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2020 PCC Nationals Feedback

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Posted (edited)

Just finished shooting the 2020 PCC Nationals.

 

I’m going to do a pro/con list and list recommended changes for my cons.  
 

Pros:

 

RO’s (for the most part) and RM knew the rules. 
 

Longer distance targets were a smart move, it brought out the strengths of pcc and made a match that would have been very difficult for a pistol to compete in.

 

Super squad was cool, almost too chill.  But they are so important in and to a competition like this.  I’ll explain more on this in the cons section.

 

Competition was close -

 

If I had kept my same time, but cut down my charlies and mikes to a more experienced level (Very little ammo and time to practice pcc this year) - I would have been looking at around 10th place.  

 

If I had gotten rid of my ammo and distance related missteps as well as cut my charlies and mikes, 3rd would have been obtainable.

 

Chrono was slightly optimistic.  No point in sending anyone home if their ammo is close.

 

Free lunch both days and free dinner at awards.

 

Prizes in order of finish only were a smart choice since classifications can be gamed so easily.  Prize quality for mid pack finishers was ok, I finished 34th out of 266 and had a choice between a $500 Berrys Bullets cert, a Ruger Security 9 with Tandemkross gear, and a Vortex Razor red dot.  I think that’s fair.

 

Cons (most important first):

 

1. Prizes for top quality finishers were garbage.


If you are in the top 5 at one of the biggest competitions in the country (involved with a $50 billion dollar industry) - you should be going home with more than a $2400 gun.

Big prizes are huge attractants for new competitors and for media coverage.  They build both the size of an industry and RESPECT for an industry which would otherwise not be taken seriously in a capitalist economy.

 

Our competitions being taken more seriously and attracting more people would be of huge benefit for us and the firearms industry as a whole.

 

The video game industry is $25 billion dollars and they understand the need for one million + dollar prizes at competitions where competitors shoot at and kill lifelike representations of real people (which should be MUCH more controversial than anything happening in our legitimate sport with truly elite level competitors, many of whom have actually been in or are in legitimate service roles for our country).


This lack of award for our best achievers is partially our own fault for not demanding more respect from the firearms industry - even though competitive shooters are responsible for what is likely over a BILLION dollars in revenue for the firearms industry.  (Not just in equipment, ammunition, and firearms sales, but also with the 10’s of millions of people watching shooting competitions and videos of related equipment on Youtube and other venues)
 

However, no one that I know of in the competitive shooting industry has even had the foresight to take an economic impact measure of competitive shooting and use that to justify their position to the big players in our industry.

 

USPSA needs to stop using their $4 million dollar revenue stream on maintaining their base and start using it on real, noticeable growth if we expect our children to want to and be able to compete in this legitimate sport someday (and with the same equipment we are using)

 

When I go to a gun store, how come I never see a poster advertising USPSA?  When I buy a gun specifically made for the sport (Shadow 2, Stock II, MPX PCC, Glock 34, Walther q5 Match, ETC.), how come I never see a pamphlet advertising USPSA in the gun case?

 

Why is the magazine generated by the organization only available to people who are ALREADY members?

 

These are big, organizational issues that need to be tackled if we expect our sport to have a more noticeable and beneficial impact on our country.

 

They all start with justifying the quality of our sport and they all build by offering prizes that people actually feel the need to win, no matter what else in life they may be doing.

 

I would gladly start working on what is needed to build this sport, if anyone from USPSA asked me to.  So far, it seems like the only organization with the right base idea of how to go about this is Area 2 - but even they are thinking small in my book.

 

2.  Stage 12 had 3 70+ yard metric targets and a 55+ yard metric swinger going fast.

 

I can support the long distance metric targets if there is a test fire bay that allows for checking zero at that range - longest they had was about 25.  Many people zero their pccs for 10- 20 yards.

 

I can never support the 55+ yard swinger.  I don’t know of anyone who fired two shots and got two hits - which means it wasn’t skill based.  The lead at 55 yards would change depending on the speed of the swinger and in general, this swinger was very fast.  There were locals who got to shoot it with a pcc prior to the match (they told me this), which is completely unfair since this particular match element was completely based on timing with your speed of ammo.  One person knew that with his 115 grain ammo, the lead on the first and second swings would be about 18 inches.  That means that many people with slower ammo could aim at the A zone, dead center, while it was swinging and mike the target.  


It was a spray and pray affair for every shooter I saw and it was not a “home field advantage.”

 

This would be like a football stadium having a point ring above the field that moves at different,  set speeds.  Throwing the ball through the ring means extra points, but the ring moves at different speeds at every stadium; so, only the home team knows the timing for the extra points.  It just doesn’t make sense.

 

The only possible way this could be close to fair is if the matchbook stated the distance of the swinger and the speed at which the swinger moves on its first swing.  That way, people could calculate their lead based on the speed of their ammo.

 

My suggestion for fixing this is expanding the shooting area so people can run closer to that swinger.  An easy fix for what would have otherwise been a large, cool stage.

 

3.  Stage 1 - the building.  The shooting area was outside of the building and not inside.  As a result of the bays facing east/west, people will have glare on their glasses in different areas and at different times of day (with the setting sun being the worst.)

 

Glare which makes it impossible to see a certain target inside of the dim building.

 

It’s rare, but it happened to more than one person.  It cost me two seconds on what would have otherwise been a single, easy to shoot target.

 

Easy fix for this also -
 

Shooting area inside building with some targets outside 

 

or

 

Put lights in the building so it isn’t so dark at certain times of the day.

 

 

Closing thought:

 

Just because something is good, doesn’t mean it can’t be incredible.  

Edited by Whoops!

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Just curious as to how many major matches you've built, done the prize table for, and run?

 

If you're only waiting for an invitation to start doing all of the above for Nationals consider this an invitation.

 

Nolan

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lemme get this straight, you shot a rifle at a rifle match and expected it to be a pistol match?

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I used to be pretty active here...many moons ago. Just checking in on Nationals stuff so i feel compelled to chime in. 

 

I'm all for your Billion dollar ideas. I say go for it, I'll help where and if I can. I used to think that way also, but you're missing the point that competition shooters are way less than one percent of the industry. But I still support your efforts should you make any. 

 

If you come to a National Match not zero'ed, that's on you. As you said most folks zero the PCC inside 25 and we had 25 available to confirm. That should be all you need. I run a 20 which matches up at 50 with my ammo. I know this as I've tested it. 

 

I own Universal Shooting Academy. I own that swinger. I built that stage. I don't know the speed of the swinger, it's for sure one of our slower ones. But having never in 20 years of shooting shot a 50 yard moving target with 9mm I know enough about ballistics that you probably couldn't aim at the A zone and hit the target with 9mm under 1000fps. 

 

I guarantee you not a single person shot that target with a PCC prior to the start of the staff match Thursday. Guaranf*#kingteed. So someone is lying. Your "locals" you didn't name, or you. 

 

Sorry you didn't finish 3rd. 

 

 

 

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OP, you shot a pretty solid match as I see it.  #30 something out of hundreds.  Good for you.  Seriously.  

 

Now get on to the realization that no match will ever satisfy every contestant/shooter.  You have great ideas and those match directors will gladly welcome your help next year.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SmittyFL said:

I used to be pretty active here...many moons ago. Just checking in on Nationals stuff so i feel compelled to chime in. 

 

I'm all for your Billion dollar ideas. I say go for it, I'll help where and if I can. I used to think that way also, but you're missing the point that competition shooters are way less than one percent of the industry. But I still support your efforts should you make any. 

 

If you come to a National Match not zero'ed, that's on you. As you said most folks zero the PCC inside 25 and we had 25 available to confirm. That should be all you need. I run a 20 which matches up at 50 with my ammo. I know this as I've tested it. 

 

I own Universal Shooting Academy. I own that swinger. I built that stage. I don't know the speed of the swinger, it's for sure one of our slower ones. But having never in 20 years of shooting shot a 50 yard moving target with 9mm I know enough about ballistics that you probably couldn't aim at the A zone and hit the target with 9mm under 1000fps. 

 

I guarantee you not a single person shot that target with a PCC prior to the start of the staff match Thursday. Guaranf*#kingteed. So someone is lying. Your "locals" you didn't name, or you. 

 

Sorry you didn't finish 3rd. 

 

 

 


 

You’re telling me the stage designers didn’t shoot that exact same swinger with a pcc at that distance prior to scored runs?


Besides Shannon, I used to see your posts a lot here.  Glad to bring you out of hiding.  😁

 

You’re the only person I’m responding to because some people here are seeing feedback with a few cons and forgetting the major pros exist.

 

Let’s be adults.

Edited by Whoops!

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What I took from this post was that if the prizes were better you would have tried harder and done better. Close enough?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Making up excuses as to why you should have been third when you actually finished 35th (Still awesome) is laughable. Everything that follows is just whimsical at best.

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It's tacky to play IF-SC out loud and in public.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

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I've shot at Frostproof a couple times. Matches were always very well run. In fact, 99% of the USPSA matches I've shot have all been well run. 

 

A cursory glance at a map would reveal that a particular range or individual bays might have a sunrise/sunset problem. Comes with the territory. 

 

If the complaints for a National Championship boil down to "the sun was in my eyes" and "one of the targets was REALLY hard" that is probably a sign of (yet another) good match. The prize table thing can, has been, and will be, debated ad nauseum. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, SmittyFL said:

 

I thought guaranf@(kinteed was pretty clear. But to answer your direct question, that is exactly what I'm telling you. I am the stage designer, I built it with basically one other guy, our employee. Had couple other dudes at the end nailing stuff down. 

 

It was in the multigun match the week prior. Different presentation but same distance. I missed it then also but with .223 from prone. 

 

I'm all for your other ideas, you find a way to get $10K to the winner and I'll help. 

 

But I take exception to anyone questioning the integrity of myself or the match. 

 


It just seemed weird that the target was at ~58 yards, which for an 1100 fps pcc would put the point of aim at edge of cardboard for an a-zone hit - but that no one has ever shot that swinger at that distance at Universal Shooting Academy prior to putting it on a stage for PCC Nationals.

 

It also seems weird that one of the group I was talking to with someone that had an oddly similar name to mine knew the lead was 18 inches for that speed of ammo, apparently without ever shooting it.

 

It’s just real odd.

 

Something just totally new at 2020 Nationals and which proved to be outside the consistent skills of every shooter there for 2 shots and 2 hits, was put in a stage without any testing.

 

I didn’t personally meet anyone who didn’t think that target was crazy, but USPSA matches don’t ask for neutral feedback from competitors yet - Even though most growth oriented industries do.

 

I’m not going to give help to a group of people who insult someone trying to give constructive feedback, but I will say this as a closing thought.

 

Can any industry show a direct ROI with commercials, or do they use marketing research and accepted calculations to prove the commercials worked?

 

After about two months of research, I could prove USPSA works to the major sporting goods franchises and have a whole new level of potential input for our sport.
 

But, I’d never be willing to start putting in that effort when the people organizing and working the matches don’t have respect for what they’re running and refer to it as a “hobby.”

 

Shannon is a good guy, I’ve always looked up to him as a shooter.  I can’t make the same statement about many other people in this thread.
 

As I said to begin with,

 

Just because something is good (in this case the 2020 PCC Nationals) doesn’t mean it can’t be incredible (in 2021).

 

 

Edited by Whoops!

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22 minutes ago, Whoops! said:


It just seemed weird that the target was at ~58 yards, which for an 1100 fps pcc would put the point of aim at edge of cardboard for an a-zone hit - but that no one has ever shot that swinger at that distance at Universal Shooting Academy prior to putting it on a stage for PCC Nationals.

 

It also seems weird that one of the group I was talking to with someone that had an oddly similar name to mine knew the lead was 18 inches for that speed of ammo, apparently without ever shooting it.

 

It’s just real odd.

 

Something just totally new at 2020 Nationals and which proved to be outside the consistent skills of every shooter there for 2 shots and 2 hits, was put in a stage without any testing.

 

I didn’t personally meet anyone who didn’t think that target was crazy, but USPSA matches don’t ask for neutral feedback from competitors yet - Even though most growth oriented industries do.

 

I welcome feedback from customers. If you question my integrity you damned bet I'm going to call you on it. Sounds like you're new to shooting at USA. We will test you and one of my goals is to present target presentations no one has ever seen. Not an easy goal, but a goal. 600yd steel at Multigun, don't think its been done before. 400yd paper at multigun, don't think its been done before. 52 yard swinger for PCC, don't think its been done before. Steel pendulum no shoots at LoCap, don't think its been done before.

 

How do you know an 1100 round is leading edge? Without knowing the speed of the swinger? Plus your distance is wrong. And I don't know the speed of the swinger.....so I'm highly doubting you do. 

 

I don't care what seems weird or odd to you. I'll extend to you my standing offer to anyone you may not be aware of. 12 days prior to a major you are welcome to come to the range and see what happens. Caveat is you have to do what I do....for all 12 days. I've yet to have a taker on the offer. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, SmittyFL said:

 

I welcome feedback from customers. If you question my integrity you damned bet I'm going to call you on it. Sounds like you're new to shooting at USA. We will test you and one of my goals is to present target presentations no one has ever seen. Not an easy goal, but a goal. 600yd steel at Multigun, don't think its been done before. 400yd paper at multigun, don't think its been done before. 52 yard swinger for PCC, don't think its been done before. Steel pendulum no shoots at LoCap, don't think its been done before.

 

How do you know an 1100 round is leading edge? Without knowing the speed of the swinger? Plus your distance is wrong. And I don't know the speed of the swinger.....so I'm highly doubting you do. 

 

I don't care what seems weird or odd to you. I'll extend to you my standing offer to anyone you may not be aware of. 12 days prior to a major you are welcome to come to the range and see what happens. Caveat is you have to do what I do....for all 12 days. I've yet to have a taker on the offer. 

 

 

 

 


 

Sounds good.  I’ll do it for Carry Optics/Production Nationals.  All 12 days and with the understanding that you are the boss, while I may occasionally make a suggestion, if you don’t like it I will immediately shutup.
 

 

15 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

Where do I begin? Such a long list of crap...

 

Your "help" is yet to materialize. You keep talking about it but Nothing happens. Wanna tell us again that you've stayed on the sidelines because you've "lost trust" in us? Cool.

 

Those of us who you think are a bag o' hot wind are classified (by you alone) as Toxic. Wanna do something about that? Then DO something! Your mouth ain't going to get it done here.

 

I guess in a red-hot minute you're going to be the next 90-day wonder to show us how to have Budweiser, CoCa-Cola and IBM as major sponsors for USPSA events. Nice! Then make it happen and get them to commit.  i swear if you can I'll get om my knees and beg your forgiveness. With VIDEO. 

 

Do a search on this forum for all of the ones who came before you with similar grandiose ideas for sponsorship. Clearly they didn't have your talent. But you do. Make it happen. 

 

 

BTW, it IS a hobby.

 

 

Regardless of how many matches you’ve organized, the mentality you’re touting is what has undermined everyone who’s tried to help get the major support for this sport.

 

I know better than to start down a path which will inevitably be undermined by those I’m trying to help.

 

That’s why I’m willing to do whatever I can for Shannon, but am stopping short of helping the organization as a whole.

Edited by Whoops!

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11 hours ago, SmittyFL said:

Caveat is you have to do what I do....for all 12 days. I've yet to have a taker on the offer. 

 

Well... Yuengling sucks so I can see why no one shows up.  🤣🤣🤣🤣

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Posted (edited)

35th is 35th, not 3rd with mistakes.

 

Prize tables in USPSA will never be 'good' in terms of monetary value because USPSA is a not marketable at all, there are no majors that focus on getting the public to see sponsors, its not a spectator sport, its a highly specialized game that the average gun owner can't partake in, and in terms of shooting/guns its basically trivial since NO ONE other than those who shoot it/their friends know about it.  

 

The only time I've seen 'high' dollar value things on the table is because its was someone directly related to this sport offering up a custom gun or some company that USPSA HQ negotiated a deal with.  If there were $2-3k guns on the prize table I would say that pretty good.

 

Also... 55yds swinger, with a rifle, Shannon always does something outrageously challenging that 'most' people get mikes on at all the matches at Universal.. so thats part for the course there. 

 

 

Edited by mikeg1005

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12 hours ago, SmittyFL said:

I don't care what seems weird or odd to you. I'll extend to you my standing offer to anyone you may not be aware of. 12 days prior to a major you are welcome to come to the range and see what happens. Caveat is you have to do what I do....for all 12 days. I've yet to have a taker on the offer. 


Hard pass on that brah. Knowing how much it takes from putting on locals, majors and Finales myself I'm continually impressed with your matches. I still don't know how y'all pulled off 9 Days in '18 but damn was that a fun time. I also love that you welcome and encourage feedback and actually implement it. I for one enjoyed the 52 yd swinger.

Great work again and hopefully we can shoot together soon at a match neither of us are working :) 

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The OP created a thread for feedback on the 2020 PCC Nationals. Let's keep it on track. And the personal crap has calmed, let's keep it that way! The general match stuff deserves it own thread or reviving one from the past...

 

Thanks!

 

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I personally believe the match went really well. After all, we were told that there would be some long range targets before it started so why didn't you figure out your dot before leaving home? The difference in arrival of a 115/125/150 grain bullet to the target at 60 yards is roughly 0.05 so I don't see this as a problem but ones just making excuses. I'm one with a problem because somehow either the temperature or elevation screwed with my offset leaving me with a ton of mikes on stage 12....my fault, not Smitty's.

 

Great things:

  • Stages flowed well, no real major backups. Adequate staff were on hand to ensure things were scored efficiently.
  • All props worked properly, no one had to deal with the reshoot gods of our squad
  • Stages were built and withstood the days without things breaking or fault lines pulling up. Stages that had ports that could get shot had supplies on hand to repair any shots before the next shooter
  • Plenty of water was on hand to keep hydrated
  • Prize table was good. Even guys finishing past 125 were able to get $150-200 worth of stuff. There's not a lot of things you can "play" and finish halfway back and still end up with something valuable. The winner of the 2020 Daytona 500 was about a $2M prize so if you figure in the $250-500K for the car plus paying for everyone to be on the team, hotel, travel, etc. that's not a lot of money to spread around. The top guys getting a $2500 gun...whether they use it or sell it that's not really any factor in as to whether they chose to shoot nationals
  • Food was GREAT

 

Improvements:

  • Left side of shoot house was badly rutted out by the end of day 1 squads. I don't know what it looked like on Thursday but regardless of whether it was a fairness issue or not, it certainly was a safety issue. 
  • Big Ass Fans (https://www.bigassfans.com/) installed under the shelter would go a long way to stirring up some air
  • Restrooms need more paper towel dispensers or just serviced more often. Several times I visited and there was no towels
  • Would like to see Steel Target Paint used instead of the cheap enamel
  • More parking inside the gates would be nice

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^ actual feedback ! Paper towels in the toilets will always be in demand, and it's tough keeping the toilets constantly clean from shooters who can't hit a bowl, let alone a target.

It's an Interesting thread.

OP can't shoot good enough and USPSA isn't organised enough to make sure there's pamphlets with new purchases. 


 

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Any further posts on Marketing USPSA go here:

 

Any further non-match-feedback posts here will likely be deleted and not moved because deleting is way easier for moderators...

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Kiwishoot said:



OP can't shoot good enough and USPSA isn't organised enough to make sure there's pamphlets with new purchases. 


 


Says the guy who wasn’t there, probably can’t shoot as well as me, and didn’t see that the 57 yard swinger was luck for everyone because no one (that I know of or spoke to) shot it twice with two shots?

 

It’s not a fair test of skill when it isn’t skill for anyone.

 

That’s the point here.  A lot of side bar from people who have no concept of stage design or the intent of major matches detracts from that.


 

When something moves at an unknown speed, it can’t be properly aimed for by anyone who hasn’t already had practice with that unknown speed.

 

 

The point for the prize table was moved.

 

I want to see new shooters legitimately competing at nationals each year.  We need higher top prizes to influence Americans to dedicate their time to do that.

 

 

By the way, my simple feedback thread for the 2020 Nationals is about to have more views in several days than any other topic made in this sub forum has had in the last two years.

 

 

Tell me I don’t know how to market - and then go check out the marketing thread the admin moved all the other posts into.

 

 

We need to fix USPSA’s appeal so our kids can do it someday.

Edited by Whoops!

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As we said above, this thread is for feedback on the 2020 PCC Nationals. Any more non-relevant stuff will be hid without notice. And any personal stuff counts as non-relevant so cut that s#!t out...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Whoops! said:


 

I appreciate you reigning us in Chuck, but you have to admit - pretty entertaining conversation right? 😄😄😄

 

Not really.

 

4 hours ago, Whoops! said:

It’s not a fair test of skill when it isn’t skill for anyone.

 

That’s the point here.  A lot of side bar from people who have no concept of stage design or the intent of major matches detracts from that.


 

When something moves at an unknown speed, it can’t be properly aimed for by anyone who hasn’t already had practice with that unknown speed.

 

 

USPSA originally had it's roots in real life practical shooting, and in real life targets move at unknown speeds at unknown distances.  Deal with it.  Moving targets change speed for a multitude of reasons, wind, lubrication, wear, heat, cold, etc...

 

Judging target speed and distance is a skill, get better at it.

 

Nolan

 

Edited by Nolan

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4 hours ago, Whoops! said:


Says the guy who wasn’t there, probably can’t shoot as well as me, and didn’t see that the 57 yard swinger was luck for everyone because no one (that I know of or spoke to) shot it twice with two shots?

 

It’s not a fair test of skill when it isn’t skill for anyone.

 

That’s the point here.  A lot of side bar from people who have no concept of stage design or the intent of major matches detracts from that.


 

When something moves at an unknown speed, it can’t be properly aimed for by anyone who hasn’t already had practice with that unknown speed.

 

 

The point for the prize table was moved.

 

I want to see new shooters legitimately competing at nationals each year.  We need higher top prizes to influence Americans to dedicate their time to do that.

 

 

By the way, my simple feedback thread for the 2020 Nationals is about to have more views in several days than any other topic made in this sub forum has had in the last two years.

 

 

Tell me I don’t know how to market - and then go check out the marketing thread the admin moved all the other posts into.

 

 

We need to fix USPSA’s appeal so our kids can do it someday.

You got to see it activated during walk through correct? That’s usually all you get on any mover.

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I don't have a problem with the stage design, other than probably not being able to hit the swinger at that distance.  But I do think there's an argument to be made for the fact that targets at that distance aren't really "practical" in the sense that in real life at 55-70 yards, you shouldn't really be engaging anything.  Rather, you should be heading in the opposite direction.

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