Why not allow a weapon mounted light in production/carry optics?

[AverageJoeShooting]

10 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said:

@RJH If you look at what the number they chose, we don’t have a weight limit.

 

They simply moved it so high that only an idiot would make their mousefart 9mm gun weigh more than most Limited & Open gun builds, effectively deleting it.

 

However, as the sudden appearance of heavy brass grips for the perfectly balanced Shadow 2 has proven... never underestimate what idiots will do.

 

My open gun is 55 oz. Just saying

[AverageJoeShooting]

9 hours ago, Blaize said:

man, glad your making assumptions about me, when you don’t even know me!

 

who the hell is Lucas Botkin? 
 

and it sounds like your butthurt because someone probably spanked your ass more than a few times running a Glock 34 with a light out of a safariland duty holster .

 

im not a “tactical” guy at all.

 

this sort of thing is what keeps some really great people out of the sport, people like you with your elitist attitude. 
 

I see many parallels here within the weightlifting community. Powerlifters,crossfitters, and bodybuilders all hate each other.

 

and about compensators, the only place I’ve seen them is on stupid ass open guns that are the most ridiculous pistol I’ve ever seen! No use for it outside of the game, but hey if that’s your thing go for it!

flexin on poors is what i use my open gun for outside of comp

 

[AverageJoeShooting]

8 hours ago, Blaize said:

this right here, it was all about the weight, not having an actual light for any purpose or a laser.

 

it seems we have really stirred up some feelings in here. I do appreciate everyone’s opinions and input though. Wether we all agree, or agree to disagree, it’s a healthy discussion.

Why does L10 exist if production can only have ten rounds? why are rifles allowed at pistol matches? why does CO exist if its just poverty open? these are questions i ask myself. Ive never asked myself if i thought weapon lights should be allowed. Theres already a division that allows weight on the front of the barrel and its open

[Blaize]

9 hours ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

Why does L10 exist if production can only have ten rounds? why are rifles allowed at pistol matches? why does CO exist if its just poverty open? these are questions i ask myself. Ive never asked myself if i thought weapon lights should be allowed. Theres already a division that allows weight on the front of the barrel and its open

L10 exists because of communist states, as does the 10 round limit for production. 
 

production/CO allow weight up front on the pistol, but for some reason you have to pay an unreasonable amount of money for it IE: CZ and Sig.

 

so I guess it’s OK to have it as long as one of the big sponsors says it’s ok? A *thumb rest [generic]* is OK? A tungsten guide rod, brass grip panels, slide lightening, all that stuff is fine. But using some common sense and running a light up front for 5 extra oz on a 26 oz pistol!? Out of the question sacrilege! Yeah you can shoot it that was in open at a severe points disadvantage shooting minor, but why? Who the hell wants to do that? 
 

I love the argument you all present “because rules”. You all act like the rules have never changed in this sport and it shouldn’t evolve. Like I said before, this is why the sport isn’t growing like it should.

[waktasz]

It's ok to have as long as the gun comes that way from the factory. There are plenty of metal framed guns out there to choose from if weight is what you're worried about.

The thumbrest thing is dumb but at least it sort of follows the logic that you're allowed to replace small parts as long as the gun still fits the box. Would a glock fit the Production box with a light on it?

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, waktasz said:

It's ok to have as long as the gun comes that way from the factory.

Guns don't come from the factory with milled slides to make weight, but that has been deemed ok in the past, and nonfactory slide milling is still ok , along with a multitude of other non factory accessories.  So "must be from the factory"  is non a valid/consistent argument

 

There are plenty of metal framed guns out there to choose from if weight is what you're worried about.

And all of these guns can have their weight added to by bolt on nonfactory parts like grips, forcing a guy to buy a new rig and blaster when there is a cheap way that gives no competitive advantage to other guns in the division  seems dumb, and has no logical reasoning behind it.  

 

The thumbrest thing is dumb but at least it sort of follows the logic that you're allowed to replace small parts as long as the gun still fits the box. Would a glock fit the Production box with a light on it?                             

I don't have a box in front of me, but the lights/weights are fairly slim and if a gun with a thumbrest sticking out the slide fits the box, chances are good that a light/weight would too

 

 

All my comments are directed at CO division, i haven't considered production at all in this thread, just wanted to clarify. 

[Racinready300ex]

29 minutes ago, waktasz said:

It's ok to have as long as the gun comes that way from the factory. There are plenty of metal framed guns out there to choose from if weight is what you're worried about.

The thumbrest thing is dumb but at least it sort of follows the logic that you're allowed to replace small parts as long as the gun still fits the box. Would a glock fit the Production box with a light on it?

 

What if I use a small flashlight? I bet a small light would fit the box. 

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Blaize said:

L10 exists because of communist states, as does the 10 round limit for production. 
 

 

If that is the case, why isn't there Open-10, CO-10, and PCC-10? Why just Limited 10. 

 

There is no real reason for L-10 to exist, other then a good place to hide.

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If that is the case, why isn't there Open-10, CO-10, and PCC-10? Why just Limited 10. 

 

There is no real reason for L-10 to exist, other then a good place to hide.

 

L10 and the production 10 round rule are a result of the Brady bill which was in effect when they were introduced.  IDK why USPSA never adopted an Open 10, but they didn't.  L10 doesn't have a reason to exist anymore, other than it is a good place for a lot of guns that don't fit anywhere else, but if it wasn't here i don't think many tears would be shed

[motosapiens]

13 hours ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

My open gun is 55 oz. Just saying

what's your current classification? How do you finish in  major matches?

[motosapiens]

22 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If that is the case, why isn't there Open-10, CO-10, and PCC-10? Why just Limited 10. 

 

There is no real reason for L-10 to exist, other then a good place to hide.

when I see someone shooting L10 around here, it is generally for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. shooter likes shooting a 1911, but realizes that most stage designers are making stages that are stupid and annoying for 8 round guns.

2. shooter carries a 40 or 45 double-stack auto at work and wants to shoot his duty gun.

 

I fall into the first category from time to time. If I'm on a single-stack kick but get to a match and see the stages are stupid (unloaded start followed by 8 round arrays of mini-poppers, for example), I just dig out my 10 round mags and switch to L10.

[Racinready300ex]

17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

what's your current classification? How do you finish in  major matches?

 

I don't have one, but I would imagine the Atlas Chaos has to be up in the 50+ oz range. They have a full dust cover, steel grip, and steel magwell, bull barrel etc. Lots of guys run those around here. I know one local GM that runs one, I think he's won some majors. There are also a few Masters. Since that apparently matters. 

 

Lots of limited guns are in the 50 oz range, before you put 8-9 oz of ammo in the mags. 

 

13 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

2. shooter carries a 40 or 45 double-stack auto at work and wants to shoot his duty gun.

 

unless he has a light on that duty gun, then he's shooting Open. And if not, I'm sure he'd be fine in Limited. 

 

The random guy that wants to shoot L10 by himself to avoid 8 round arrays could also just shoot Limited IMO. Sure you can't win the division, but is winning L10 really winning?

Edited July 22, 2020 by Racinready300ex

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If that is the case, why isn't there Open-10, CO-10, and PCC-10? Why just Limited 10. 

 

There is no real reason for L-10 to exist, other then a good place to hide.

Exactly.  The ban states and Canada run everything at 10 rounds without needing special divisions to tell them so. 

 

I still want production and carry optics at 15 rounds.  Reloading 2-3 times instead of once is a non issue except for those who won't spend 30 min a week working on reloads during dry fire.

[SGT_Schultz]

58 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

L10 and the production 10 round rule are a result of the Brady bill which was in effect when they were introduced.  IDK why USPSA never adopted an Open 10, but they didn't.  L10 doesn't have a reason to exist anymore, other than it is a good place for a lot of guns that don't fit anywhere else, but if it wasn't here i don't think many tears would be shed

There's also no reason any more for production to have a national 10 round limit either.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

when I see someone shooting L10 around here, it is generally for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. shooter likes shooting a 1911, but realizes that most stage designers are making stages that are stupid and annoying for 8 round guns.

2. shooter carries a 40 or 45 double-stack auto at work and wants to shoot his duty gun.

 

I fall into the first category from time to time. If I'm on a single-stack kick but get to a match and see the stages are stupid (unloaded start followed by 8 round arrays of mini-poppers, for example), I just dig out my 10 round mags and switch to L10.

 

 

Yep

 

Also in my local matches no one shoots production or single stack, but there is always a couple of people shooting l10. And since my local club gives a coupon if you win your division with 3 or more shooters in it, might as well shoot l10 so someone gets a coupon. Instead of shooting ss or production by yourself and no one getting a coupon haha.

 

I always liked l10 and used to shoot it a bunch. But back then more people shot it. Its a great place for trying carry guns so you don't have worry about holster positions,  also great for guns like beretta 96s and other 12 round 40s and single stack 45s that are not 1911s, and 1911s too. But most people are not interested in that stuff so l10 kinda sucks anymore because of lack of competition,  but not because of the division itself. 

[IVC]

3 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Exactly.  The ban states and Canada run everything at 10 rounds without needing special divisions to tell them so. 

The ban states most certainly don't run everything at the ban-limit. Old magazines are grandfathered in (let's not get too much into this in a public forum, though).

 

L10 works well for new shooters. It's what I shot until I found a way to legally have the standard magazines. I live in CA, the second dumbest gun state...

[IVC]

3 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

There's also no reason any more for production to have a national 10 round limit either.

And we should get rid of that 140/170 artificial limit. PCC magazines for everyone! Yay! Also, why even have divisions? Everyone shoots what they brung (sic)...

 

/sarcasm

[IVC]

4 hours ago, motosapiens said:

when I see someone shooting L10 around here, it is generally for 1 of 2 reasons:

1. shooter likes shooting a 1911, but realizes that most stage designers are making stages that are stupid and annoying for 8 round guns.

2. shooter carries a 40 or 45 double-stack auto at work and wants to shoot his duty gun.

You live in a free state, so if you add a third point, legal magazine restrictions, that about covers L10.

 

This thread descended into division wars, so we just need to bring in STI vs. SVI, 9 mm vs. 45 ACP and USPSA vs. IDPA and we just about violated all the forum rules. Oh, and we can add a few political statements to spice it up...

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, IVC said:

The ban states most certainly don't run everything at the ban-limit. Old magazines are grandfathered in (let's not get too much into this in a public forum, though).

 

L10 works well for new shooters. It's what I shot until I found a way to legally have the standard magazines. I live in CA, the second dumbest gun state...

 

I'm pretty sure NY and NJ everything is 10. But they are ban states. You're not exactly banned, more like restricted. I'm in MD, we're restricted but we can still own hi-cap mags and shoot them in matches. We just can't buy/sell/transfer them inside of the state.

 

1 minute ago, IVC said:

And we should get rid of that 140/170 artificial limit. PCC magazines for everyone! Yay! Also, why even have divisions? Everyone shoots what they brung (sic)...

 

/sarcasm

 

Back in the day there were no divisions, so it was basically run what ya brung 

[usmc1974]

16 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm pretty sure NY and NJ everything is 10. But they are ban states. You're not exactly banned, more like restricted. I'm in MD, we're restricted but we can still own hi-cap mags and shoot them in matches. We just can't buy/sell/transfer them inside of the state.

 

 

Back in the day there were no divisions, so it was basically run what ya brung 

Hell yeah I'm with you man,  in back in 1980 we all run 1911. If we were lucky, we found some 8 round mag from Wilson or somebody, but that was it a couple guys run 38 supper's with the single-port compensator, maybe 9  rounds but s*** , ipsc was a blast you come you laugh you shot and you tried to win. And compared to today's rulebook it was anorexic. I don't know what happened but maybe somebody can explain it to me

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The random guy that wants to shoot L10 by himself to avoid 8 round arrays could also just shoot Limited IMO. Sure you can't win the division, but is winning L10 really winning?

 

meh. winning a local match isn't really 'winning'. with only 40-70 shooters total, I have to look at the overall to get an idea of how it went.

[AverageJoeShooting]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

what's your current classification? How do you finish in  major matches?

Just hit B class. Only been shooting about 4 months. Never did a major match...mostly because I dont care.

[AverageJoeShooting]

7 hours ago, Blaize said:

L10 exists because of communist states, as does the 10 round limit for production. 
 

production/CO allow weight up front on the pistol, but for some reason you have to pay an unreasonable amount of money for it IE: CZ and Sig.

 

so I guess it’s OK to have it as long as one of the big sponsors says it’s ok? A *thumb rest [generic]* is OK? A tungsten guide rod, brass grip panels, slide lightening, all that stuff is fine. But using some common sense and running a light up front for 5 extra oz on a 26 oz pistol!? Out of the question sacrilege! Yeah you can shoot it that was in open at a severe points disadvantage shooting minor, but why? Who the hell wants to do that? 
 

I love the argument you all present “because rules”. You all act like the rules have never changed in this sport and it shouldn’t evolve. Like I said before, this is why the sport isn’t growing like it should.

Frankly I'm in the camp that says co is stupid and so is pcc lol

 

Rules arnt there to be changed!

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

Rules arnt there to be changed!

 

You've only been shooting 4 months and already have a better handle on this stuff the HQ. lol.

 

Also, I thought CO was dumb too back when it was meant to be Prod-Optics. Now days it's booming, around here it's the only division with any heat and soon will probably be the biggest division in the game. 

[AverageJoeShooting]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You've only been shooting 4 months and already have a better handle on this stuff the HQ. lol.

 

Also, I thought CO was dumb too back when it was meant to be Prod-Optics. Now days it's booming, around here it's the only division with any heat and soon will probably be the biggest division in the game. 

Yea i mean it makes uspsa huge money because its basically poverty open. It gives people a chance to go fast with a red dot without spending 5k on an open gun.