a philosophic question. Why does a D.Q. result in all results being erased?

[Racinready300ex]

You results aren't really delete. If you want to see them go into PS competitor app after the match and un-DQ yourself. Then it will show all the scores that were entered prior to you being sent home.

[IHAVEGAS]

52 minutes ago, gerritm said:

I have shot "Outlaw" 3-gun matches where not putting on the safety when abandoning the gun was a match DQ & others where it is a stage DQ or even a time penalty.

 

Depending on the affiliation that the match has there is a set of rules. UML, USPSA, & 3-gun Nation come to mind, others use a hybrid approach and combine the rulesets to what they want.

 

gerritm

 

3 gun matches made me crazy - variable penalties for safety violations - people handling (clearing) loaded guns behind me while I'm downrange watching the shooter - getting muzzled on a routine basis with flagged guns - people loading shotguns (pre-loading) unattended. Many people love the sport but locals here are just not the place for an anal retentive & paranoid USPSA pistol shooter. 

[elguapo]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

That is correct, and the problem (although some would say that it is the best part) is that while there are rules in three gun, there is not one standardized rulebook in 3 gun. Which is also true in one gun matches too, USPSA, IPSC, IDPA, etc..

 

Maybe my question was worded poorly since I know next to nothing about 3 gun.

 

So there are rulebooks, it's just that each organization has differences.  That's fine with me.

[elguapo]

13 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

3 gun matches made me crazy - variable penalties for safety violations - people handling (clearing) loaded guns behind me while I'm downrange watching the shooter - getting muzzled on a routine basis with flagged guns - people loading shotguns (pre-loading) unattended. 

 

All that would be a no-go for me.  Part of the reason I gave up being competitive in sporting clays are all the stupid fudds and their unsafe gun handling habits.  To make matters worse there is absolutely no one to enforce those rules in the shotgun sports.

[RJH]

15 minutes ago, elguapo said:

 

Maybe my question was worded poorly since I know next to nothing about 3 gun.

 

So there are rulebooks, it's just that each organization has differences.  That's fine with me.

There are more like a few rule pages on a website haha. Uspsa and maybe 3gun nation (are they still in business, idk) have a more standardized set of rules like you see in uspsa.  Many three  gun matches rules are basically specific to that match. Many times tac ops and open are the only divisions that have a basic commanility of equipment across the country.  So basically if you want to shoot 3 gun, you have to check that matches specific set of rules and male sure that you know them. It IMO is a royal PIA, and one of the reasons i rarely shoot 3 gun anymore. Even matches in my area would run slightly different rules, things that would send you home at one match are good to go at another.

[elguapo]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

There are more like a few rule pages on a website haha. Uspsa and maybe 3gun nation (are they still in business, idk) have a more standardized set of rules like you see in uspsa.  Many three  gun matches rules are basically specific to that match. Many times tac ops and open are the only divisions that have a basic commanility of equipment across the country.  So basically if you want to shoot 3 gun, you have to check that matches specific set of rules and male sure that you know them. It IMO is a royal PIA, and one of the reasons i rarely shoot 3 gun anymore. Even matches in my area would run slightly different rules, things that would send you home at one match are good to go at another.

 

At some point they need to grow up if they wish to grow the sport.  PRS is going through a similar situation.  I have no interest in any shooting sport where rule instability is a thing.

[Larry White]

Hello Kurt

[bimmer1980]

I thinks it´s an educational measure. Safety first. Noone should even get the idea of trying to get lucky with the safety rules for gaining speed.

[Nevadazielmeister]

On 4/11/2019 at 8:56 AM, kurtm said:

Why does a D.Q. cause all of your match results to be "erased"? Why doesn't one get credit for the stages completed up to the point they D.Q.?

Why don't they get the credit for the stages completed safely and successfully?

...result in all the shooters scores to be erased from the results. WHY??

Why don't we get the same credit applied?

Thoughts???

 

Kurt, imagine if you will a bridge, and this bridge crosses over a very large gorge. In order to get credit for being a bridge, it must be 100% complete. Any section missing would make the bridge unusable. 

 

Be the bridge Kurt.

 

Drive/Shoot safe friends.

[kurtm]

Ahhhhhh.....think of a match as the gorge. Think of winning as the 100%. You can't win without all stages being complete, but if we follow your analogy, which I like by the way, and take a picture of the "non complete"  bridge, we can still see that most of the bridge does indeed exist. A missing section does not make the rest of the bridge disappear. Even when the wind made the Tacoma Straights bridge "not complete" you could still see that a bridge had been there!

 

[kurtm]

bimmer1980, I agree the D.Q. should and could be a teaching moment. That still doesn't answer why you don't get credit for what you did right......at least in my mind.

[kurtm]

Hi Larry!!!!!

[kneelingatlas]

Because in this particular sport, the architects of the rulebook decided punitive damages might serve as a deterrent to unsafe behavior.

[Chuck Anderson]

On 4/11/2019 at 3:18 PM, kurtm said:

Bishop414. Yes matches that stage D.Q. you get no points for that stage, but continue on. I do believe that most these matches still have a "match D.Q." area as well, but a stage D Q. Allows the shooter to continue on and utilize whatever points they accumulated at the end.

 

McFoto, you are not "getting points" past your D.Q. all other stages AFTER your D.Q. would be zero. So your getting what you earned and not on thing more. I do see what you are saying, but it isn't a participation trophy, you only get what you earned.

Let say you are paid by the hour, and half way through the day you are dicking around on break and hurt your leg and can't work the rest of the day. Do we forfit the money we earned for those 4 hours? Or do we get what we earned and nothing more???

 

So if shooter A DQ’s on stage 1, and shooter B DQ’s on stage 1, both on the same loose stair, they have the same potential for score.  Unless shooter A started the match on stage 1 and shooter B started on stage 2. 

[Chuck Anderson]

1 hour ago, kurtm said:

Ahhhhhh.....think of a match as the gorge. Think of winning as the 100%. You can't win without all stages being complete, but if we follow your analogy, which I like by the way, and take a picture of the "non complete"  bridge, we can still see that most of the bridge does indeed exist. A missing section does not make the rest of the bridge disappear. Even when the wind made the Tacoma Straights bridge "not complete" you could still see that a bridge had been there!

 

That’s great until Daniel Horner wins the match after DQing on the last stage.  I’ve seen more than one match where he has been far enough ahead he could have given a stage away. 

[IHAVEGAS]

1 hour ago, kurtm said:

Ahhhhhh.....think of a match as the gorge. Think of winning as the 100%. You can't win without all stages being complete, but if we follow your analogy, which I like by the way, and take a picture of the "non complete"  bridge, we can still see that most of the bridge does indeed exist. A missing section does not make the rest of the bridge disappear. Even when the wind made the Tacoma Straights bridge "not complete" you could still see that a bridge had been there!

 

 

Or think of the match as a beautiful open field of fresh cut green grass. If some knucklehead shoots your ass because the safety rules have been watered down then that is a very bad day. 

[Chuck Anderson]

DQ’s are punitive. Action shooting is based on a premise of shooter responsibility. You are responsible for yourself and your gun. Fell and broke the 180 because poor prop maintenance?  Should have been paying attention.  Shotgun dump barrel fell over because it wasn’t staked properly?  Should have been paying attention. You should be operating at whatever level you can control your body and equipment 100% of the time. If you fail, you failed. There should be consequences for that. 

 

Kurt, you talked about some of the safety reasons for a DQ. What about the other ones?  Cheating and Unsportsmanlike Conduct?  Should the competitor get to keep the stages he didn’t alter the PS time on?  Should his scores remain in the match after he got caught adjusting the scope dials on another competitors rifle?  What about the screaming match with the RO on the last stage over his 7th immaculate double of the match. 

 

Theres wide latitude in 3 Gun matches for DQs based on whatever the MD wants.  Like DQs getting all the scores tossed?  It’s easy to pick an established rule set that says that. IMGA, USPSA, UML, whatever. If you want to include scores after a DQ just write the rules for your specific match to say that. I’m betting most people won’t care one way or the other and will attend the match if they were going to. I probably won’t though.  I’m a bit rigid when it comes to safety. We have a local Practical Rifle match. It’s one of the first sports I shot.  I won’t go any more because of the MD’s lax approach to safety. He thinks he’s a range nazi, and on certain things he is. The last match I shot they had a rule about never pointing the muzzle over the berm. Cool, but he also let a guy stay in the match after he pulled his rifle out and pointed it downrange while people were still resetting. Twice, in a row, after being told not to.  The MD let him stay in and shoot the next stage. From the bed of a moving truck. No thanks, I get shot at enough at work. Don’t need it on my days off as well. 

[MikeBurgess]

I see many mentioning that winning will still require shooting a DQ free match. This is likely true but misses a large truth in the shooting sports.

Say 300 shooters at a MG match if them there are maybe 10 actually in contention to win their divisions that means 290 are there NOT to win.

Now should shooter X who shot 6 stages pretty well but sent a round over the berm on his last stage walk the prize table ahead of shooter Y that shot a mediocre match all the way through?

My opinion. Is a DQ is punitive not ment to just damage your match score but ment to make you avoid it at all cost.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[kurtm]

Ihavegas, where has anyone said "water down" the safety rules? As the "rules" stand right now we can't D.Q. untill AFTER the infraction has incurred. So, in your beautiful mown field getting shot in the ass is just as likely with erasing scores, or keeping scores. There is no change in that either way.

 

Chuck, all good points to ponder.

 

[kurtm]

I don't recall ever saying you would walk the prize table after a D.Q. maybe that is what you all assumed, but I have purposefully not made any sort of connection to that.

[bimmer1980]

2 hours ago, kurtm said:

bimmer1980, I agree the D.Q. should and could be a teaching moment. That still doesn't answer why you don't get credit for what you did right......at least in my mind.

 

Maybe because "do it right" is the only way to do it -> and that doesn´t deserve credit.

 

But i really don´t know. 

[MikeBurgess]

I don't recall ever saying you would walk the prize table after a D.Q. maybe that is what you all assumed, but I have purposefully not made any sort of connection to that.

Sorry for putting words in your mouth.

I just saw it as a odd and likely end condition of the thought experiment.

So your proposal is more leave the scores in the match but still have the shooter receive no overall match score or placement

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Ming the Merciless]

My take on erasing the results after a DQ is tied to the 'it has always been this way' answer given by many.  I suspect all of the 'punitive' intent is just wishful thinking, and the truth is, it was just much, much easier to delete the results rather than try to figure a way to neutralize the DQ'd shooters scores while keeping the data intact, back in the days of all paper scorekeeping and then DOS/MSDOS based scorekeeping that wasn't much more advanced than the paper method.  Since then it has just been inertia keeping it as 'it has always been this way.'

 

Great question Kurt~!

Edited April 13, 2019 by Ming the Merciless

[IHAVEGAS]

5 hours ago, kurtm said:

Ihavegas, where has anyone said "water down" the safety rules? As the "rules" stand right now we can't D.Q. untill AFTER the infraction has incurred.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, kurtm said:

bimmer1980, I agree the D.Q. should and could be a teaching moment. That still doesn't answer why you don't get credit for what you did right......at least in my mind.

 

........

 

I could have said water down the penalties instead of water down the rules I suppose. 

[kurtm]

Yes!!!  Your score is your score but doesn't count towards match placement due to the D.Q.