a philosophic question. Why does a D.Q. result in all results being erased?

[StealthyBlagga]

12 hours ago, kurtm said:

... I was asked by several new shooters at our local club after two of them D.Q.ed at their very first match 3/4 of the way through. Their crime?? Moving their spare EMPTY HOLSTERED pistol off of the top of their score cards in the bag when asked for them from the R.O. . Handling a pistol outside of the safety area! ...

 

The applicable USPSA rules are:

 

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1).
5.2.1.1 To be considered bagged, the handgun must be in a case or bag that completely covers the firearm, and prevents access to the trigger, including having the zipper or fastener completely closed.
5.2.1.2 A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

 

and

 

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

 

Rule 5.2.1.2 often bites neophytes (especially those from the 3-gun world) and has always struck me as anomalous. It was introduced when the first 2-piece belt systems hit the market because the USPSA powers-that-be were uncomfortable with the resultant practice of removing your entire rig - gun and all - between stages. However, the long-held USPSA position that a holstered handgun is inert would appear to be inconsistent with 5.2.1.2. If I were king-for-a-day, I'd eliminate this rule (and Virginia Count, but that's another thread), but unfortunately nobody is listening to me.

[elguapo]

3 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

The applicable USPSA rules are:

 

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1).
5.2.1.1 To be considered bagged, the handgun must be in a case or bag that completely covers the firearm, and prevents access to the trigger, including having the zipper or fastener completely closed.
5.2.1.2 A competitor who, while not at a safety area or under RO supervision, removes their holster or their equipment belt with their handgun still in the holster, shall be considered to be in violation of Rule 5.2.1 and subject to disqualification from the match.

 

and

 

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer.

 

Rule 5.2.1.2 often bites neophytes (especially those from the 3-gun world) and has always struck me as anomalous. It was introduced when the first 2-piece belt systems hit the market because the USPSA powers-that-be were uncomfortable with the resultant practice of removing your entire rig - gun and all - between stages. However, the long-held USPSA position that a holstered handgun is inert would appear to be inconsistent with 5.2.1.2. If I were king-for-a-day, I'd eliminate this rule (and Virginia Count, but that's another thread), but unfortunately nobody is listening to me.

 

5.2.1.2 is also contradictory to the second paragraph of 10.5.14.  Why is it a DQ to take your belt off with an unloaded pistol in the holster when dropping said pistol outside the course of fire is not a DQ per se (just as long as you get an RO to hand it back to you)?

 

The flip side is that the fewer number of conditions defining a safe firearm, the easier it is to spot potential problems and avoid real ones.

 

TBCH, after years of enduring atrocious gun handling in the clay shooting sports I'm glad to be back in a sport that takes such an issue seriously, has people who enforce the rules rigidly, and gives no f-cks if someone's feelings get hurt over it.  I'd rather feelings get hurt instead of somebody get ventilated or killed.

Edited April 15, 2019 by elguapo

[RJH]

I would be OK with it if DQed shooters were listed at the bottom of the Stages they shot with %0 for the stage, but time, hits, and hitfactor listed.  This way there would be no effect on the match, but the DQed shooter could at least compare his stage with the others in the match.  To me this seems reasonable

[HoMiE]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

I would be OK with it if DQed shooters were listed at the bottom of the Stages they shot with %0 for the stage, but time, hits, and hitfactor listed.  This way there would be no effect on the match, but the DQed shooter could at least compare his stage with the others in the match.  To me this seems reasonable

If using PractiScore, this is how it’s shown. You might have to do some math to figure out hit factor percentage  or time plus allocation but it shows hits and time for stages shot. 

[DKorn]

I think the reason scores don’t count is because with IPSC/USPSA scoring, someone could set the high hit factor for a stage and thus influence other shooters’ match scores. This was probably carried over into rulesets where it doesn’t matter. 

 

I think that if someone DQ’s, their scores shouldn’t count, but should still exist. In other words, for the purposes of calculating scores for the match, this shooter’s scores aren’t there, but they should still be published at the bottom of the list. There have been times that it would be useful to know how you did on other stages in order to compare and learn what to work on, but since your scores aren’t published you can’t see them.

 

It would also be nice to be able to see in the scores on which stage the DQ happened and why- as MD I’m sure you can see this information, but there are some of us that are interested in potentially designing stages in the future, and seeing which stages had DQs could help avoid future problems. 

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

If using PractiScore, this is how it’s shown. You might have to do some math to figure out hit factor percentage  or time plus allocation but it shows hits and time for stages shot. 

Well, this sounds plenty good enough then.  Little math never hurt no one haha.  

 

So the answer to the OP is, use practiscore,do a little math and call it good.  I actually think that is the best solution, save the math already being done, but that ain't no biggy

[Chuck Anderson]

9 hours ago, StealthyBlagga said:

 

Rule 5.2.1.2 often bites neophytes (especially those from the 3-gun world) and has always struck me as anomalous. It was introduced when the first 2-piece belt systems hit the market because the USPSA powers-that-be were uncomfortable with the resultant practice of removing your entire rig - gun and all - between stages. However, the long-held USPSA position that a holstered handgun is inert would appear to be inconsistent with 5.2.1.2. If I were king-for-a-day, I'd eliminate this rule (and Virginia Count, but that's another thread), but unfortunately nobody is listening to me.

That rule wasn’t in response to two piece belts. It was a result of the Guga Ribas holster. The one where the little tiny holster body could be removed from the belt. NROI didn’t want people walking around with a pistol with what looks like a barely visible trigger lock attached. 

 

The difference is intent between the two. Dropping a gun and having an RO pick it up is not handling. Handling the belt or holstered gun while not attached to anything is handling. 

 

There is an area where a line needs to be drawn. That’s where USPSA chose to draw it. Other sports draw it in different spots. 

[DKorn]

20 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

If using PractiScore, this is how it’s shown. You might have to do some math to figure out hit factor percentage  or time plus allocation but it shows hits and time for stages shot. 

 

Where do you see it? I’m in the PractiScore Competitor app and when I click on a DQ’d shooter from a recent USPSA match their scores are all blank. Is this a website-only thing?

[HoMiE]

4 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Where do you see it? I’m in the PractiScore Competitor app and when I click on a DQ’d shooter from a recent USPSA match their scores are all blank. Is this a website-only thing?

Yeah it looks like you can see the points and time from website and not competitor app. 

[MikeBurgess]

13 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Where do you see it? I’m in the PractiScore Competitor app and when I click on a DQ’d shooter from a recent USPSA match their scores are all blank. Is this a website-only thing?

In the competitor app just modify the shooter and Un-DQ them then you can see their scores 

[DKorn]

17 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

In the competitor app just modify the shooter and Un-DQ them then you can see their scores 

 

thanks!

[kurtm]

Hmmm.....the plot thickens a bit. 10.3.2 When a match disqualification is issued, the Range Officer must record the reasons for the disqualification, and the time and date of the incident, on the competitor's score sheet5, and the range master must be notified as soon as possible.....there is no mention of erasing the competitor!  10.3.3 states Scores for a competitor who has received a match disqualification must not be deleted until the time limit prescribed in rule 11.3.1 has passed.

This is the only place scores being deleted is mentioned in the entire D.Q. section of USPSA rules. and nowhere can I find anything that says the scores must be deleted.

I think what we are starting to see is a bunch of "pseudo rules" being assumed because it was probably a pain to keep them in, in the score keeping program. the rules DO NOT state that the scores be removed. They certainly shouldn't be included in overall match placement, but there is no RULE that mandates they disappear. So it appears that this was not meant to "teach a lesson", or to make a D.Q. painful, or even to force safety to the forefront of the competitors thinking. it was just a quick and easy way for the scoring to be done.

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, kurtm said:

Hmmm.....the plot thickens a bit. 10.3.2 When a match disqualification is issued, the Range Officer must record the reasons for the disqualification, and the time and date of the incident, on the competitor's score sheet5, and the range master must be notified as soon as possible.....there is no mention of erasing the competitor!  10.3.3 states Scores for a competitor who has received a match disqualification must not be deleted until the time limit prescribed in rule 11.3.1 has passed.

This is the only place scores being deleted is mentioned in the entire D.Q. section of USPSA rules. and nowhere can I find anything that says the scores must be deleted.

I think what we are starting to see is a bunch of "pseudo rules" being assumed because it was probably a pain to keep them in, in the score keeping program. the rules DO NOT state that the scores be removed. They certainly shouldn't be included in overall match placement, but there is no RULE that mandates they disappear. So it appears that this was not meant to "teach a lesson", or to make a D.Q. painful, or even to force safety to the forefront of the competitors thinking. it was just a quick and easy way for the scoring to be done.

 

You may be right on all accounts, idk an i am not looking it up haha.  But, now with practiscore , it looks like competitors scores are not deleted, they are just not applied to the match.  So, just look at practiscore and apparently, problem solved

[elguapo]

7 hours ago, kurtm said:

Hmmm.....the plot thickens a bit. 10.3.2 When a match disqualification is issued, the Range Officer must record the reasons for the disqualification, and the time and date of the incident, on the competitor's score sheet5, and the range master must be notified as soon as possible.....there is no mention of erasing the competitor!  10.3.3 states Scores for a competitor who has received a match disqualification must not be deleted until the time limit prescribed in rule 11.3.1 has passed.

This is the only place scores being deleted is mentioned in the entire D.Q. section of USPSA rules. and nowhere can I find anything that says the scores must be deleted.

I think what we are starting to see is a bunch of "pseudo rules" being assumed because it was probably a pain to keep them in, in the score keeping program. the rules DO NOT state that the scores be removed. They certainly shouldn't be included in overall match placement, but there is no RULE that mandates they disappear. So it appears that this was not meant to "teach a lesson", or to make a D.Q. painful, or even to force safety to the forefront of the competitors thinking. it was just a quick and easy way for the scoring to be done.

 

Yes it's all a plot against you.

 

I think you should find a donkey-riding partner (preferably a short and fat one) and get your lance ready to fight them windmills.

[ChuckS]

On 4/14/2019 at 4:26 PM, GrumpyOne said:

If you want this thread to stay open, watch the attitudes...all attitudes, by everyone posting. There won't be a second warning.

closed