a philosophic question. Why does a D.Q. result in all results being erased?

[kurtm]

Ok, it has been fairly dead in here for a while so lets get this going. I'd like to hear from match directors, but anyone's opinion is more than welcome!!

 

Why does a D.Q. cause all of your match results to be "erased"? Why doesn't one get credit for the stages completed up to the point they D.Q.?

 

Yes I know that they have done something deemed "unsafe", and need to stop shooting for the day to ponder on what they did, but they had been deemed to be safe on all stages leading up to the D.Q. Why don't they get the credit for the stages completed safely and successfully?

 

There are all sorts of ways people D.Q.. Break the 180, fire a shot while reloading, launch one out of the berm, drop a loaded gun, drop an unloaded gun in some cases, un-bag in an inappropriate area....etc. BUT there are plenty of other ways which aren't really too much of the shooters fault. Being tripped by uneven fault lines, being tripped by a rope fault line, being tripped by a big rock in the middle of a stage that the staff knew was a trip hazard and even painted the rock orange and ending up breaking the 180 or dropping a gun,  holster being ripped off belt by a piece of loose trim on a prop car, pistol pulled out of holster by a parachute harness, rifle sling getting caught on a jagged wall prop, dump barrel falls over dropping shotgun onto ground, stairway breaks causing a fall and 180 violation......and I could go on after these many years, but I think you get the idea. Many of these D.Q.s are really the result of bad stage design, bad prop maintenance, but it does result in all the shooters scores to be erased from the results. WHY??

 

In many forms of racing, you get the credit for the amount you complete. There have been several F1 races over the years that 3rd place was decided by the number of laps completed....and yet that car never went the entire 500 miles, due to the field being eliminated by crashes, debris on the track etc. In NASCAR, on a race where a 20 car pile up happens, they still figure out the points awarded all the way down to last place, even though at least 20 of the field didn't complete the race.

 

 Why don't we get the same credit applied? I can see the results now with the shooters name on all stages safely completed, a D.Q. on the stage not completed "safely" and then a D.N.F on the stages not completed due to the D.Q. Thoughts???

[MikeBurgess]

My thought is the match DQ is a huge penalty for the sole purpose of making shooters consider safety above all else, for the duration of the match. If that penalty is reduced shooters will take more risks as the match goes on because they know the penalty is less and less severe every stage they complete. 

[EEH]

It’s a match DQ, not a stage DQ. That’s the reason.

[Tom Freeman]

I agree with Kurt.

 

Up until the DQ you earned points.  The total of those points in the end is DQ, but you still earned points on the stages you completed.

 

I am guessing the scoring software would freak out.

 

I know some matches just delete shooter entirely which isnt right either.

[kurtm]

So, if a stair gives way and causes a competitor to fall and in so doing breaks the 180, he should have considered that and erored towards safety??? If a uneven fault line trips a competitor, he should have been "more safe"???  I'm not sure I see the logic in that, but ok.

[bishop414]

Interesting thought Kurt.  Is your thinking the scores posted should still count towards standings, and potential prize table/awards earnings?

 

Side question, the matches that have "stage DQ's", do their rules also have "match DQs" or no such thing?  How do they compute the finals, basically a zero for the stage DQ and the rest of the scores count towards final placement?

[Mcfoto]

I don't want to be "that guy," but I think getting points/ placement after a DQ falls into the Participation Trophy category. And I'm probably the biggest snowflake on the range!

[TonytheTiger]

6 hours ago, kurtm said:

dump barrel falls over dropping shotgun onto ground,

Been there, it sucks.

I've also wondered why you can't look at stage times/points of DQ'd shooters. Not that a person should still keep those points, they total at 0, tied with any other DQ'd shooters. I'd like to see the times for comparison purposes, not just if I was the DQ'd shooter, I'd still like to compare times against someone I'm chasing that happened to DQ.

[TonytheTiger]

19 minutes ago, bishop414 said:

 Is your thinking the scores posted should still count towards standings, and potential prize table/awards earnings?

 

Just now, Mcfoto said:

I don't want to be "that guy," but I think getting points/ placement after a DQ falls into the Participation Trophy category. 

I don't think thats what he's getting at. Simply being able to see how they were shooting up till the point of DQ, no points awarded.

[kurtm]

Bishop414. Yes matches that stage D.Q. you get no points for that stage, but continue on. I do believe that most these matches still have a "match D.Q." area as well, but a stage D Q. Allows the shooter to continue on and utilize whatever points they accumulated at the end.

 

McFoto, you are not "getting points" past your D.Q. all other stages AFTER your D.Q. would be zero. So your getting what you earned and not on thing more. I do see what you are saying, but it isn't a participation trophy, you only get what you earned.

Let say you are paid by the hour, and half way through the day you are dicking around on break and hurt your leg and can't work the rest of the day. Do we forfit the money we earned for those 4 hours? Or do we get what we earned and nothing more???

 

[IronicTwitch]

Buy the PractiScore Competitor app, you can "what if" and un-DQ the shooter after results have posted and see how they would have placed on the stages they completed.

[StealthyBlagga]

1) Because the DQd shooter’s stage scores left in the match would impact other peoples scores, at least under the most common scoring systems (Hit Factor, Time-Plus w/Points). 

2) Because it has always been thus since the inception of action shooting - probably because the originators of the sport realized how dangerous it could become and wanted a really serious sanction. 

Edited April 12, 2019 by StealthyBlagga

[MemphisMechanic]

25 minutes ago, StealthyBlagga said:

1) Because the DQd shooter’s stage scores left in the match would impact other peoples scores, at least under the most common scoring systems (Hit Factor, Time-Plus w/Points). 

 

This. Particularly with hit factor in USPSA, your score affects the scores of others. Especially if you had a stage win in your division.

 

It is necessary to remove your records to make it far to everyone who completed the match.

[MikeBurgess]

I think the triped and fell on some obstical that could have been easier but wasn not is not really a argument. Yes you should have stepped over it and when you found you didnt you have choices while falling controll the gun or minimize your impact with the ground. So choose yourself and lose controll of your gun then I have zero issue with a DQ.

Now having a prop break on a way that was beyond your controll and I think we have a grey area that probably should be looked at case by case but a blanket pass would be too much for me.



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[kurtm]

How does the D.Q.ed shooters scores affect other shooters scores. How is it any different than when a shooter has to leave a match early, due to family issue or injury? Say I have shot 9 of 12 stages and pop a ligament and can't shoot the last 3, are all my scores erased, because it could affect other shooters scores? Doesn't practiscore account for that or does it completely mess up the whole program? No it doesn't

 

How is this any less safe? You broke the rule and you are sent home, so to speak, either way you no longer shoot. Please explain how not counting the score as it stands makes us safer. After all an R.O. can't stop you from doing whatever it was that you did to  D.Q.. An R.O. yelling STOP doesn't stop the bullet you just launched over the berm, and the STOP doesn't come before the gun is dropped, so how does this make us safer, or conversely, how does counting the score make us completely unsafe? Are D.Q.es actually a punishment function? Do we D.Q. people so they can earn some public humility? I think I see another thread developing from this.

 

I think saying "since the inception of action shooting" is a bit too broad of a statement, since the inception of I P.S.C. Perhaps, but not all action shooting entities had a big rule book associated with it. Not saying right or wrong, but that is a bit too broad of a statement.

 

[MemphisMechanic]

@kurtm do you not understand how hit factor scoring works? Every shooter is awarded points on that stage based upon where they finish with respect to what % they shot of each other’s hit factor.

 

Keeping a DQ’d shooter in the match - you are disqualified from the *entire* match, not the stages you haven’t shot - would be mathematically contradictory to the rules and immensely unfair to those who safely completed everything.

 

if you’re disqualified, you weren’t there that day.

That’s what disqualification means. That person is not qualified to participate in the match.

 

Feel free to get your feelings hurt by it, we don’t mind. Or suck it up and have a nice day. But that’s how it needs to work.

 

Edited April 12, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[kurtm]

MemphisMechanic, do you not understand that this is a philosophical  thought provoking thread? Do you not understand that there are other types of scoring systems? Do you not understand that this is about 3-gun action shooting and not just about I.P.S.C./U.S.P.S.A rules? Do you not realize that there are matches that just issue stage D.Q.s for many of the infractions we are talking about? You do understand that in these types of matches you "were there" that day, just not for the one stage?

Do you not understand that a debate doesn't have to be adversarial and use phrases such as " hurt feelings" and "suck it up"?

To answer your question, yes I am vaguely aware of how hit factor scoring works. I was told once, maybe, long ago that a D.Q. disqualifies you from the entire match, but the underlying question still remains....WHY?

We have always done it that way, isn't really an answer, i.e. why don't we put a steam engine in a ship?....Because we have always used sails!

It makes us safer to erase all scores ...... doesn't answer how it makes us safer when all safety violations which cause a D.Q. are only addressed AFTER the safety violation happened.

 

I contend that leaving the scores earned, as safely shot, is not unfair to anyone. I contend that by NOT leaving that stage win by the D.Q.ed shooter in the scores, you are artificially buoying up the scores of the shooters who were not the best on that stage ....... More like outcome based shooting.

Disclaimer: Yes I am aware that this IS NOT how it has been done for a long time. Yes I am aware this won't change anything, but sometimes a fella just has to ask why don't we put steam engines in ships.

[elguapo]

I just want to ask about something that seems really odd.  Did I read you guys right that some 3G matches give out stage DQs and others match DQs for the same infraction?

 

Do you guys have a rulebook?

[IHAVEGAS]

It is a small minority ,but, work a few matches and you will find some folks trying to win stages by running them all hero or zero and often pushing past the limits of what they can do safely.

I wish we had a bigger hammer not a smaller one.

[RJH]

55 minutes ago, elguapo said:

I just want to ask about something that seems really odd.  Did I read you guys right that some 3G matches give out stage DQs and others match DQs for the same infraction?

 

Do you guys have a rulebook?

 

That is correct, and the problem (although some would say that it is the best part) is that while there are rules in three gun, there is not one standardized rulebook in 3 gun. Which is also true in one gun matches too, USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, etc..

[Joe4d]

Falling doesnt give you an excuse to risk lives around you,,  still your fault, still keep the gun down range even if it means more pain when you land.
Although to your question,,, what would be the point of keeping said points up to the DQ ? what exactly do you plan on doing with them ? not like you are stockpiling them for the end of year.

[IHAVEGAS]

2 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

,, what would be the point of keeping said points up to the DQ ? what exactly do you plan on doing with them ? not like you are stockpiling them for the end of year.

 

Running stages hero or zero it is about bragging rights (wow he did stage xx in yy seconds). 

[kurtm]

I agree with MikeBurges who posted "My thought is the match DQ is a huge penalty for the sole purpose of making shooters consider safety above all else, for the duration of the match". But not the part where the shooter would be more careless as the match progressed if the points counted. Winning is usually decided by 10 -20 points, and no one can afford to just drop 100 points by being more careless as the match continues. 

I also agree with Joe4d, falling is no excuse, but once again the falling and "risking lives" has already happened before anything can be done about it, points or not. What one does or does not do with the points earned isn't really material to the question of why they are erased.

As for hero or zero, this is racing no matter how you look at it, and you can't  D.Q. just for the way you interpret their intent or actions, until a rule is broken, and then the action is long gone before the STOP can be issued. (and yeah I don't really care for the hero or zero mentality either, but it can't really be stopped until a violation occurres)

[IHAVEGAS]

39 minutes ago, kurtm said:

 

As for hero or zero, this is racing no matter how you look at it

 

Agreed. In racing the penalty  for pushing beyond your limits is crashing or having punative action taken by the governing body, or both.

[gerritm]

2 hours ago, elguapo said:

I just want to ask about something that seems really odd.  Did I read you guys right that some 3G matches give out stage DQs and others match DQs for the same infraction?

 

Do you guys have a rulebook?

I have shot "Outlaw" 3-gun matches where not putting on the safety when abandoning the gun was a match DQ & others where it is a stage DQ or even a time penalty.

 

Depending on the affiliation that the match has there is a set of rules. UML, USPSA, & 3-gun Nation come to mind, others use a hybrid approach and combine the rulesets to what they want.

 

gerritm

Edited April 12, 2019 by gerritm