Should Rule 5.2.5.3 be Updated?

[StealthyBlagga]

Inspired by another thread. Rule 5.2.5.3 requires "retaining straps" to be closed at start:

 

5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster or magazine pouch, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command.

 

This is very old wording dating back to the days of thumb-break retention devices. Nowadays it is not uncommon to interpret "strap" to extend to modern retention devices such as hoods, but it is not typically applied to the locking mechanism of race holsters. Instead, the race-holster owner is free to start with their holster locked or unlocked according to their preference. Should it be this way? Explain your lines of thought below.

Edited August 27, 2018 by StealthyBlagga

[caspian guy]

I voted delete entirely and bring back holster tests.  However what I would prefer is just to delete the underlined section and bring back the jump off the box part of the holster test (ain't no way am I doing a flip.)

[Kraj]

There is no inequality. Everyone reads the same rule book and buys equipment that fits the division they want to play in. 

[RJH]

As i stated in the other thread,  the only logical way to solve this issue is to create a division for hooded/strap having holsters

[Akkid17]

Delete the portion about straps, it’s outdated and unnecessary. Saying you can just buy more/different gear is a cop out. 

[Garmil]

No and there is no inequity.

 

If you have a strap attach it, if you don't have a strap don't worry about it.  A strap is a strap, a hood is not a strap, a holster lock is not a strap.

[Sarge]

38 minutes ago, Garmil said:

No and there is no inequity.

 

If you have a strap attach it, if you don't have a strap don't worry about it.  A strap is a strap, a hood is not a strap, a holster lock is not a strap.

In the other thread it was pointed out that DNROI says a hood is a strap and needs to be closed

[Garmil]

I guess common sense isn't that common. if that's the case I feel differently.

[mwray]

I guess common sense isn't that common. if that's the case I feel differently.

Nowhere in the rulebook does it say anything about using common sense, and when you do use it the debates start rolling in. If you don’t follow the rulebook to a T you will be cornered up fast in this sport

[MikeBurgess]

I vote remove the underlined text. 

There is nothing worse than telling someone with a cheep nylon holster shooting their first match that they need to snap the stupid strap over their gun for the 5 seconds after make ready that it is holstered. Making their draw more complicated is not helping anything.  

Beyond that anyone shooting our game with a thumb break leather holster is probably going to want it snapped anyway because they are not using that gear to be competitive in the first place, and either way they are at no advantage to either a Kydex or race holster so why penalize them further.

 

 

[Garmil]

1 hour ago, mwray said:

Nowhere in the rulebook does it say anything about using common sense, and when you do use it the debates start rolling in. If you don’t follow the rulebook to a T you will be cornered up fast in this sport

I agree. But calling a hood a strap is not following the rulebook to a t.  

[waktasz]

All the rule does is punish new people who showed up to their first match with the wrong gear. 

 

If that is the intent, then keep it.

 

If that isn't the intent, then remove it.

 

If there is another intent for that rule, I'd like to hear it.

 

 

[teros135]

3 minutes ago, waktasz said:

All the rule does is punish new people who showed up to their first match with the wrong gear. 

 

If that is the intent, then keep it.

 

If that isn't the intent, then remove it.

 

If there is another intent for that rule, I'd like to hear it.

 

 

 

"Punish"?  How?  By requiring a shooter who owns a hooded or retention holster to actually use the hood or retention device?  Like they don't know how?  Come on!  

[ATLDave]

I can conceptually agree that, in and of itself, this is not a terribly important rule and it does have some the potential for the annoying effect wak' points out.  

 

HOWEVER, there are about a dozen other things in the rulebook I'd clean up before I messed with this one.   

[ATLDave]

1 minute ago, teros135 said:

 

"Punish"?  How?  By requiring a shooter who owns a hooded or retention holster to actually use the hood or retention device?  Like they don't know how?  Come on!  

It will make their painfully slow draw even slower, and even more painful to watch.  Everyone is punished.   

[perttime]

The intent is to ensure that pistols don't fall out of holsters that were designed to retain the pistol with flaps or straps.

 

I recently saw a guy compete in the Revolver division, using a leather thumbsnap holster. He was pretty handy.

[teros135]

2 minutes ago, ATLDave said:

It will make their painfully slow draw even slower, and even more painful to watch.  Everyone is punished.   

 

This ^^^ is the crux of the issue.  (Can we go home now and do some real shooting, dad?)

[waktasz]

38 minutes ago, teros135 said:

 

"Punish"?  How?  By requiring a shooter who owns a hooded or retention holster to actually use the hood or retention device?  Like they don't know how?  Come on!  

 

We had a new guy show up that thought he was ready to go with 4 nylon mag pouches with snap straps. He was not pleased that he had to use the straps.

 

So he cut them off

Edited August 28, 2018 by waktasz

[JAFO]

If the rule is intended to cover the time period between MR and the beep, I think it's outdated and could be removed.  Unlike what I've heard/seen of 3-Gun, we don't rely on the holster to retain a loaded gun during potential vigorous movement.  The shooter is stationary during the time in question.

 

However, if the rule was intended to say that you must use a retaining device outside of the course of fire (for race holsters and the like) to keep them from dropping unloaded guns, it needs to be clarified.

[SlvrDragon50]

Clarify that it must have at least ONE level of retention. I understand in maybe Safariland ALS (I think?) that it has no actual retention from the Kydex in which case the toggle should 100% be activated. waktasz is 100% spot on with this. If you're trying to introduce new shooters to the sport, why enforce these pointless rules, it's not IDPA. If you're experienced, you know what you're walking into by buying incorrect gear, but most people aren't even going to have a drop kydex holster with DAA racers or ghost pouches or *insert gamer gear here*. 

 

What purpose does it solve by forcing people to use straps if it already has retention.

[JAFO]

30 minutes ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

Clarify that it must have at least ONE level of retention. I understand in maybe Safariland ALS (I think?) that it has no actual retention from the Kydex in which case the toggle should 100% be activated. waktasz is 100% spot on with this. If you're trying to introduce new shooters to the sport, why enforce these pointless rules, it's not IDPA. If you're experienced, you know what you're walking into by buying incorrect gear, but most people aren't even going to have a drop kydex holster with DAA racers or ghost pouches or *insert gamer gear here*. 

 

What purpose does it solve by forcing people to use straps if it already has retention.

 

Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of 1st time shooters show up with a cheap soft nylon belt holster with a strap.  Without the strap, those have no retention.

[waktasz]

55 minutes ago, SlvrDragon50 said:

Clarify that it must have at least ONE level of retention. I understand in maybe Safariland ALS (I think?) that it has no actual retention from the Kydex in which case the toggle should 100% be activated. waktasz is 100% spot on with this. If you're trying to introduce new shooters to the sport, why enforce these pointless rules, it's not IDPA. If you're experienced, you know what you're walking into by buying incorrect gear, but most people aren't even going to have a drop kydex holster with DAA racers or ghost pouches or *insert gamer gear here*. 

 

What purpose does it solve by forcing people to use straps if it already has retention.

 

My kydex holster has no retention other than gravity 

 

Retention is not a thing the rulebook requires.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, JAFO said:

 

Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of 1st time shooters show up with a cheap soft nylon belt holster with a strap.  Without the strap, those have no retention.

they have more retention than an unlocked race holster....

and the same retention as my kydex holster.

[frgood]

I'm going to add a little more confusion. The rule (posted) is: " he position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match ". My first read of this is that the holster should be modified mid stream. Meaning if the strap, or hood, is removed prior t other start of the match then no issues. This would prevent the case were someone runs a strapt on their first stage and, then, get mad and tosses it for subsequent stages. Thus an equipment change to gain advantage in the middle of a match (gain advantage over themselves).

 

I have no idea on the history on this rule and would be curious.

 

[JAFO]

40 minutes ago, frgood said:

I'm going to add a little more confusion. The rule (posted) is: " he position of holsters and allied equipment on the belt must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match ". My first read of this is that the holster should be modified mid stream. Meaning if the strap, or hood, is removed prior t other start of the match then no issues. This would prevent the case were someone runs a strapt on their first stage and, then, get mad and tosses it for subsequent stages. Thus an equipment change to gain advantage in the middle of a match (gain advantage over themselves).

 

I have no idea on the history on this rule and would be curious.

 

I think the "during a match" portion is aimed more at the position of holsters and allied equipment.  To prevent someone from running a mag pouch up front for 4 stages, then moving it to the side (or removing it altogether) for a stage that has a prone position.