can show me a rule providing for it.  (News flash ... You can't.)

[Sarge]

43 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Doesn’t the shooter have the option of checking the poppers before he shoots a stage if he thinks they will be a problem???


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Whuuut?

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Cuz said:

Doesn’t the shooter have the option of checking the poppers before he shoots a stage if he thinks they will be a problem???
 

 

this is a reasonable question, and I've seen it called 2 different ways at area matches by experienced RM's. A1 at idaho falls a gm production shooter observed a popper that needed multiple hits by the previous shooter but finally went down so he asked for calibration before shooting. The RM consented and it turned out the popper needed adjustment.  A2 when a i saw the future AD get popperf#cked, I asked the RO's when I got to that stage if they had been adjusting the poppers, they acted like dicks and said they just waited until someone left it standing and requested calibration, so I asked for the RM. That RM chose not to allow calibration despite the previous problems and the poor customer service of the RO's. I got the impression that it might have been different if I had reason to believe the popper was currently out of adjustment, but since all I had was the blatant popperf*ck from the day before and a poor RO attitude, the RM determined there was not justification.

Pro tip, at some big matches, I have observed poppers with loose adjustment bolts and RO's paying no attention to them as the day goes on.

Edited September 10, 2020 by motosapiens

[Chills1994]

I got popper f****d at the 2007 or 2008 Missouri Fall Classic.

 

I was wearing a hat cam at the time and uploaded the video to video google.

 

This is before YouTube became a thing.

 

I started a thread about it here.  And the video clearly showed 5 plus hits in the circular upper “bulb” part of the full size popper.

 

Anywhooo...

 

here it is 12 or 13 years later, and we are STILL talking about competitors getting popper f****d ???

 

(shakes head)

 

 

[Chills1994]

3 hours ago, Cuz said:

Doesn’t the shooter have the option of checking the poppers before he shoots a stage if he thinks they will be a problem???


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You can check out poppers ...if they are set heavy or light...when you go forward to paste targets and reset steel.

 

If the popper feels "off” before it is your turn to shoot, you can always bring it to the attention of the CRO/RO.

[IVC]

Why change the calibration rules? If you want to count hits on steel, use plates instead. Hit a plate and if it doesn't fall it's a REM and a reshoot. Or, if you think a popper is out of calibration, don't shoot it multiple times. Shoot it once and take your chance on calibration. Or, if you want to count hits, just put a tuxedo target instead of a popper and problem solved... 

[stick]

11 hours ago, ampleworks said:

"Steel must fall to score" - this puts the burden on the shooter. They must have both an accurate shot as well as proper ammunition.

 

There will never be a "fair" way for this because it's still physics in motion. A small breeze is more than enough to keep a popper from falling on minor PF ammo.

 

If we get into these insanely intricate calibrations, what's next? A calibration because a Texas star didn't spin at the same rate for one competitor as it did another?

My thoughts exactly.  What's next?  Where does it end?  Steel must fall.  I've been at matches where one popper would fall because of the wind and the same popper would still be standing after a competitor shot it.  Plain and simple...Steel must fall.

[PatJones]

Most USPSA competitors have high cap mags and many shoot major, therefore they don't see a real problem with the status quo. If you shoot a low cap division where all your shoots are already spoken for you feel different about it.

 

I have been affected by malfunctioning poppers at a major. Thankfully I had extra ammo in my stage plan, that's not common shooting when Revo. The popper was corrected for the next shooter.

 

I believe a hit in or above the calibration zone that doesn't fall should be a reshoot, same as plates. A reshoot takes less time than calling the rangemaster for calibration, so it should actually speed up matches.

 

Poppers "recognize" power factor, they are not intended to test it. People often confuse the 2. A complicated mover stage that is activated by a popper that misbehaves can ruin someone's whole match if they don't have the ammo in the stage plan to make it up. These problems only matter to a small subset of USPSA shooters, so we can expect that things will not change.

 

Given the status quo, it falls to the stage ROs to keep on top of their steel. Most do, but s#!t still happens, and it can affect the match outcome of people that have worked hard and traveled far. And that sucks.

 

--

Pat Jones

Firestone CO

USPSA #A79592

 

 

 

 

[Boomstick303]

26 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Most USPSA competitors have high cap mags and many shoot major, therefore they don't see a real problem with the status quo.

 

 

I am not sure I agree because someone shoots HIgh Cap they don't see the issue.   I have been shooting in this sport for a very little amount of time, shoot high cap (CO) and see that large poppers are a huge problem.  Poppers set by new shooters is a huge problem if they are not trained properly.  Settling poppers is a huge problem.  I cannot see where if a RO see that the hit was in the calibration zone or above cannot make the call.  I am not talking about edge hits or if the RO does not see the scoring shot.  When it is obvious to everyone, the shot should count, but the rules do not dictate this.  As it has been brought up in this thread already, how we are still talking about all these issues is beyond me.  There is more to Popper "Fu****g" than just the popper not going down on the original hit and then going down on the calibration check.  I have seen all too many times when someone wins the calibration and their re-shoot goes off the rails.  I would think anyone that has been around awhile has seen this.

 

The other part of this issue is the RO's job.  Maybe I am incorrect but I think the CRO/RO running a stage should be responsible for the steel on their stage.  They need to be more engaged with their stage and inspect steel as their squad runs through the stage and/or squads run through the stage you are responsible for at Level 2/3 matches.  It does not really take all that much effort to make sure the steel on your stage is working properly.  It is a bit appalling that CRO/ROs being dicks if a shooter brings up a possible issue with steel on their stage.  Its hard to believe they do not place themselves in the shooters shoes when asking a question about questionable steel targets.  I would think they would want the issue resolved before they shot the same stage.  If an RO gives a shooter attitude towards issues like this they have zero business being allowed staff positions at Level 2/3 matches in my opinion.  

[BritinUSA]

Generally speaking it is the large poppers that account for most of the problems, The dimensions (and therefore the weight) of the poppers were set back when most competitors were shooting .45 or .38 super making 175PF.

 

As the power factor has lowered considerably since then for Major, there should have been a corresponding change in the design of the poppers. The small poppers and IPSC popper designs all weigh less than the large US popper.
 

Also, a higher percentage of competitors are now shooting Minor, many years ago this number was significantly lower.

 

Abolish the large poppers, and many of the problems will vanish.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, BritinUSA said:

Abolish the large poppers, and many of the problems will vanish.

 

alternate and equally silly plan, abolish minor, and raise the pf to 175.

[IVC]

3 hours ago, PatJones said:

I believe a hit in or above the calibration zone that doesn't fall should be a reshoot, same as plates. A reshoot takes less time than calling the rangemaster for calibration, so it should actually speed up matches.

Tue, but then you'd see very few poppers at higher level matches precisely for the same reason you don't see very many plates. 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

 

alternate and equally silly plan, abolish minor, and raise the pf to 175.

 

Where's the damn like button when you need it

[Nic_USPSA_C]

I like when people shoot a falling forward popper multiple times keeping it up and they think it just will not fall.

[Malarky112]

I had an issue with a large popper very recently at an area match.  Hit was clearly in scoring zone.  Popper didn't fall.  Called for calibration and it fell.  It was a large popper that didn't attach at the base and kind of leaned forward.  I said the same thing...my 1st shot pushed it back just enough and that calibration shot was the final push over.

I had already passed chrono.

I will say I don't think competitors should be resetting that kind of steel, as it can lead to inconsistency (at area 3 match at least)

[Joe4d]

9 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

alternate and equally silly plan, abolish minor, and raise the pf to 175.

well sorta my thoughts.  Maybe folks should try gun powder. Works wonders.
even back in my IDPA days, I kept a box of ammo loaded around 150 pf,,, word gets around quick if a popper is a bit tough.

[nasty618]

Gotta love the "i have been doing this for this many years and i've never seen it happen", therefore it doesnt happen "logic".  

 

Not that we need any more personal accounts of this actually being a thing... but i have witnessed popper f-ing just recently at A8.  There were three challenges on the same squad, the RM remained at the bay after the second one and watched the whole squad shoot.  Weeks later, i spoke to other shooters who confirmed they had the same issue on the same popper but did not challenge it.

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Man I wouldn’t want any part of 9 major if people started loading to 180+ to make power factor. 

Poppers are fine, just keep them calibrated. 

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Is there a power factor that the RM ammo has to be between. Or is it just above the minimum ?

Can he show up with a .50 and defense loads ? Idk just asking.    

[Thomas H]

11 hours ago, Malarky112 said:

I had an issue with a large popper very recently at an area match.  Hit was clearly in scoring zone.  Popper didn't fall.  Called for calibration and it fell.  It was a large popper that didn't attach at the base and kind of leaned forward.  I said the same thing...my 1st shot pushed it back just enough and that calibration shot was the final push over.

I had already passed chrono.

I will say I don't think competitors should be resetting that kind of steel, as it can lead to inconsistency (at area 3 match at least)

 

If it was "just leaning forward" how could your 1st shot push it back and hold it there?  Wouldn't it have just moved back to its forward position?  Poppers that have hooks or tabs (for forward-falling, for example) might be different, but poppers that are just leaning forward---if your shot pushes it back, but not enough to fall, it isn't like it hangs there.  It moves back to its full-forward position.

[driver8M3]

23 minutes ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Is there a power factor that the RM ammo has to be between. Or is it just above the minimum ?

Can he show up with a .50 and defense loads ? Idk just asking.    

Appendix C1 #2

 

"Prior to commencement of a match, the calibration ammunition must be chronographed using the procedure specified in Appendix C2. The calibration ammunition, when tested through each designated firearm, should achieve a power factor between 115.0 and 125.0 to qualify. 9x19 mm is the recommended caliber."

 

Note that it says "should" and not "must."