Thoughts on Unsportsmanlike DQ on a classifier

[pskys2]

18 hours ago, Rosswoodford said:

None of that was present. I had been a quality squad mate all day (and even after the DQ I took on the role of squad mom). It was absolutely a zero or hero run, I clipped the no shoot, so put 2 more in it and proceeded to not shoot the remainder of the stage Virginia count. (For good measure of course)

I kind of figured as I've never seen such antics in the 40+ years of active participation in Practical Shooting, so I was making an attempt at humor or tongue in cheek hyperbole.

Sounds like you got a bad deal.  I'd think it might be worth a protest to overturn.  But at a club match I try not to get overly excited.  

Good form though staying and helping out.  I'd avoid squads with that particular RO, if it was me.

[fishhunter3]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:14 PM, CHA-LEE said:

On the other side of the equation, just like you bring a backup gun, spare parts, or extra ammo, you should also keep a fresh $100 bill in your wallet just in case you need to Arbitrate an invalid ruling. I have luckily only been forced into this situation a few times over the years where an invalid ruling is being made, I escalate it to the RM or MD and request an Arbitration form with my $100 in hand. Every time this has happened to me, logical sense about the situation came to the surface when everyone involved realized that I wasn't screwing around about doing an official Arbitration and I could point out the specific rules that supported the correct ruling of the scenario. I am not going to allow an uneducated RO bully me with their invalid rulings because I know what the rules are and I am fully prepared to back it up with an Arbitration if needed. 

I don't where everybody thinks an arbitration is automatically $100 dollars, it's only that much if the match fee is that much or more. so for most local matches it would be $20 to $30.  

 11.4.1  Amount – As set by the Match Organizers, the appeal fee to enable an appellant to appeal to arbitration will be US$100.00 or the equivalent of the maximum individual match entry fee (whichever is lower).  An appeal brought by the Range Master in respect of a match issue will not incur a fee. 

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, fishhunter3 said:

I don't where everybody thinks an arbitration is automatically $100 dollars, it's only that much if the match fee is that much or more. so for most local matches it would be $20 to $30.  

 11.4.1  Amount – As set by the Match Organizers, the appeal fee to enable an appellant to appeal to arbitration will be US$100.00 or the equivalent of the maximum individual match entry fee (whichever is lower).  An appeal brought by the Range Master in respect of a match issue will not incur a fee. 

I would never arb something at a local match. Most every major match costs more than $100 and that’s where Arbs are going to happen 99% of the time.

[Rosswoodford]

Just now, Sarge said:

I would never arb something at a local match.

I wish I would have. Probably would have won Had I had the same knowledge of the rules that I do now. Cost me upclassing, too

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, Rosswoodford said:

I wish I would have. Probably would have won Had I had the same knowledge of the rules that I do now.

The guys on the Arb committee are the ones you have to count on to know the rules. And remember the MD, who was most likely the RM, picks the Arb committee.

[Rosswoodford]

2 minutes ago, Sarge said:

The guys on the Arb committee are the ones you have to count on to know the rules. And remember the MD, who was most likely the RM, picks the Arb committee.

I just didn’t understand the arbitration process. Had I known the rules as I do now, I think it would have been successful as far as pleading my case went. Oh well - Live and learn I guess

[Rosswoodford]

44 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

I kind of figured as I've never seen such antics in the 40+ years of active participation in Practical Shooting, so I was making an attempt at humor or tongue in cheek hyperbole.

Sounds like you got a bad deal.  I'd think it might be worth a protest to overturn.  But at a club match I try not to get overly excited.  

Good form though staying and helping out.  I'd avoid squads with that particular RO, if it was me.

Oh trust me, I will be

[bigfish]

Remember there are 2 side to each story and we are only hearing 1. If the other people involved want to chime in, that’s up to them.  

Edited June 9, 2019 by bigfish

[Nathanb]

Intimidate him into what? This just gets weirder and weirder. 

 

And for the record. Unless he said if you are finished unload and show clear there is nothing he’s supposed to be saying as an RO

[Rosswoodford]

2 hours ago, bigfish said:

Remember there are 2 side to each story and we are only hearing 1. If the other people involved want to chime in, that’s up to them.  

I’d love to hear it. Seriously. Your post is edited and I can’t see what was said before, so don’t know how to respond to that. I don’t know how much better of a squad mate I could have been that day. (Not sure if you were there or not) So I still don’t understand the call. It’s done and over with so it doesn’t matter, but at this point it’s less about that and more about the learning experience it’s provided. I’ve been in contact with the right people, and I’ve been cordial through the whole process. I guess I don’t know how much more there is to say. 

[bigfish]

The post was edited before there where any responses because it’s just going to turn into a “he said, she said”

had I left it.  It was edited before there where any responses, but obviously someone saw it before the edit since someone did reply to it

[Rosswoodford]

1 minute ago, bigfish said:

The post was edited before there where any responses because it’s just going to turn into a “he said, she said”

had I left it.  It was edited before there where any responses, but obviously someone saw it before the edit since someone did reply to it

I understand. Were you there? What were YOU told? I'm genuinely curious.  I didn't get a chance to talk to the RM until I had already gotten home, but I did have a respectful conversation with the RO post match. 

[Chuck Anderson]

On 6/5/2019 at 5:31 PM, wgj3 said:

 

Sadly, not a very definitive answer. IMO, should have been answered more definitively based on the facts that were shared by OP. Then he could've added other info. Most important detail being that the simple act of tanking a classifier(whether intentional or not) isn't a DQ-able offense.

It's as definitive an answer as I would expect without Troy being able to speak to the RO and get his side of the issue.  I've seen many of these emails that give, well lets just say a generous side of the story.  Not saying this one is, but it causes more harm than good to say the RO was wrong without talking to him.  

[1911Prof]

Let me start with the obligatory "I wasn't there, but..."  I know the RO and he is one of the nicest guys in the world without a single a_-hole bone in his body.  I suspect he is a newb to the whole RO thing and my guess is when the shooter intentionally dumped a couple of extra shots into the no shoot he was startled and reacted.  It was clearly a bad call from a newb RO, but that is why it is in the rules that we get to object.  I am not suggesting that we become "that guy" that wants the overlays on every perf, but ROs are people and people make mistakes.  I guess the take home message is that don't be afraid to call bulls#!t to the MD, its in the rules that we get to do that for a reason.  I suspect it is a lesson that the shooter will never forget.  But what do I know, I shoot open so I bitch about everything.

Edited June 11, 2019 by 1911Prof

[Rosswoodford]

2 hours ago, 1911Prof said:

"  I know the RO and he is one of the nicest guys in the world without a single a_-hole bone in his body.  

I don’t have a problem with him personally. He actually seemed like a nice enough guy. I had a respectful conversation with him after the match. That said, when you say “Most RO’s would have let that slide but I’m a hardass” after DQing someone on a rule you clearly didn’t know, I take some issue with it. At the end of the day this was a good learning experience. Just unfortunate. Drove 2 hours to be DQ’d for *not* breaking the rules.

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Rosswoodford said:

I don’t have a problem with him personally. He actually seemed like a nice enough guy. I had a respectful conversation with him after the match. That said, when you say “Most RO’s would have let that slide but I’m a hardass” after DQing someone on a rule you clearly didn’t know, I take some issue with it. At the end of the day this was a good learning experience. Just unfortunate. Drove 2 hours to be DQ’d for *not* breaking the rules.

 

You are the first person i know of that was actually DQed by an RO, most of us DQ ourselves and the RO just points it out.  You must feel special

[laz2011]

I would not have DQed him . USPSA we shoot freestyle.  

[obsessiveshooter]

How is it that no one else on the squad spoke up about the bad call?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[elguapo]

1 hour ago, obsessiveshooter said:

How is it that no one else on the squad spoke up about the bad call?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

 

First, how do you know no one else said or did anything to support Ross?

 

Second, even if you're right, who knows?  A lot of people know absolutely nothing about the rules of the sport they play.  I run into at least one at every match.  Others simply mind their own business even if they do understand what's up.  They just won't get involved in other people's problems no matter what.

 

 

[obsessiveshooter]

 
First, how do you know no one else said or did anything to support Ross?
 
Seems like a reasonable assumption, especially since the shooter didn't mention it.

All I know is the way USPSA in the Denver area works. We have a big population of dedicated shooters who care about the rules being adhered to, and I cant imagine a squad not caring why a shooter was DQd.



Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[elguapo]

Fair enough.  I'm one of those who won't stay silent if I see someone getting screwed.  I've also had squadmates back me up against BS RO calls (IDPA).

[motosapiens]

On 6/8/2019 at 5:03 PM, Sarge said:

The guys on the Arb committee are the ones you have to count on to know the rules. And remember the MD, who was most likely the RM, picks the Arb committee.

I would think it would be hard to find 3 RO's at a match that thought it was ok to dq someone for zero-ing a classifier. Heck, I think it would be hard to find 3 experienced shooters, RO-certified or not.

[Rosswoodford]

On 6/15/2019 at 10:37 PM, obsessiveshooter said:

How is it that no one else on the squad spoke up about the bad call?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

Valid question. Squad full of *mostly* new-ish shooters. I’m not even new, I just didn’t know it was for sure not against the rules (by that, I mean that I had watched plenty of other shooters zero classifiers intentionally with no repercussions and assumed it was within the rules) so I didn’t question it. I should have. RO wasn’t certified, only one squad member that I know of was, and he apparently didn’t know the rules well enough either. Perfect storm, if you will.

 

 

 

Edit: It’s also worth noting that I prevented the same RO from DQing someone earlier in the match *after* the stage was almost scored,  for a safety violation that he didn’t decide he saw until after the fact. 

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by Rosswoodford

[pjb45]

My friend, who use to post here and was one of the few CROs in the state would often say “the rule book is your friend”.  

 

Also, I had the state section coordinator mentor me. 

 

I have had matches with the squad comprised of mostly GMs, they all knew the rule book front to back. Kind of made an impression on me. 

 

There is a rule book in every gun bag for me.

[DKorn]

22 hours ago, pjb45 said:

 

There is a rule book in every gun bag for me.

 

Make sure you’ve got the most up to date rules (best bet is the app) and not the old rulebook. Especially now that it’ “evergreen”, I recommend using the electronic version and not a printout, in case anything changes.