Why not allow a weapon mounted light in production/carry optics?

[Balakay]

1 minute ago, waktasz said:

Better yet, take 30 seconds to take the light off your gun.

 

I'm not sure what it is about this sport that makes people like this. It's not like people roll into an SCCA event and they are like yea bro, it's stock, ignore the aftermarket wheels, brakes and boost controller, that's how me and my boys all run.

Exactly..  Don't like the rules of the game, find something else.  Or get on the BOD and make changes

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, Balakay said:

Just shoot Open. These threads suck (but I can't look away!) 

 

The problem with saying just shoot open, is that what was happening when Carry Ops was being debated as a division at all. I was in that camp, and I was wrong. Carry Ops is huge, and only getting bigger. There's no logical reasoning presented so far in this thread to disallow a weight in carry Ops. Only emotional responses, which is the same kind that say just go shoot open. I do agree that going to the b o d is the best idea, however.

[usmc1974]

4 minutes ago, Blaize said:

about compensators, the only place I’ve seen them is on stupid ass open guns that are the most ridiculous pistol I’ve ever seen! No use for it outside of the game, but hey if that’s your thing go for it!

Personally I think those open guns with the compensators and the Red Dot Scopes and the 28/30 round magazines are beautiful, pure works of art. But like you they're not my Cup of tea. They take more attention and tuning/care then I care to give. I can take my Glock 19 with my little 507c red dot sight and blast all day what's a 23 round mag I can have fun.but it is all good.

[Balakay]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

The problem with saying just shoot open, is that what was happening when Carry Ops was being debated as a division at all. I was in that camp, and I was wrong. Carry Ops is huge, and only getting bigger. There's no logical reasoning presented so far in this thread to disallow a weight in carry Ops. Only emotional responses, which is the same kind that say just go shoot open. I do agree that going to the b o d is the best idea, however.

I hear what you are saying and I am inclined to agree.  However, games have rules.  Is there a logical reason supporting holster or mag pouch location in CO?  

[Matt1911]

I used to chase all the latest new gadgets and gear to try to gain any sort of advantage I possibly could, but after all the money spent and effort trying to be competitive, I finally came to realize that it has become more of a job than it is a fun weekend sport. 

Using that money for ammo and practicing with what I have on hand has helped me more than any gadget. 

[Blaize]

15 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

The problem with saying just shoot open, is that what was happening when Carry Ops was being debated as a division at all. I was in that camp, and I was wrong. Carry Ops is huge, and only getting bigger. There's no logical reasoning presented so far in this thread to disallow a weight in carry Ops. Only emotional responses, which is the same kind that say just go shoot open. I do agree that going to the b o d is the best idea, however.

good post!

 

15 minutes ago, usmc1974 said:

Personally I think those open guns with the compensators and the Red Dot Scopes and the 28/30 round magazines are beautiful, pure works of art. But like you they're not my Cup of tea. They take more attention and tuning/care then I care to give. I can take my Glock 19 with my little 507c red dot sight and blast all day what's a 23 round mag I can have fun.but it is all good.

 I agree and respect your opinion. I was being a little sarcastic in my reply. If someone wants one of those guns, that’s cool, to each their own.

 

no one is trying to change the rules to fit an “ideal gun” by wanting to run a light in a 26 oz gun to help with the muzzle flip a little.

 

Companies like Sig, CZ, and Walther has allready done that by producing these heavy competition specific guns. And the rules change because of the sponsorships and all the money they throw at the sport.

 

so how if this any different, than wanting to change the rules to allow a little weight up front in the form of a light? They have allready made these guns and have altered the vision of these two divisions significantly. And people are buying them up left and right, so obviously there is interest in it. 

[waktasz]

The rules didn't have to change for any of those guns to be made and be legal. They just had to make enough of them. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by waktasz

[Blaize]

So your saying prior to the weight limit change in CO, I could take a shadow two milled for a dot from the factory, bolt a dot in it and make weight?????

 

also, what do you have to say about the gas pedals that are allowed? How is that any different from a compensator ?

Edited July 21, 2020 by Blaize

[Blaize]

9 minutes ago, waktasz said:

The rules didn't have to change for any of those guns to be made and be legal. They just had to make enough of them. 

 sorry meant to quote your post above, this whole forum things owns me

Edited July 21, 2020 by Blaize

[Boomstick303]

The interesting part about the question in the OP is this.  Why?  One can turn the question around in the OP.  Why do you feel the need to run an WML in a USPSA match?  USPSA rule sets are not designed around what anyone "carries".  That is blatantly obvious with the inclusion of open class.  If you want to shoot what you carry, is that not what IDPA for?  Should this be a question for their rule sets, not USPSA?  The other point is no one is stopping anyone from shooting a USPSA match with a light mounted to your pistol or from shooting what you carry.  You can.  If standings and scores matter to you then play within the rule set, or contact the USPSA to get them to change the rules.  Is playing by the rules mindset an "emotional response"?

Edited July 21, 2020 by Boomstick303

[waktasz]

10 minutes ago, Blaize said:

So your saying prior to the weight limit change in CO, I could take a shadow two milled for a dot from the factory, bolt a dot in it and make weight?????

 

also, what do you have to say about the gas pedals that are allowed? How is that any different from a compensator ?

 

I was talking about Production. Shadow 2 could make it but it was close and you had to mess around with plastic guide rods or grips, etc. 

[IVC]

One additional note - lasers are lights too. That in itself is a good reason to keep them out of Production (and other iron divisions such as Limited). 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Balakay said:

I hear what you are saying and I am inclined to agree.  However, games have rules.  Is there a logical reason supporting holster or mag pouch location in CO?  

 

Holsters and mag pouch location is equal across anyone shooting carry Ops so that is not a reasonable comparison, more of a straw man argument. Gun weight varies greatly, and heavy guns are allowed to chop slides and such to be made lighter. For equity allowing guns to add weight is completely reasonable and in line (though not allowed) with the rules already printed. Some guns can bolt on heavy grips bolting on a frame weight is essentially the same thing. Whether or not that's necessary is debatable, but not allowing plastic guns to bolt on a weight is not reasonably supportable 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, waktasz said:

The rules didn't have to change for any of those guns to be made and be legal. They just had to make enough of them. 

 

Except for the 2 times they already have, I am speaking of CO

[motosapiens]

51 minutes ago, Blaize said:

also, what do you have to say about the gas pedals that are allowed? How is that any different from a compensator ?

 

compensators actually work on major guns.

 

gas pedals on minor guns are at best an indexing aid, and mostly a placebo imho. With a plastic minor gun, a normal male can literally pull the trigger as fast as he can pull it and keep the sights in the a-zone at 7-10 yards the entire time.

[RJH]

22 minutes ago, IVC said:

One additional note - lasers are lights too. That in itself is a good reason to keep them out of Production (and other iron divisions such as Limited). 

 

I get your reasoning with a projected beam, but the OP was really about the weight aspect so the projected beam position is really outside of this subject and just a deflection.  

[RJH]

49 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

The interesting part about the question in the OP is this.  Why?  One can turn the question around in the OP.  Why do you feel the need to run an WML in a USPSA match?  USPSA rule sets are not designed around what anyone "carries".  That is blatantly obvious with the inclusion of open class.  If you want to shoot what you carry, is that not what IDPA for?  Should this be a question for their rule sets, not USPSA?  The other point is no one is stopping anyone from shooting a USPSA match with a light mounted to your pistol or from shooting what you carry.  You can.  If standings and scores matter to you then play within the rule set, or contact the USPSA to get them to change the rules.  Is playing by the rules mindset an "emotional response"?

 

While the op was more about weight than the light aspect, one could argue that carry ops is exactly about what people carry. I mean they wrote that since Ops was in the name, you had to have an optic on your gun to shoot that first Nationals. Maybe since carry is in the name, the gun should be something like you carry. I disagree with that  however, just like I disagree that penalizing light guns by not allowing wait / lights is dumb. Basically forcing people to shoot a different gun if they want a gun with more weight instead of allowing the simple addition of a weighted light. But that is just reason and logic

[usmc1974]

4 minutes ago, RJH said:

 heavy guns are allowed to chop slides and such to be made lighter. For equity allowing guns to add weight is completely reasonable and in line (though not allowed) with the rules already printed. 

I see what you're saying, and it's just not very fair is it? I figure some Gun Company Palm greasing!!!  is required by the USPSA.

[IVC]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I get your reasoning with a projected beam, but the OP was really about the weight aspect so the projected beam position is really outside of this subject and just a deflection.  

OP's primary argument is that people carry lights. Weight was an (intended) unintended consequence... If we change the premise of this thread to "Why not allow extra weight in Production/CO" then we have a completely different discussion.

[IVC]

14 minutes ago, RJH said:

While the op was more about weight than the light aspect, one could argue that carry ops is exactly about what people carry.

True, and we are likely to see lights allowed in CO at some point. Just not in Production. 

[Boomstick303]

5 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 Basically forcing people to shoot a different gun if they want a gun with more weight instead of allowing the simple addition of a weighted light. But that is just reason and logic

 

But that is just reason and logic?  Really?  No one is forcing anyone to shoot another gun.  We are talking about shooting minor 9 mm correct?  If the whole point of the post adding a light for weight to what means?  Minimize muzzle flip?  Some on hear suggest that muzzle flip is not an issue but also indicate they want to add a light to minimize muzzle flip?  I am confused.    I see plenty of people shooting plastic guns in Carry Optics and Production fast enough without the aid of weight added to the gun.  So what are we really talking about here?  To me it seems "I want to shoot a match with a light on it".  No one is stopping you.  Have at it.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, IVC said:

OP's primary argument is that people carry lights. Weight was an (intended) unintended consequence... If we change the premise of this thread to "Why not allow extra weight in Production/CO" then we have a completely different discussion.

 

While he was speaking of a light , he even said if you had to stuff it with brass or something that would be fine. And he mentioned it adding weight on the lighter guns. I saw nothing on the op suggesting that he wanted to use a projected beam for shooting. He only mentioned that people do actually carry guns with lights on them oh, and that was another reason that allowing them didn't seem way out of hand. But the basis of the O P was about adding weight, not a projected beam

[Blaize]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

While he was speaking of a light , he even said if you had to stuff it with brass or something that would be fine. And he mentioned it adding weight on the lighter guns. I saw nothing on the op suggesting that he wanted to use a projected beam for shooting. He only mentioned that people do actually carry guns with lights on them oh, and that was another reason that allowing them didn't seem way out of hand. But the basis of the O P was about adding weight, not a projected beam

this right here, it was all about the weight, not having an actual light for any purpose or a laser.

 

it seems we have really stirred up some feelings in here. I do appreciate everyone’s opinions and input though. Wether we all agree, or agree to disagree, it’s a healthy discussion.

Edited July 21, 2020 by Blaize

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

But that is just reason and logic?  Really?  No one is forcing anyone to shoot another gun.  We are talking about shooting minor 9 mm correct?  If the whole point of the post adding a light for weight to what means?  Minimize muzzle flip?  Some on hear suggest that muzzle flip is not an issue but also indicate they want to add a light to minimize muzzle flip?  I am confused.    I see plenty of people shooting plastic guns in Carry Optics and Production fast enough without the aid of weight added to the gun.  So what are we really talking about here?  To me it seems "I want to shoot a match with a light on it".  No one is stopping you.  Have at it.

 

We're going to talk logic here for a minute. First you have to ask yourself is it logical to allow one particular type of gun in the same division to be able to add bolt on weight in the form of grips, yet not allow another gun a form of bolt on weight? I don't think it is, bolt on weight is bolt on weight.

 

You also have to ask yourself is it logical to keep raising weight limits to allow particular guns in which in many people's veiw put other guns at a disadvantage. I mean everyone is not like Max Michelle and has a gun company to build him a frame filled with tungsten. Also everyone is not like Tang folio and can apparently get the weight limit  bumped to allow their gun in or was it CZ I can't remember.

 

Then you have to ask yourself is allowing a plastic gun to add a light/weight going to put them at a competitive advantage over any other gun in the division. I say it's not, many on here would argue you don't need one. Makes me wonder what guns they're shooting though....

 

Also the "no one's stopping you from shooting with a  dot on your gun" was an argument originally against Carry Ops. That arguments been proven Wrong by the success of Carrie Ops. And that argument is wrong now too

 

 

[Bayou]

RJH....Bingo