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jessesmith121

Thoughts on Unsportsmanlike DQ on a classifier

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Hey shooting world.  This didn't happen to me but I heard about a DQ during a classifier match.  The story goes like this.  Person is pushing to class up during an all classifier match.  Having a good run of it.  Having a decent stage accidentally clips a no shoot.  Knowing it could mess up his overall classification he throws 2 more in the no shoot also taking 2 additional shots on a VA count stage.  Making it a zero score.  R.O. immediately DQ'd him for Unsportsmanlike...

 

Thoughts?  Mine in the guy is just being a jerk....  Considering the same R.O. was coaching others through the classifier. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, jessesmith121 said:

Hey shooting world.  This didn't happen to me but I heard about a DQ during a classifier match.  The story goes like this.  Person is pushing to class up during an all classifier match.  Having a good run of it.  Having a decent stage accidentally clips a no shoot.  Knowing it could mess up his overall classification he throws 2 more in the no shoot also taking 2 additional shots on a VA count stage.  Making it a zero score.  R.O. immediately DQ'd him for Unsportsmanlike...

 

Thoughts?  Mine in the guy is just being a jerk....  Considering the same R.O. was coaching others through the classifier. 

 

So the RO dqed him for gaming the classifier system?  If that is the case, seems like the shooter should have arbed that, cause that sounds more like a FTDR DQ that the RO made up than unsportsman like conduct.  Sounds like the shooter got screwed, if it happened the way its descried.  (I know there is no FTDR in USPSA, just making a point)

Edited by RJH

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Sounds like a right BOC to me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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The RO is both completely wrong and clearly in violation of Troy’s first rule. 

 

 

Let’s see, how would I handle this if I were the shooter. 

 

First, I would point out to the RO that my actions in no way meet the criteria listed under 10.6.1. 

 

I would also point out that 1.1.5 allows me to shoot the course of fire in any way I choose as long as it’s safe and follows all other applicable rules.

 

If he still wanted to DQ me, I would immediately ask for the RM (who probably is also the MD at a local) to appeal the call. I would also tell the MD/RM that I would like to file a formal complaint to NROI about the RO who made the call. 

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4 minutes ago, DKorn said:

The RO is both completely wrong and clearly in violation of Troy’s first rule. 

 

 

Let’s see, how would I handle this if I were the shooter. 

 

First, I would point out to the RO that my actions in no way meet the criteria listed under 10.6.1. 

 

I would also point out that 1.1.5 allows me to shoot the course of fire in any way I choose as long as it’s safe and follows all other applicable rules.

 

If he still wanted to DQ me, I would immediately ask for the RM (who probably is also the MD at a local) to appeal the call. I would also tell the MD/RM that I would like to file a formal complaint to NROI about the RO who made the call. 

 

Yep, having just completed my certification, I agree with this. Troy McManus is very fair in his interpretation of the rules and I would trust his judgment. I suspect he would come to the same conclusion. 

 

To the RO, I would recommend that he send an email to NROI and request a review. This will help the Match Director and the Range Office in their understanding of the rules to ensure this does not happen again. 

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Yeah not appropriate. How could you prove intent. 

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I’ll bet I see that 5-6 times a season. It’s perfectly legal and frankly, smart.

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Posted (edited)

If "classifier management" is unsportsmanlike conduct worthy of a DQ we'd all have been dq-ed for it.

 

Heck, I've seen many, many a shooter rip a whole mag into a target then throw a mag down in disgust and say the F word after that type of run without even the mere hint of an unsportsmanlike dq.

Edited by rowdyb

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I felt kinda bad, he traveled pretty far for this classifier match.  He had seen me zero a classifier (dumped 5 rounds in a no shoot after a malfunction during Can you Count) we all had a good laugh about it and I got made fun of for about a week.     He called me about the DQ right after it happened and I though he was joking...  I had never heard of someone getting booted for zeroing a classifier.  thought it was strange so I figured I would ask.  Looks like I wasn't alone in thinking it was strange.  I guess some people just never got a hug in life..   

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This was me. Truth be told, I didn’t have a great enough grasp on that particular section of the rule book and didn’t really think to take it to arbitration. Never even spoke with the RM. If we’re being honest, I’d been helpful and a good squad mate all day. I wasn’t really salty about it until I had talked to our local RM and a bunch of other people, and now this.

Guess I’ll dig into the rule book deeper.  I did contact Troy, as well as Sherwyn. I have a feeling the DQ is a done deal but I don’t want to see this happen to anyone else in the future.

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15 minutes ago, Rosswoodford said:

Never even spoke with the RM. 

 

This alone tells me that the RO didn’t know what they were doing. Standard procedure should be to immediately call the RM for any DQs, per 10.3.2 (Range master must be notified as soon as possible). This is then reiterated in 10.6.1. Every range master I’ve worked a match with always wants to talk to the RO and the shooter to confirm every DQ. 

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1 hour ago, DKorn said:

 

This alone tells me that the RO didn’t know what they were doing. Standard procedure should be to immediately call the RM for any DQs, per 10.3.2 (Range master must be notified as soon as possible). This is then reiterated in 10.6.1. Every range master I’ve worked a match with always wants to talk to the RO and the shooter to confirm every DQ. 

 

This is truly some of the best advice in the thread so far. RM should be notified of any DQ. All DQ's should be backed up with actual rule numbers and RM should agree with stated reasoning.

 

RO was a complete turd in this case.

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Posted (edited)

For those following this thread - Can anything come of a NROI review?

Edited by Rosswoodford

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Yup, maybe we will see a new rule making a "zero or hero" strategy a match DQ.  We are going to see a lot of folks going home early.

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Posted (edited)

That sounds like a bummer situation to experience. Some lessons are harder than others. Hopefully with the feedback listed here you will be better prepared to challenge this type of invalid DQ call. In my opinion the Arbitration process isn't used enough given how poorly the officiating happens at some matches. Most shooters don't know the rules well enough to keep overreaching RO's from bullying them around with their made up rules or strange rule interpretations. Knowing the rules is just as important as knowing how to shoot. We play a game that is governed by rules, there is no excuse in not knowing all of the rules.

 

On the other side of the equation, just like you bring a backup gun, spare parts, or extra ammo, you should also keep a fresh $100 bill in your wallet just in case you need to Arbitrate an invalid ruling. I have luckily only been forced into this situation a few times over the years where an invalid ruling is being made, I escalate it to the RM or MD and request an Arbitration form with my $100 in hand. Every time this has happened to me, logical sense about the situation came to the surface when everyone involved realized that I wasn't screwing around about doing an official Arbitration and I could point out the specific rules that supported the correct ruling of the scenario. I am not going to allow an uneducated RO bully me with their invalid rulings because I know what the rules are and I am fully prepared to back it up with an Arbitration if needed. 

Edited by CHA-LEE

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49 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

Most shooters don't know the rules well enough to keep overreaching RO's from bullying them around with their made up rules or strange rule interpretations. Knowing the rules is just as important as knowing how to shoot. We play a game that is governed by rules, there is no excuse in not knowing all of the rules.

Agreed, to all of this, 100%. Had I known references already, this could have been avoided. 

 

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And remember, the arb fee is only equal to the cost of the match up to a max of $100, so it may only be a few bucks to arb something, not necessarily the whole hundo.   

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I've jokingkly said it about idpa but the principle still works in this instance, "the best item for self defense at an ______ match isn't the gun on your hip but the rule book in your bag."

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which can be in your range bag... paper or plastic rule book, the saying still works hahahaha

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The arb fee is non refundable, correct?

 

 

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Just now, B_RAD said:

The arb fee is non refundable, correct?

 

 

 

Per 11.4.2, if you (the competitor) win the appeal, you get your fee back. If not, the match is supposed to send it, along with the details of the arbitration, to NROI. 

 

NROI is also supposed to post all arbitrations on the USPSA website per the rules but I can’t find where they post them, if they still do. 

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1 hour ago, B_RAD said:

The arb fee is non refundable, correct?

 

 

If you lose.

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Some version of this happens at most every match with a classifier...

 

Never heard of anyone getting DQ'd for it...

 

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