Why not allow a weapon mounted light in production/carry optics?

[Blaize]

Hello folks, long time lurker, rare poster.

 

been reading the forums the past few months after the weight limit change,  and see all the posts about crazy things people are doing to add weight to their pistols?

 

why not allow a WML? Most police officers use one on duty, many civilians use one for carry, its practical, and adds weight right where you want it most on these lighter polymer guns.

 

even if you stuff it with brass instead of batteries, I still don’t know if it’s enough to bring say, a Glock 34 to the limit.

 

thoughts on this? I really don’t see why this shouldn’t be a rule change? Yes you have to buy another holster but that’s not a big deal to most people I think.

 

i just feel like WMLs are more standard instead of exception these days, it reflects a little more how people run their weapons on duty/carry.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Blaize

[SGT_Schultz]

5 minutes ago, Blaize said:

i just feel like WMLs are more standard instead of exception these days, it reflects a little more how people run their weapons on duty/carry.

 

No they are not.  The % of people who carry a concealed handgun with an attached flashlight is miniscule in the extreme.

 

The % of cops who do is slightly higher, but at least in my area not the norm at all.

[mveto]

Because than you’d be basically shooting limited 10 and creating a limited optics division. Plus USPSA isn’t really geared towards duty/carry applications that’s IDPA.

[IVC]

It adds weight and it adds it in a manner that would make the gun non-Production. That's all. You can shoot it in Limited if it's just a weight, or in Open if it's a functioning flashlight. 

 

There is a division for pretty much any gun out there (with few exceptions). Instead of changing division rules to accommodate different guns, you just move people into different division based on the gun they want to shoot. 

[12glocks]

Seems like it is practical gear for practical shooting to me.  I am more a 3 gunner.  I should read the rules since I want to try carry optics.

 

I do not have a light on any carry pistols, just on HD pistol.  I am considering a light equipped pistol for carry for the first time in 20 years.

Edited July 21, 2020 by 12glocks

[Blaize]

Wow didn’t expect the quick replies and mostly one sided viewpoints. 
 

no one said anything about changing divisions, changing guns etc etc.

 

hell, with a 59oz weight limit, isn’t it pretty much allready limited 10?

 

and how can you make a blanket statement saying most everyone doesn’t carry a WML, most people I know do. Technology has come a long way, you don’t need a mag light bolted to the end of a pistol anymore.

 

and I thought USPSA was for “practical shooting”

 

man to be honest, I feel like this is one of the reasons this sport isn’t growing like it should.

so much close mindedness and reluctance to change.

 

and no, I’m not some tactical mall ninja guy.

 

i just think a WML is a much more practical, easy, cost efffective, real world solution than doing silly thing like flying wheel weights to mag base pads and such. That’s just silly to me personally. But to each their own, function over form. 
 

anyways, thanks for the replies, curious to hear others opinions 

[SGT_Schultz]

23 minutes ago, Blaize said:

and how can you make a blanket statement saying most everyone doesn’t carry a WML, most people I know do

 

You're making the same exact blanket statement that I made, just in the opposite direction.

 

I know no one personally that carriers a pistol with a light.  I've looked at the holsters of officers in my township police and deputies in my county.  They don't have WMLs.  Neither does the state highway patrol.

[Blaize]

2 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

You're making the same exact blanket statement that I made, just in the opposite direction.

 

I know no one personally that carriers a pistol with a light.  I've looked at the holsters of officers in my township police and deputies in my county.  They don't have WMLs.  Neither does the state highway patrol.

So because you said so first, I guess your right?

 All of the officers where I’m from carry lights, I carried a might myself on duty, it was required. Positive target identification, having two hands on the weapon instead of one, or freeing up a hand to do something else. 
 

not many disadvantages to one that I can see.

[RJH]

Lights (with or without batteries, i don't care) or bolt on weights SHOULD be legal in CO just like chopping the slide was legal before the weight limit change and still is.  Also it wouldn't be limited 10 as most people get 23 in their 140s.

 

I don't really care what cops use, i am looking at this from a purely sporting perspective.  Since there is a gun list for CO, and a weight limit that has nothing to do with the guns factory weight, worrying about how a person makes their gun heavier or lighter, seems kinda dumb.

 

 

[IVC]

50 minutes ago, Blaize said:

and I thought USPSA was for “practical shooting”

It is. You can shoot light in USPSA, you can shoot light with optics too...

[Blaize]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

Lights (with or without batteries, i don't care) or bolt on weights SHOULD be legal in CO just like chopping the slide was legal before the weight limit change and still is.  Also it wouldn't be limited 10 as most people get 23 in their 140s.

 

I don't really care what cops use, i am looking at this from a purely sporting perspective.  Since there is a gun list for CO, and a weight limit that has nothing to do with the guns factory weight, worrying about how a person makes their gun heavier or lighter, seems kinda dumb.

 

 

Exactly!

 

thats the other side of this that I didn’t articulate well in the OP. 
 

of all the silly things to do in order to add weight, the easiest, most practical, and cost effective way isn’t legal????? It doesn’t make any sense! Thanks for your perspective and putting into words the thoughts I didn’t! 

[IVC]

51 minutes ago, Blaize said:

hell, with a 59oz weight limit, isn’t it pretty much allready limited 10?

Major vs. minor and DA/DAO vs. SA...

 

C/O might allow weights in the future, that division has been evolving and changing capacity and other characteristics. Production needs to stay production-y in order to allow people to get into the sport and try it out. What's the problem with shooting lights in Open or weights in Limited? You can shoot the exact gun you'd like to shoot...

[Blaize]

Just now, IVC said:

It is. You can shoot light in USPSA, you can shoot light with optics too...

you sir are correct. But running them in production and CO make a lot more sense. 
 

why handicap the lighter polymer guns, the entry level guns most people have to get started ,before they want to spend 2.5k on. CZ AO1, so that your extra 5oz up front is the dust cover. Why not bolt a light on instead for 120 bucks and level the playing field a bit? I get it, you gotta pay to play, it’s the Indian not the arrow, all that good stuff. Don’t see many legit arguments against using one other than “but open and limited”!

[Blaize]

1 minute ago, IVC said:

Major vs. minor and DA/DAO vs. SA...

 

C/O might allow weights in the future, that division has been evolving and changing capacity and other characteristics. Production needs to stay production-y in order to allow people to get into the sport and try it out. What's the problem with shooting lights in Open or weights in Limited? You can shoot the exact gun you'd like to shoot...

the point is to shoot the light in minor divisions to level the playing field a bit in regards to the 59oz limit.

[SGT_Schultz]

11 minutes ago, Blaize said:

the point is to shoot the light in minor divisions to level the playing field a bit in regards to the 59oz limit.

 

The playing field is pretty level if you have a decent grip.

[Blaize]

17 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The playing field is pretty level if you have a decent grip.

because that’s why everyone is running 45+ oz guns.... I’m not disagreeing with you on that point, my grip personally isn’t the issue, might not be for you either, but for many others it is, especially newcomers to the sport, where these two divisions are pretty much where they end up.

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, Blaize said:

Wow didn’t expect the quick replies and mostly one sided viewpoints. 
 

 

 

why don't you just hold your pistol like a grown-ass man? I'm not sure I see the point of extra weight in a minor gun. If the shooter is a little girl, the weight is really going to slow transitions, and if the shooter is not a little girl, the weight is totally unnecessary....

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Blaize said:

why handicap the lighter polymer guns, the entry level guns most people have to get started ,before they want to spend 2.5k on. CZ AO1, so that your extra 5oz up front is the dust cover. Why not bolt a light on instead for 120 bucks and level the playing field a bit? I get it, you gotta pay to play, it’s the Indian not the arrow, all that good stuff. Don’t see many legit arguments against using one other than “but open and limited”!

 

 I actually think it would be a good idea to allow weights, because it would distract people from actually learning to shoot, which would benefit me.

[ima45dv8]

Blaise, I think we get where you're coming at this from. But just because you know a number of people, both LEO and non-LEO who carry weapons mounted lights (for illumination or extra weight doesn't matter), it doesn't mean it's appropriate, or should be for USPSA Production division. Production has a 10 round limit, right? Do these folks you know (both LEO and non-LEO) restrict their carry out to 10 rounds? I doubt it. I wouldn't.

 

There are places within this sport where they can utilize their normal configuration without the need to alter the existing, established divisions. Whether they feel competitive in that arena or not shouldn't really be a big consideration, if they're really just wanting to test their carry gear. 

 

And if that's what they want to do. . .getting trigger time with their choice of gear, does it matter how competitive they are? If place-of-finish is actually  their goal, then someone is blowing smoke up your pant leg. 

[DKnoch]

 
 I actually think it would be a good idea to allow weights, because it would distract people from actually learning to shoot, which would benefit me.

That’s already a thing with the 59 oz/kg/lbs/tons weight limit (or whatever it is nowadays), thumb rests, and whatever other things are allowed (or will be soon enough)


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[usmc1974]

10 hours ago, Blaize said:

i just feel like WMLs are more standard instead of exception these days, it reflects a little more how people run their weapons on duty/carry.

Yeah but, using that same argument you could ask why isn't a 15 round mags allowed in production these days cuz that's how real life Duty Carry is.

    I carry a Glock 19 concealed with a Holosun 507c and a 15-round plus one in the Chamber magazine. Just saying

Edited July 21, 2020 by usmc1974

[RangerTrace]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

Lights (with or without batteries, i don't care) or bolt on weights SHOULD be legal in CO just like chopping the slide was legal before the weight limit change and still is.  Also it wouldn't be limited 10 as most people get 23 in their 140s.

 

I don't really care what cops use, i am looking at this from a purely sporting perspective.  Since there is a gun list for CO, and a weight limit that has nothing to do with the guns factory weight, worrying about how a person makes their gun heavier or lighter, seems kinda dumb.

 

 

I agree.  I read where guys are using tungsten putty to make their guns heavier!?!  If that is legal, adding a 3 ounces light should certainly be legal.  Both USPSA and IDPA have some rules that make you shake your head.  FWIW, weapon mounted lights are pretty much the norm around here.

[Blaize]

7 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

why don't you just hold your pistol like a grown-ass man? I'm not sure I see the point of extra weight in a minor gun. If the shooter is a little girl, the weight is really going to slow transitions, and if the shooter is not a little girl, the weight is totally unnecessary....

my man, I don’t have a problem with grip, I have a 550-600 lb deadlift without using any nonsense straps. This isn’t just about ME.

 

1 hour ago, usmc1974 said:

Yeah but, using that same argument you could ask why isn't a 15 round mags allowed in production these days cuz that's how real life Duty Carry is.

    I carry a Glock 19 concealed with a Holosun 507c and a 15-round plus one in the Chamber magazine. Just saying

 

completely agree, we have to keep production 10 rounds because of community it’s states... it’s dumb!

 

2 hours ago, DKnoch said:

That’s already a thing with the 59 oz/kg/lbs/tons weight limit (or whatever it is nowadays), thumb rests, and whatever other things are allowed (or will be soon enough)


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1 hour ago, RangerTrace said:

I agree.  I read where guys are using tungsten putty to make their guns heavier!?!  If that is legal, adding a 3 ounces light should certainly be legal.  Both USPSA and IDPA have some rules that make you shake your head.  FWIW, weapon mounted lights are pretty much the norm around here.

These guys get it. A lot of the USPSA rules are just downright silly! Gas pedals on a production gun that weighs 45+ oz ????? Really? That’s what production and carry optics division was intended for? 

[Racinready300ex]

I certainly think someone could make a case for it in CO. We are already running dots, and we're allowed 59 oz. Who cares what you bolt on your gun at this point really. More and more people are starting to run dots on carry guns, same with flashlights. Look at any of the social media groups for plastic guns. You'll see lots of pictures of guys guns they've never shot in competition and they'll be sporting thumb rests, flashlights and red dots. USPSA seems to want to make the game more accessible to those guys so why not?

 

If you really want it, you need to make a case to your Area Director and have it brought up at the next board meeting.

[MemphisMechanic]

@Blaize the reason they do not allow it is that when you permit something in a division like this, you are effectively requiring that thing. Assuming it’s something which provides a significant performance advantage, and 4-6oz of weight up front under the muzzle very much is.

 

We already have enough gear to sling around, and enough money to spend on the sport.

 

And yes, production and carry optics guns have strayed hilariously far from any application of the word practical. But just because the current administration messed that up doesn’t mean we need to push the equipment race even further.

 

Edited July 21, 2020 by MemphisMechanic