Previewing stages at a level 2 match

[Goodonpaper]

I’m guessing this has been covered but none of my keywords in the search brought anything relevant up.

 

Yesterday, on the second day of a level 2 match, I noticed a fair amount of guys observing the action. As the day wore on the numbers grew and as stages became empty I began to see them venturing into the shooting area and onto the stage itself. At one point I counted 11 guys on the next stage walking and air gunning as our squad finished our last.

 

It just triggered me and as I looked over the rulebook this morning I didn’t see anything specifically barring observation but I don’t think the intent was for the RO to allow them access to the shooting areas. My thoughts are if you want to get on the stages before shooting them help set up. 

 

It seemed unsportsman like and I hope it rains on them today!

 

Is there a citable rule that applies here?

 

[Nevadazielmeister]

13 minutes ago, Goodonpaper said:

Is there a citable rule that applies here?

 

Nope. 

 

How is it unsportsmanlike? How different is it when someone looks at the written stage brief and course design online? What unfair advantage are they gaining?

[Maksim]

Generally I don't see any issues with this,  with the situation that I believe you are describing.

 

If the stage is empty, i.e no squad on it currently, or last squad passed, etc... zero issues.

 

Where I have issues, as an RO and where it would be unsportsmanlike would be...

 

1. There is a squad on the stage and you are in the shooting area during an active squad.

2. You are airgunning the stage between shooters AND IT IS NOT YOUR SQUAD.... i.e. you left your squad to get ahead OR are not there shooting.

 

Otherwise, no issues from me and this is how it was from local matches to nationals. 

[Sarge]

8.7.3 Normal stage inspection is allowed during the hours of the match, providing there are match staff present. 8.7.4 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without match staff present to supervise competitor actions during stage inspection unless the Range Master has specifically approved inspection of the stages with no staff present. Without match staff present or specific approval, the course of fire is to be considered closed or off limits. Reasonable efforts must be made to communicate information to all competitors about closed courses. 8.7.4.1 Altering stage props, targets or any other part of a COF without the approval of the Range Master is subject to the provisions of Section 10.6

[Goodonpaper]

19 minutes ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

 

Nope. 

 

How is it unsportsmanlike? How different is it when someone looks at the written stage brief and course design online? What unfair advantage are they gaining?

So these guys are allowed an unlimited walk through assuming it’s not impacting a squad? And believe me I’m not asking this in a snarky way.

At my skill level on a more complex stage I can have a hard time locking down my stage plan in the allotted time without ‘hogging’ the areas from my squad mates. Getting better at planning is just some of my low hanging fruit.

 

I don’t know, I guess after a long day it kind of rubbed me wrong and it seemed like there should be some efforts to dissuade this activity. 

 

Thanks for setting me straight guys

[PhilTerry]

Only under USPSA rules,  rule 8.7.3 covers the situation for IPSC matches.

[Rnlinebacker]

I’m guessing this has been covered but none of my keywords in the search brought anything relevant up.
 
Yesterday, on the second day of a level 2 match, I noticed a fair amount of guys observing the action. As the day wore on the numbers grew and as stages became empty I began to see them venturing into the shooting area and onto the stage itself. At one point I counted 11 guys on the next stage walking and air gunning as our squad finished our last.
 
It just triggered me and as I looked over the rulebook this morning I didn’t see anything specifically barring observation but I don’t think the intent was for the RO to allow them access to the shooting areas. My thoughts are if you want to get on the stages before shooting them help set up. 
 
It seemed unsportsman like and I hope it rains on them today!
 
Is there a citable rule that applies here?
 

[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787]

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[Goodonpaper]

Lol ^ already posted in my office at work^

[Sarge]

37 minutes ago, Goodonpaper said:

So these guys are allowed an unlimited walk through assuming it’s not impacting a squad? And believe me I’m not asking this in a snarky way.

At my skill level on a more complex stage I can have a hard time locking down my stage plan in the allotted time without ‘hogging’ the areas from my squad mates. Getting better at planning is just some of my low hanging fruit.

 

I don’t know, I guess after a long day it kind of rubbed me wrong and it seemed like there should be some efforts to dissuade this activity. 

 

Thanks for setting me straight guys

At larger matches it’s common to get asked how long the range will be open the night before so Shooters coming in from out of town can walk stages. Totally normal practice even though the rules make it seem much more strict. The taboos have been mentioned such as interfering with other squads or activating movers. And it’s common courtesy to ask permission to walk a stage if there are actually staff present.

  Think about it like this. Even at local matches those who helped set up actually have a much better idea what to expect than those who just show up and shoot. It kind of is what it is but not a big deal. Not cheating or even gaming to walk stages in advance. Just good match prep.

[Goodonpaper]

 

So really the time limit for the squad walk through is really more of a function of keeping the match moving than trying to equalize access? Makes sense.

 I’ll have to make an effort to get in early from here out but my alarm going off at 4:30 Saturday was painful enough:)

 

[Sarge]

14 minutes ago, Goodonpaper said:

 

So really the time limit for the squad walk through is really more of a function of keeping the match moving than trying to equalize access? 

 

Correct. If we don't set some kind of limit, on certain stages folks could look at it for 15-20 minutes and still not be sure. Easier stages, often shooters look at it once and call it good.

[Rnlinebacker]

So these guys are allowed an unlimited walk through assuming it’s not impacting a squad? And believe me I’m not asking this in a snarky way.
At my skill level on a more complex stage I can have a hard time locking down my stage plan in the allotted time without ‘hogging’ the areas from my squad mates. Getting better at planning is just some of my low hanging fruit.
 
I don’t know, I guess after a long day it kind of rubbed me wrong and it seemed like there should be some efforts to dissuade this activity. 
 
Thanks for setting me straight guys

Dude, there's no such thing as a bad stage plan...... there is only poor execution which causes failure and frustration. Choose a plan that is suited to your physical abilities, shooting level and the least amount of risk.

Most importantly, walkthrough & visualize the crap out of it until you can close your eyes and recall every target and position. BELIEVE in your plan and let no others dissuade you. I can't tell you the amount of times I've screwed up because I was being flaky all the way up to the start beep. Hope you performed well in your level 2!! much success to you

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[rowdyb]

And why even if the major match is only 3 hours drive away I still arrive the day before and hang out at the range for as long as needed to get what I want. Then I am not reliant on the 4-5 minute walk through on the match day(s). A savvy competitor will always arrive early enough to do so. Not looking at stages ahead of time is as dumb as only bringing the minimum number of rounds required to the match......

 

It's also another reason to never shoot on staff day unless you have to, hahahaha.

 

And why do you consider an "advantage" to be unsportsmanlike? You mentioned getting up at 0430 as painful but what is more painful to you, working on 6 hours of sleep or going home knowing you did much less than your ability because you wanted to sleep a little more?

Edited June 9, 2019 by rowdyb

[RangerTrace]

I always try to get to a major match the day before and memorize my stage/plans before I leave.  It makes the whole match much more enjoyable for me.  Sadly, this is one of the main reasons I like IDPA so much.  The stages are so simple, that walk throughs are rarely needed.  Even at Nationals.

[shred]

This is one of those differences between IPSC and USPSA that can bite USPSA shooters.  IPSC courses are generally off-limits except to the squad during their walkthrough time, and woe betide anyone caught walking through in advance.

 

There are pluses and minuses both ways.  With the IPSC-way, there's not so much need to get to the match a day in advance and scope it all out.  Downside is on complicated stages, you have to come up with a plan, any plan, rather than trying to work out the best one in the 4 minutes the squad gets (at something like a World Shoot, the savvy teams send a RD or someone through the pre-match to scope it all out for them).  With the USPSA way, there's a lot less stress when the squad gets there and even those people that didn't pre-walk can usually pick up a decent plan from someone that did, but on the downside if you want to do well, you need to add a day to your travel.

 

 

[Goodonpaper]

I must have come off as a whiny b!#(h but that’s not me or how I live my life, I honestly thought there were regs concerning this. It’s not like if there were and I knew them I’d spout them off anyway.

 

This was my second match above club level and quite an eye opener. There are a ton of talented guys out there and I learned a couple things directly and a ton of weak areas that I need to work on. On the plus side there’s plenty of quick gains available to me

Peeling the onion...

[rowdyb]

44 minutes ago, Goodonpaper said:

ng the onion...

What's cool is you can never be perfect in what we do. So there is always something to do better.  It is impossible to shoot all A in zero seconds. 

 

When I was new I learned as much from one major match as at least 4 local ones.

[Goodonpaper]

21 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

What's cool is you can never be perfect in what we do. So there is always something to do better.  It is impossible to shoot all A in zero seconds. 

 

When I was new I learned as much from one major match as at least 4 local ones.

It’s a fun time for me now because any focused drill results in a marked improvement.

I was lucky enough to be squaded with a national  champ who looks like is going to take the overall win. 

[motosapiens]

On 6/9/2019 at 7:57 AM, Goodonpaper said:

At my skill level on a more complex stage I can have a hard time locking down my stage plan in the allotted time without ‘hogging’ the areas from my squad mates. Getting better at planning is just some of my low hanging fruit.

 

 

sounds like getting better at preparing for major matches might be some low-hanging fruit. 

 

It is pretty much standard procedure for good shooters to prepare by showing up a day early and carefully examining all the stages, and if possible watching the staff shoot the ones with moving targets. It's also something I enjoy, because I'm thinking and talking about shooting. I also typically run into numerous acquaintances, former squad-mates, etc... so there is a bit of socializing too.

Edited June 10, 2019 by motosapiens

[pjb45]

The Desert Classic posts explicit instructions regarding walk through poor to / before the match. 

 

During the the match I have heard CRO/RO tell the waiting squad not to walk the stage while a squad is shooting. 

 

It’s just common courtesy to squad shooting and the on deck shooter to walk the stage while being reset. 

[eisenhow]

On 6/9/2019 at 9:18 AM, Sarge said:

8.7.3 Normal stage inspection is allowed during the hours of the match, providing there are match staff present. 8.7.4 No person is permitted to enter or move through a course of fire without match staff present to supervise competitor actions during stage inspection unless the Range Master has specifically approved inspection of the stages with no staff present. Without match staff present or specific approval, the course of fire is to be considered closed or off limits. Reasonable efforts must be made to communicate information to all competitors about closed courses. 8.7.4.1 Altering stage props, targets or any other part of a COF without the approval of the Range Master is subject to the provisions of Section 10.6

 

Is this the Candice  rule?

[Hi-Power Jack]

Some COF's are so complex, and the targets hidden from view, that

if I did NOT get there the day before, I'd be lost.

 

Even so, there have been a few COF's that I was never prepared for -

couldn't come up with a shooting plan.

 

And, a few other COF's where I caught how to shoot it (the secret to

the puzzle) just before I had to shoot it.

 

It is a tremendous advantage to walk through the COF before you

are squadded, but don't get in anybody's way.     

[GrumpyOne]

1 minute ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

Some COF's are so complex, and the targets hidden from view, that

if I did NOT get there the day before, I'd be lost.

 

Even so, there have been a few COF's that I was never prepared for -

couldn't come up with a shooting plan.

 

And, a few other COF's where I caught how to shoot it (the secret to

the puzzle) just before I had to shoot it.

 

It is a tremendous advantage to walk through the COF before you

are squadded, but don't get in anybody's way.     

Plan? I don't need no stinking plan!

 

I've found that if I look at a stage too long, I get too many ideas going through my head, and none of them seem to stick, so I end up shooting the stage on the fly. This even happens after I have a plan, and I'm just sitting back and watching others walk through it. So, I generally walk it twice, get my plan (if you can call it that, LOL), and turn my back on it and load mags, check gear, whatever. 

 

I just can't seem to get past thinking that my plan, no matter how well it may work for me, that someone has a better plan, and try to incorporate their plan, or parts of their plan, into mine, screwing mine up. Best for me to not look or study too much.

[IHAVEGAS]

On 6/9/2019 at 12:49 PM, Goodonpaper said:

I must have come off as a whiny b!#

 

If you are shooting the Terra Haute match this Sunday you will fit right in  

[Goodonpaper]

All in all I would say that the match was more technical than what I’m used to. I had one stage that I had to back up a step to engage a target I had overrun and had 2 FTEs on the mags on barrel stage. There were 2 stages that I saw a better plan too late and decided to stick with what I had already laid out. 

I finished better than I had expected and my 2 takeaways are to work on visualization and have the patience to see the sights as needed, it turns out I couldn’t outrun my mikes. 

 

Ihavegas, I am planning on going to Riley Sunday and want to get out there early so I’ll have more time to b!+(h